And thats the loophole in the NFL Rulebook

jetglass · 02-05-2012, 10:56 PM

On the Patriots last drive, not on the last play (since game cant end on a defensive penalty) but on a few of their last plays the Giants should have put their entire 53 man roster on the field to play defense in order to milk the clock. Sounds crazy right? But its true. Ive said it all year, it doesnt make any sense how there is no such thing as a a pre-snap too many men on the field penalty on the defense. Its only on the defense once the ball is snapped.

To combat this, the best the Patriots can do is snap the ball and spike it which would run 2 seconds off the clock. Do that enough times and you leave the Patriots with 1 play left to score (since game cant end on a defensive penalty).

As you saw, this was critical on the Pats last drive. With 17 seconds left, they had a play run 8 seconds off the clock where the Giants have 12 men on the field. 5 Yard penalty on the Giants. But good play for the Giants! Why wouldnt they trade the 5 yards for an 8 second runoff?

To combat this loophole, either:
A. Make too many men on the field a pre snap penalty on defenses (just like it is on the offense), or
B. As my roomate suggested, make too many men on the field penalty in the last 2 minutes of the half, so that the offense should be awarded the yards AND the clock should revert to the amount of time that was left before the play started.

Joe W. Namath · 02-05-2012, 10:58 PM

I was thinking the same thing. Gotta put the time back on the clock there.

SAR I · 02-05-2012, 10:59 PM

[QUOTE=Joe W. Namath;4359801]I was thinking the same thing. Gotta put the time back on the clock there.[/QUOTE]

+1.

We were screaming at the TV "put 20 guys back there!"

Would have been hysterical if it ended that way. You can bet Belichick will do that now that he's seen it in action.

SAR I

DDNYjets · 02-05-2012, 11:00 PM

YES.

I was thinking the exact same thing. That is an injustice. But when every other rule is bias towards the offense, it is nice to see something like that settle the score..

Down, Set, Haiku · 02-05-2012, 11:00 PM

[QUOTE=jetglass;4359796]On the Patriots last drive, not on the last play (since game cant end on a defensive penalty) but on a few of their last plays the Giants should have put their entire 53 man roster on the field to play defense in order to milk the clock. Sounds crazy right? But its true. Ive said it all year, it doesnt make any sense how there is no such thing as a a pre-snap too many men on the field penalty on the defense. Its only on the defense once the ball is snapped.

To combat this, the best the Patriots can do is snap the ball and spike it which would run 2 seconds off the clock. Do that enough times and you leave the Patriots with 1 play left to score (since game cant end on a defensive penalty).

As you saw, this was critical on the Pats last drive. With 17 seconds left, they had a play run 8 seconds off the clock where the Giants have 12 men on the field. 5 Yard penalty on the Giants. But good play for the Giants! Why wouldnt they trade the 5 yards for an 8 second runoff?

To combat this loophole, either:
A. Make too many men on the field a pre snap penalty on defenses (just like it is on the offense), or
B. As my roomate suggested, make too many men on the field penalty in the last 2 minutes of the half, so that the offense should be awarded the yards AND the clock should revert to the amount of time that was left before the play started.[/QUOTE]

+1 Thought the same exact thing myself.

FreshBaked 24 7 · 02-05-2012, 11:02 PM

[QUOTE=SAR I;4359805]+1.

We were screaming at the TV "put 20 guys back there!"

Would have been hysterical if it ended that way. You can bet Belichick will do that now that he's seen it in action.

SAR I[/QUOTE]

"With 20 seconds to go, it seems that the patriots punt team has joined the defense on the field.... this won't end well"

sec318 · 02-05-2012, 11:10 PM

good point. it should be the oppisite of the offensive penelty in the last 2 minutes where there is a 15 second runnoff. Just put the time back on the clock. The reason they dont is because it is considered a live ball foul.[QUOTE=jetglass;4359796]On the Patriots last drive, not on the last play (since game cant end on a defensive penalty) but on a few of their last plays the Giants should have put their entire 53 man roster on the field to play defense in order to milk the clock. Sounds crazy right? But its true. Ive said it all year, it doesnt make any sense how there is no such thing as a a pre-snap too many men on the field penalty on the defense. Its only on the defense once the ball is snapped.

To combat this, the best the Patriots can do is snap the ball and spike it which would run 2 seconds off the clock. Do that enough times and you leave the Patriots with 1 play left to score (since game cant end on a defensive penalty).

As you saw, this was critical on the Pats last drive. With 17 seconds left, they had a play run 8 seconds off the clock where the Giants have 12 men on the field. 5 Yard penalty on the Giants. But good play for the Giants! Why wouldnt they trade the 5 yards for an 8 second runoff?

To combat this loophole, either:
A. Make too many men on the field a pre snap penalty on defenses (just like it is on the offense), or
B. As my roomate suggested, make too many men on the field penalty in the last 2 minutes of the half, so that the offense should be awarded the yards AND the clock should revert to the amount of time that was left before the play started.[/QUOTE]

Big L · 02-05-2012, 11:12 PM

Your premise assumes the Pats knew there were 12 men before the snap? If so, then the Pats should throw a high risk play. If its picked, doesn't matter, still get the ball and 5 yards. What if you get a PI call? First down at the spot.

If you know there's a penalty on the D before any snap, then you can do whatever you want with that play. You will, at worst, always maintain possession with penalty yards tacked on.

crasherino · 02-05-2012, 11:16 PM

[QUOTE=Big L;4359839]Your premise assumes the Pats knew there were 12 men before the snap? If so, then the Pats should throw a high risk play. If its picked, doesn't matter, still get the ball and 5 yards. What if you get a PI call? First down at the spot.

If you know there's a penalty on the D before any snap, then you can do whatever you want with that play. You will, at worst, always maintain possession with penalty yards tacked on.[/QUOTE]

If the pats knew that there would be a penalty, they would simply clock the ball.....I don't think they can do that though because you can't be sure that it was called or that there were indeed 12 guys. Plus, it's pretty hard to complete that deep ball with 2 deep safeties and a blitz coming.

It's definitely a glitch in the rules that could use to be addressed.

3rd_Times_A_Charm · 02-05-2012, 11:19 PM

I was thinking the same thing. In that situation, what incentive does a coach have to not put 12 men on the field on every single play? You have a much better chance of stopping the deep ball and all that happens is they gain 5 yards. The worst possible outcome is that you get a pick and it gets called back. But, with 20 seconds left with the other team on the 40, 12 men on the field until the end of the game is the smart play. All you need to do is prevent the deep ball.

Good coaching from Coughlin.

Dimitri_0515 · 02-05-2012, 11:19 PM

Smart play

jetglass · 02-05-2012, 11:20 PM

[QUOTE=Big L;4359839]Your premise assumes the Pats knew there were 12 men before the snap? If so, then the Pats should throw a high risk play. If its picked, doesn't matter, still get the ball and 5 yards. What if you get a PI call? First down at the spot.

If you know there's a penalty on the D before any snap, then you can do whatever you want with that play. You will, at worst, always maintain possession with penalty yards tacked on.[/QUOTE]

So what? That high risk play will come against more than 11 defenders on the field? The yards dont matter at that point, or matter minimally compared to the precious few seconds left on the clock.

frankiepapa · 02-05-2012, 11:21 PM

There are so many rules in this great sport and some are just so complex that the referees have no shot anymore...fumbles that are recovered but are not fumbles because the whistle blew, offsides if the ol moves but was provoked...

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

jetglass · 02-05-2012, 11:22 PM

[QUOTE=SAR I;4359805]+1.

We were screaming at the TV "put 20 guys back there!"

Would have been hysterical if it ended that way. You can bet Belichick will do that now that he's seen it in action.

SAR I[/QUOTE]

Haha. Pretty much the same thing here. Except I said put your whole 53 man roster on the field. Even call up your practice squad players onto the field and make it 11 on 60.

jetglass · 02-05-2012, 11:23 PM

[QUOTE=3rd_Times_A_Charm;4359873]I was thinking the same thing. In that situation, what incentive does a coach have to not put 12 men on the field on every single play? You have a much better chance of stopping the deep ball and all that happens is they gain 5 yards. The worst possible outcome is that you get a pick and it gets called back. But, with 20 seconds left with the other team on the 40, 12 men on the field until the end of the game is the smart play. All you need to do is prevent the deep ball.

Good coaching from Coughlin.[/QUOTE]

It was okay coaching from couglin. Good coaching would have been to put maybe 13-15 defenders on the field. Or at least as many more as possible without the Patriots noticing too easily.

movethechains · 02-05-2012, 11:33 PM

It sounds like everyone thought the same thing as it happen with like 9 seconds left in the game, but did it ever occur to anybody before tonight's game. I can't say it did to me. What a great way to stick it to Bill Bellicheck, I would've loved to see Coughlin say "hey, that works" and then do it two or so more time before ending the game on the next play. I think the look on BB face would have been priceless.

crasherino · 02-06-2012, 06:29 AM

[QUOTE=3rd_Times_A_Charm;4359873]I was thinking the same thing. In that situation, what incentive does a coach have to not put 12 men on the field on every single play? You have a much better chance of stopping the deep ball and all that happens is they gain 5 yards. The worst possible outcome is that you get a pick and it gets called back. But, with 20 seconds left with the other team on the 40, 12 men on the field until the end of the game is the smart play. All you need to do is prevent the deep ball.

Good coaching from Coughlin.[/QUOTE]

It wasn't good coaching by Coughlin - Tuck just didn't get off the field in time. It just made you realize the potential for abuse of the way the rile is written. The giants, though, did not really take advantage of it.

Snell41 · 02-06-2012, 10:20 AM

Buddy Ryan used to do this all the time, he actually called it the "Polish defense". This loophole has been around for ages.

I just found a write up on it.

[url]http://smartfootball.com/defense/buddy-ryans-polish-goalline-tactic[/url]

jetglass · 02-06-2012, 10:28 AM

[QUOTE=movethechains;4359911]It sounds like everyone thought the same thing as it happen with like 9 seconds left in the game, but did it ever occur to anybody before tonight's game. I can't say it did to me. What a great way to stick it to Bill Bellicheck, I would've loved to see Coughlin say "hey, that works" and then do it two or so more time before ending the game on the next play. I think the look on BB face would have been priceless.[/QUOTE]

I did!!!! If you look back at our message board history you will see I started a post around weeks 15 or 16 I think it was where I started a thread involving NFL rules that should be changed. One of them I suggested, was making too many men on the field a pre snap penalty on the defense, just like it already is in the offense.

When I started this post, I wasnt thinking strictly from a time wasting perspective like the Giants did, but more from a strategic perspective in not allowing the offense to know which defenders would be on the field on a any given play. I was saying just put 20 guys in your defensive huddle, and once you see their formation you run 9 guys off just before the snap.

jetglass · 02-06-2012, 10:29 AM

[QUOTE=Snell41;4360391]Buddy Ryan used to do this all the time, he actually called it the "Polish defense". This loophole has been around for ages.

I just found a write up on it.

[url]http://smartfootball.com/defense/buddy-ryans-polish-goalline-tactic[/url][/QUOTE]

Nice find!

02-05-2012, 10:56 PM	#1
jetglass Veteran Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,538	And thats the loophole in the NFL Rulebook On the Patriots last drive, not on the last play (since game cant end on a defensive penalty) but on a few of their last plays the Giants should have put their entire 53 man roster on the field to play defense in order to milk the clock. Sounds crazy right? But its true. Ive said it all year, it doesnt make any sense how there is no such thing as a a pre-snap too many men on the field penalty on the defense. Its only on the defense once the ball is snapped. To combat this, the best the Patriots can do is snap the ball and spike it which would run 2 seconds off the clock. Do that enough times and you leave the Patriots with 1 play left to score (since game cant end on a defensive penalty). As you saw, this was critical on the Pats last drive. With 17 seconds left, they had a play run 8 seconds off the clock where the Giants have 12 men on the field. 5 Yard penalty on the Giants. But good play for the Giants! Why wouldnt they trade the 5 yards for an 8 second runoff? To combat this loophole, either: A. Make too many men on the field a pre snap penalty on defenses (just like it is on the offense), or B. As my roomate suggested, make too many men on the field penalty in the last 2 minutes of the half, so that the offense should be awarded the yards AND the clock should revert to the amount of time that was left before the play started.

02-05-2012, 10:58 PM	#2
Joe W. Namath Darrell Bevell for HC in 2014. All Pro Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Boynton Beach, FL Posts: 7,868	I was thinking the same thing. Gotta put the time back on the clock there.

02-05-2012, 10:59 PM	#3
SAR I Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 38,711	[QUOTE=Joe W. Namath;4359801]I was thinking the same thing. Gotta put the time back on the clock there.[/QUOTE] +1. We were screaming at the TV "put 20 guys back there!" Would have been hysterical if it ended that way. You can bet Belichick will do that now that he's seen it in action. SAR I

02-05-2012, 11:00 PM	#4
DDNYjets Hall Of Fame Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: New York Posts: 12,579	YES. I was thinking the exact same thing. That is an injustice. But when every other rule is bias towards the offense, it is nice to see something like that settle the score..

02-05-2012, 11:00 PM	#5
Down, Set, Haiku Is doling out Izuna Drops Rookie Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 540	[QUOTE=jetglass;4359796]On the Patriots last drive, not on the last play (since game cant end on a defensive penalty) but on a few of their last plays the Giants should have put their entire 53 man roster on the field to play defense in order to milk the clock. Sounds crazy right? But its true. Ive said it all year, it doesnt make any sense how there is no such thing as a a pre-snap too many men on the field penalty on the defense. Its only on the defense once the ball is snapped. To combat this, the best the Patriots can do is snap the ball and spike it which would run 2 seconds off the clock. Do that enough times and you leave the Patriots with 1 play left to score (since game cant end on a defensive penalty). As you saw, this was critical on the Pats last drive. With 17 seconds left, they had a play run 8 seconds off the clock where the Giants have 12 men on the field. 5 Yard penalty on the Giants. But good play for the Giants! Why wouldnt they trade the 5 yards for an 8 second runoff? To combat this loophole, either: A. Make too many men on the field a pre snap penalty on defenses (just like it is on the offense), or B. As my roomate suggested, make too many men on the field penalty in the last 2 minutes of the half, so that the offense should be awarded the yards AND the clock should revert to the amount of time that was left before the play started.[/QUOTE] +1 Thought the same exact thing myself.

02-05-2012, 11:02 PM	#6
FreshBaked 24 7 wait...wha? 0_o All League Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Midland Park, NJ Posts: 3,697	[QUOTE=SAR I;4359805]+1. We were screaming at the TV "put 20 guys back there!" Would have been hysterical if it ended that way. You can bet Belichick will do that now that he's seen it in action. SAR I[/QUOTE] "With 20 seconds to go, it seems that the patriots punt team has joined the defense on the field.... this won't end well"

02-05-2012, 11:10 PM	#7
sec318 Veteran Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,147	good point. it should be the oppisite of the offensive penelty in the last 2 minutes where there is a 15 second runnoff. Just put the time back on the clock. The reason they dont is because it is considered a live ball foul.[QUOTE=jetglass;4359796]On the Patriots last drive, not on the last play (since game cant end on a defensive penalty) but on a few of their last plays the Giants should have put their entire 53 man roster on the field to play defense in order to milk the clock. Sounds crazy right? But its true. Ive said it all year, it doesnt make any sense how there is no such thing as a a pre-snap too many men on the field penalty on the defense. Its only on the defense once the ball is snapped. To combat this, the best the Patriots can do is snap the ball and spike it which would run 2 seconds off the clock. Do that enough times and you leave the Patriots with 1 play left to score (since game cant end on a defensive penalty). As you saw, this was critical on the Pats last drive. With 17 seconds left, they had a play run 8 seconds off the clock where the Giants have 12 men on the field. 5 Yard penalty on the Giants. But good play for the Giants! Why wouldnt they trade the 5 yards for an 8 second runoff? To combat this loophole, either: A. Make too many men on the field a pre snap penalty on defenses (just like it is on the offense), or B. As my roomate suggested, make too many men on the field penalty in the last 2 minutes of the half, so that the offense should be awarded the yards AND the clock should revert to the amount of time that was left before the play started.[/QUOTE]

02-05-2012, 11:12 PM	#8
Big L No post count, no peace! No post count, no peace! Veteran Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: It's all relative Posts: 1,191	Your premise assumes the Pats knew there were 12 men before the snap? If so, then the Pats should throw a high risk play. If its picked, doesn't matter, still get the ball and 5 yards. What if you get a PI call? First down at the spot. If you know there's a penalty on the D before any snap, then you can do whatever you want with that play. You will, at worst, always maintain possession with penalty yards tacked on.

02-05-2012, 11:16 PM	#9
crasherino Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: NYC Posts: 16,937	[QUOTE=Big L;4359839]Your premise assumes the Pats knew there were 12 men before the snap? If so, then the Pats should throw a high risk play. If its picked, doesn't matter, still get the ball and 5 yards. What if you get a PI call? First down at the spot. If you know there's a penalty on the D before any snap, then you can do whatever you want with that play. You will, at worst, always maintain possession with penalty yards tacked on.[/QUOTE] If the pats knew that there would be a penalty, they would simply clock the ball.....I don't think they can do that though because you can't be sure that it was called or that there were indeed 12 guys. Plus, it's pretty hard to complete that deep ball with 2 deep safeties and a blitz coming. It's definitely a glitch in the rules that could use to be addressed.

02-05-2012, 11:19 PM	#10
3rd_Times_A_Charm Practice Squad Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 398	I was thinking the same thing. In that situation, what incentive does a coach have to not put 12 men on the field on every single play? You have a much better chance of stopping the deep ball and all that happens is they gain 5 yards. The worst possible outcome is that you get a pick and it gets called back. But, with 20 seconds left with the other team on the 40, 12 men on the field until the end of the game is the smart play. All you need to do is prevent the deep ball. Good coaching from Coughlin.

02-05-2012, 11:19 PM	#11
Dimitri_0515 Banned Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 11,182	Smart play

02-05-2012, 11:20 PM	#12
jetglass Veteran Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,538	[QUOTE=Big L;4359839]Your premise assumes the Pats knew there were 12 men before the snap? If so, then the Pats should throw a high risk play. If its picked, doesn't matter, still get the ball and 5 yards. What if you get a PI call? First down at the spot. If you know there's a penalty on the D before any snap, then you can do whatever you want with that play. You will, at worst, always maintain possession with penalty yards tacked on.[/QUOTE] So what? That high risk play will come against more than 11 defenders on the field? The yards dont matter at that point, or matter minimally compared to the precious few seconds left on the clock.

02-05-2012, 11:21 PM	#13
frankiepapa hopes to bring back braylon and holmes All League Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,532	There are so many rules in this great sport and some are just so complex that the referees have no shot anymore...fumbles that are recovered but are not fumbles because the whistle blew, offsides if the ol moves but was provoked... Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

02-05-2012, 11:22 PM	#14
jetglass Veteran Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,538	[QUOTE=SAR I;4359805]+1. We were screaming at the TV "put 20 guys back there!" Would have been hysterical if it ended that way. You can bet Belichick will do that now that he's seen it in action. SAR I[/QUOTE] Haha. Pretty much the same thing here. Except I said put your whole 53 man roster on the field. Even call up your practice squad players onto the field and make it 11 on 60.

02-05-2012, 11:23 PM	#15
jetglass Veteran Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,538	[QUOTE=3rd_Times_A_Charm;4359873]I was thinking the same thing. In that situation, what incentive does a coach have to not put 12 men on the field on every single play? You have a much better chance of stopping the deep ball and all that happens is they gain 5 yards. The worst possible outcome is that you get a pick and it gets called back. But, with 20 seconds left with the other team on the 40, 12 men on the field until the end of the game is the smart play. All you need to do is prevent the deep ball. Good coaching from Coughlin.[/QUOTE] It was okay coaching from couglin. Good coaching would have been to put maybe 13-15 defenders on the field. Or at least as many more as possible without the Patriots noticing too easily.

02-05-2012, 11:33 PM	#16
movethechains Rookie Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 873	It sounds like everyone thought the same thing as it happen with like 9 seconds left in the game, but did it ever occur to anybody before tonight's game. I can't say it did to me. What a great way to stick it to Bill Bellicheck, I would've loved to see Coughlin say "hey, that works" and then do it two or so more time before ending the game on the next play. I think the look on BB face would have been priceless.

02-06-2012, 06:29 AM	#17
crasherino Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: NYC Posts: 16,937	[QUOTE=3rd_Times_A_Charm;4359873]I was thinking the same thing. In that situation, what incentive does a coach have to not put 12 men on the field on every single play? You have a much better chance of stopping the deep ball and all that happens is they gain 5 yards. The worst possible outcome is that you get a pick and it gets called back. But, with 20 seconds left with the other team on the 40, 12 men on the field until the end of the game is the smart play. All you need to do is prevent the deep ball. Good coaching from Coughlin.[/QUOTE] It wasn't good coaching by Coughlin - Tuck just didn't get off the field in time. It just made you realize the potential for abuse of the way the rile is written. The giants, though, did not really take advantage of it.

02-06-2012, 10:20 AM	#18
Snell41 Veteran Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,522	Buddy Ryan used to do this all the time, he actually called it the "Polish defense". This loophole has been around for ages. I just found a write up on it. [url]http://smartfootball.com/defense/buddy-ryans-polish-goalline-tactic[/url]

02-06-2012, 10:28 AM	#19
jetglass Veteran Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,538	[QUOTE=movethechains;4359911]It sounds like everyone thought the same thing as it happen with like 9 seconds left in the game, but did it ever occur to anybody before tonight's game. I can't say it did to me. What a great way to stick it to Bill Bellicheck, I would've loved to see Coughlin say "hey, that works" and then do it two or so more time before ending the game on the next play. I think the look on BB face would have been priceless.[/QUOTE] I did!!!! If you look back at our message board history you will see I started a post around weeks 15 or 16 I think it was where I started a thread involving NFL rules that should be changed. One of them I suggested, was making too many men on the field a pre snap penalty on the defense, just like it already is in the offense. When I started this post, I wasnt thinking strictly from a time wasting perspective like the Giants did, but more from a strategic perspective in not allowing the offense to know which defenders would be on the field on a any given play. I was saying just put 20 guys in your defensive huddle, and once you see their formation you run 9 guys off just before the snap.

02-06-2012, 10:29 AM	#20
jetglass Veteran Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,538	[QUOTE=Snell41;4360391]Buddy Ryan used to do this all the time, he actually called it the "Polish defense". This loophole has been around for ages. I just found a write up on it. [url]http://smartfootball.com/defense/buddy-ryans-polish-goalline-tactic[/url][/QUOTE] Nice find!