Obama shielding Holder on F&F Docs...

AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite · 06-20-2012, 10:58 AM

Thoughts?

I've been following the story somewhat off and on... Not many of the top party (R) wanted Issa to pursue the 'contempt' avenue but Obama jumping in to protect him just reeks that there's something of merit in the documents that leads up the chain...

Perhaps I'm overreacting...

:i_dont_kn

brady's a catcher · 06-20-2012, 11:09 AM

No surprise, 2 turds from the same toilet. Holder is every bit as incompetent as Ashcroft, which is saying something.

chiefst2000 · 06-20-2012, 11:11 AM

Two years in to this investigation and we don't know who authorized it. We don't know who knew about it. We only know who is covering it up. We have a dead border patrol officer and hundreds of dead Mexican civilians. How hard is it to follow the chain of command up to whoever authorized this thing? The investigation should have been over in a week if it actually happened. This is politics at their ugliest.

cr726 · 06-20-2012, 11:53 AM

[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4496140]Two years in to this investigation and we don't know who authorized it. We don't know who knew about it. We only know who is covering it up. We have a dead border patrol officer and hundreds of dead Mexican civilians. How hard is it to follow the chain of command up to whoever authorized this thing? The investigation should have been over in a week if it actually happened. This is politics at their ugliest.[/QUOTE]

That's not true, the Phoenix ATF and the AUSA stated it was main Justice. Holder has turned over a ton of stuff here and please can we stop pretending Issa is not trying to get as much attention for himself as possible.

chiefst2000 · 06-20-2012, 12:10 PM

[QUOTE=cr726;4496232]That's not true, the Phoenix ATF and the AUSA stated it was main Justice. Holder has turned over a ton of stuff here and please can we stop pretending Issa is not trying to get as much attention for himself as possible.[/QUOTE]

Huh? I can't understand your post. Who specifically authorized Fast and Furious? How high up did it go? Holder turned over less then 5% of the documents requested and most of that was redacted. Where do you get your information from?

shakin318 · 06-20-2012, 12:23 PM

[QUOTE=cr726;4496232]That's not true, the Phoenix ATF and the AUSA stated it was main Justice. Holder has turned over a ton of stuff here and please can we stop pretending Issa is not trying to get as much attention for himself as possible.[/QUOTE]

This is laughable. Give it up already. The president just invoked executive privilege for pete's sake...clearly there is something they are hiding....and don't give us that "it would affect an ongoing investigation" crap. This is a huge scandal...and Obama/Holder look horrible.

AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite · 06-20-2012, 12:36 PM

[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4496266]Huh? I can't understand your post. Who specifically authorized Fast and Furious? How high up did it go? Holder turned over less then 5% of the documents requested and most of that was redacted. Where do you get your information from?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=shakin318;4496284]This is laughable. Give it up already. The president just invoked executive privilege for pete's sake...clearly there is something they are hiding....and don't give us that "it would affect an ongoing investigation" crap. This is a huge scandal...and Obama/Holder look horrible.[/QUOTE]

Okay, so I'm obviously not completely crazy...

I keep hearing over and over how Holder went into that meeting and offered unprecedented levels of access...

What is the issue with handing over all the documentation...

I simply don't understand why it should be kept from a congressional committee... From the public, whatever... That's for another time and place...

But Congress should be able to have eyes on whatever they deem fit, that's a portion of their responsibility within our government...

chiefst2000 · 06-20-2012, 12:46 PM

[QUOTE=AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite;4496293]Okay, so I'm obviously not completely crazy...

I keep hearing over and over how Holder went into that meeting and offered unprecedented levels of access...

What is the issue with handing over all the documentation...

I simply don't understand why it should be kept from a congressional committee... From the public, whatever... That's for another time and place...

But Congress should be able to have eyes on whatever they deem fit, that's a portion of their responsibility within our government...[/QUOTE]

There are no real excuses. Their claim is that the documents contain sensitive material that relates to an ongoing investigation hence they wont turn them over. It had been more then a year of waiting on the documents. When the House Committee finally threatened to hold him in contempt Obama issues an "executive privilege" in order to give Holder cover. There have been numerous government agents and bureaucrats in to testify. Most pled the 5th and refused to answer any questions.

GreenGeek · 06-20-2012, 12:59 PM

Good thread with level heads.

I think the questions from Grassley hit the point. Since executive privilege covers only THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF (not others in the exec branch):

Why is this pertinent to matters on which the pres claims no knowledge from documents he's never seen?

The documents in question are from the period following the release of a Feb 4 2011 letter stating that noone in justice knew of the operation. That letter was 'retracted' as being incorrect.

My best guess is that the missing documents show the politics over the selectively released or hidden information and the motives behind it. Two points:

In watergate the coverup was the issue, not the breakin.
It never matters how many docs are released, it matters WHICH docs are released.

chiefst2000 · 06-20-2012, 01:15 PM

[QUOTE=GreenGeek;4496307]Good thread with level heads.

I think the questions from Grassley hit the point. Since executive privilege covers only THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF (not others in the exec branch):

Why is this pertinent to matters on which the pres claims no knowledge from documents he's never seen?

The documents in question are from the period following the release of a Feb 4 2011 letter stating that noone in justice knew of the operation. That letter was 'retracted' as being incorrect.

My best guess is that the missing documents show the politics over the selectively released or hidden information and the motives behind it. Two points:

In watergate the coverup was the issue, not the breakin.
It never matters how many docs are released, it matters WHICH docs are released.[/QUOTE]

Executive privilege technically also covers white house staff. Still allows for plausible deniability from the president regarding his knowledge of the program.

shakin318 · 06-20-2012, 01:27 PM

[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4496322]Executive privilege technically also covers white house staff. Still allows for plausible deniability from the president regarding his knowledge of the program.[/QUOTE]

Can also make him complicit in the coverup of the murder of Brian Terry.

cr726 · 06-20-2012, 01:27 PM

[QUOTE=shakin318;4496284]This is laughable. Give it up already. The president just invoked executive privilege for pete's sake...clearly there is something they are hiding....and don't give us that "it would affect an ongoing investigation" crap. This is a huge scandal...and Obama/Holder look horrible.[/QUOTE]

Wonderful another rightwinger wants to play.

Operation Wide Receiver was before this and where is your outrage? Issa is an attention whore and is being as difficult as possible to keep this and himself in the press.

The Acting head of the ATF ok'd the operation and there were assistant u.s attorneys involved too. The operation was awful, but for you to believe the President or Holder were the point men is untrue.

shakin318 · 06-20-2012, 01:32 PM

[QUOTE=cr726;4496336]Wonderful another rightwinger wants to play.

Operation Wide Receiver was before this and where is your outrage? Issa is an attention whore and is being as difficult as possible to keep this and himself in the press.

The Acting head of the ATF ok'd the operation and there were assistant u.s attorneys involved too. The operation was awful, but for you to believe the President or Holder were the point men is untrue.[/QUOTE]

If that's the case, they can absolve themselves by releasing the legally requested documents. Instead, Holder begged Obama to invoke executive privilege.

chiefst2000 · 06-20-2012, 01:42 PM

[QUOTE=cr726;4496336]Wonderful another rightwinger wants to play.

Operation Wide Receiver was before this and where is your outrage? Issa is an attention whore and is being as difficult as possible to keep this and himself in the press.

The Acting head of the ATF ok'd the operation and there were assistant u.s attorneys involved too. The operation was awful, but for you to believe the President or Holder were the point men is untrue.[/QUOTE]

You have no idea who was involved or how high up it goes. Why wouldn't the justice department turn over the documents if they weren't hiding anything. It defies logic. This is the same "justice department" now "investigating" the national security leaks coming out of the Obama administration. I think we will see lots of officials pleading the 5th again there.

DeanPatsFan · 06-20-2012, 01:43 PM

The most transparent administration in US history.....

brady's a catcher · 06-20-2012, 01:46 PM

[QUOTE=cr726;4496336]Wonderful another rightwinger wants to play.

Operation Wide Receiver was before this and where is your outrage? Issa is an attention whore and is being as difficult as possible to keep this and himself in the press.

The Acting head of the ATF ok'd the operation and there were assistant u.s attorneys involved too. The operation was awful, but for you to believe the President or Holder were the point men is untrue.[/QUOTE]

Why the Holder sandbagging then?

acepepe · 06-20-2012, 01:54 PM

[QUOTE=cr726;4496232]That's not true, the Phoenix ATF and the AUSA stated it was main Justice. [B]Holder has turned over a ton of stuff [/B]here and please can we stop pretending Issa is not trying to get as much attention for himself as possible.[/QUOTE]

(!) International sign of an azz. You're in law enforcement???? A brother officer is killed and you don't want all the fact brought in light??

cr726 · 06-20-2012, 01:59 PM

Yes I do have an idea and Issa is as much to blame as anyone. Believe me DOJ has been all over every agency during this debacle, I have firsthand experience with them.

[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4496358]You have no idea who was involved or how high up it goes. Why wouldn't the justice department turn over the documents if they weren't hiding anything. It defies logic. This is the same "justice department" now "investigating" the national security leaks coming out of the Obama administration. I think we will see lots of officials pleading the 5th again there.[/QUOTE]

acepepe · 06-20-2012, 01:59 PM

Congress WOMAAAN, Sheila Jackson Lee has all the answers, Thank GOD!!!! It's

[SIZE="4"][B]BUSHES FAULT!!!!!![/B][/SIZE]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Bk8Dv419H-4#[/url]!

shakin318 · 06-20-2012, 02:03 PM

[QUOTE=cr726;4496376]Yes I do have an idea and Issa is as much to blame as anyone. Believe me DOJ has been all over every agency during this debacle, I have firsthand experience with them.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Issa is to blame for doing his job by its very definition as the Chairman of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee.

06-20-2012, 10:58 AM	#1
AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite is all out of fuCks to give... All Pro Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 7,452	Obama shielding Holder on F&F Docs... Thoughts? I've been following the story somewhat off and on... Not many of the top party (R) wanted Issa to pursue the 'contempt' avenue but Obama jumping in to protect him just reeks that there's something of merit in the documents that leads up the chain... Perhaps I'm overreacting... :i_dont_kn

06-20-2012, 01:59 PM	#19
acepepe All League Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,427	Congress WOMAAAN, Sheila Jackson Lee has all the answers, Thank GOD!!!! It's [SIZE="4"][B]BUSHES FAULT!!!!!![/B][/SIZE] [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Bk8Dv419H-4#[/url]! Last edited by acepepe; 06-20-2012 at 02:04 PM.

06-20-2012, 11:09 AM	#2
brady's a catcher R.I.P Goofy Maloof All Pro Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 6,696	No surprise, 2 turds from the same toilet. Holder is every bit as incompetent as Ashcroft, which is saying something.

06-20-2012, 11:11 AM	#3
chiefst2000 Champion of Common Sense All Pro Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 5,836	Two years in to this investigation and we don't know who authorized it. We don't know who knew about it. We only know who is covering it up. We have a dead border patrol officer and hundreds of dead Mexican civilians. How hard is it to follow the chain of command up to whoever authorized this thing? The investigation should have been over in a week if it actually happened. This is politics at their ugliest.

06-20-2012, 11:53 AM	#4
cr726 Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 13,325	[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4496140]Two years in to this investigation and we don't know who authorized it. We don't know who knew about it. We only know who is covering it up. We have a dead border patrol officer and hundreds of dead Mexican civilians. How hard is it to follow the chain of command up to whoever authorized this thing? The investigation should have been over in a week if it actually happened. This is politics at their ugliest.[/QUOTE] That's not true, the Phoenix ATF and the AUSA stated it was main Justice. Holder has turned over a ton of stuff here and please can we stop pretending Issa is not trying to get as much attention for himself as possible.

06-20-2012, 12:10 PM	#5
chiefst2000 Champion of Common Sense All Pro Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 5,836	[QUOTE=cr726;4496232]That's not true, the Phoenix ATF and the AUSA stated it was main Justice. Holder has turned over a ton of stuff here and please can we stop pretending Issa is not trying to get as much attention for himself as possible.[/QUOTE] Huh? I can't understand your post. Who specifically authorized Fast and Furious? How high up did it go? Holder turned over less then 5% of the documents requested and most of that was redacted. Where do you get your information from?

06-20-2012, 12:23 PM	#6
shakin318 Beslubbering beef-witted lout Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Funkytown Posts: 7,181	[QUOTE=cr726;4496232]That's not true, the Phoenix ATF and the AUSA stated it was main Justice. Holder has turned over a ton of stuff here and please can we stop pretending Issa is not trying to get as much attention for himself as possible.[/QUOTE] This is laughable. Give it up already. The president just invoked executive privilege for pete's sake...clearly there is something they are hiding....and don't give us that "it would affect an ongoing investigation" crap. This is a huge scandal...and Obama/Holder look horrible.

06-20-2012, 12:36 PM	#7
AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite is all out of fuCks to give... All Pro Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 7,452	[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4496266]Huh? I can't understand your post. Who specifically authorized Fast and Furious? How high up did it go? Holder turned over less then 5% of the documents requested and most of that was redacted. Where do you get your information from?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=shakin318;4496284]This is laughable. Give it up already. The president just invoked executive privilege for pete's sake...clearly there is something they are hiding....and don't give us that "it would affect an ongoing investigation" crap. This is a huge scandal...and Obama/Holder look horrible.[/QUOTE] Okay, so I'm obviously not completely crazy... I keep hearing over and over how Holder went into that meeting and offered unprecedented levels of access... What is the issue with handing over all the documentation... I simply don't understand why it should be kept from a congressional committee... From the public, whatever... That's for another time and place... But Congress should be able to have eyes on whatever they deem fit, that's a portion of their responsibility within our government...

06-20-2012, 12:46 PM	#8
chiefst2000 Champion of Common Sense All Pro Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 5,836	[QUOTE=AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite;4496293]Okay, so I'm obviously not completely crazy... I keep hearing over and over how Holder went into that meeting and offered unprecedented levels of access... What is the issue with handing over all the documentation... I simply don't understand why it should be kept from a congressional committee... From the public, whatever... That's for another time and place... But Congress should be able to have eyes on whatever they deem fit, that's a portion of their responsibility within our government...[/QUOTE] There are no real excuses. Their claim is that the documents contain sensitive material that relates to an ongoing investigation hence they wont turn them over. It had been more then a year of waiting on the documents. When the House Committee finally threatened to hold him in contempt Obama issues an "executive privilege" in order to give Holder cover. There have been numerous government agents and bureaucrats in to testify. Most pled the 5th and refused to answer any questions.

06-20-2012, 12:59 PM	#9
GreenGeek Cautiously optimistic thanks to Idzik. Veteran Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Stony Brook Posts: 1,662	Good thread with level heads. I think the questions from Grassley hit the point. Since executive privilege covers only THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF (not others in the exec branch): Why is this pertinent to matters on which the pres claims no knowledge from documents he's never seen? The documents in question are from the period following the release of a Feb 4 2011 letter stating that noone in justice knew of the operation. That letter was 'retracted' as being incorrect. My best guess is that the missing documents show the politics over the selectively released or hidden information and the motives behind it. Two points: In watergate the coverup was the issue, not the breakin. It never matters how many docs are released, it matters WHICH docs are released.

06-20-2012, 01:15 PM	#10
chiefst2000 Champion of Common Sense All Pro Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 5,836	[QUOTE=GreenGeek;4496307]Good thread with level heads. I think the questions from Grassley hit the point. Since executive privilege covers only THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF (not others in the exec branch): Why is this pertinent to matters on which the pres claims no knowledge from documents he's never seen? The documents in question are from the period following the release of a Feb 4 2011 letter stating that noone in justice knew of the operation. That letter was 'retracted' as being incorrect. My best guess is that the missing documents show the politics over the selectively released or hidden information and the motives behind it. Two points: In watergate the coverup was the issue, not the breakin. It never matters how many docs are released, it matters WHICH docs are released.[/QUOTE] Executive privilege technically also covers white house staff. Still allows for plausible deniability from the president regarding his knowledge of the program.

06-20-2012, 01:27 PM	#11
shakin318 Beslubbering beef-witted lout Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Funkytown Posts: 7,181	[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4496322]Executive privilege technically also covers white house staff. Still allows for plausible deniability from the president regarding his knowledge of the program.[/QUOTE] Can also make him complicit in the coverup of the murder of Brian Terry.

06-20-2012, 01:32 PM	#13
shakin318 Beslubbering beef-witted lout Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Funkytown Posts: 7,181	[QUOTE=cr726;4496336]Wonderful another rightwinger wants to play. Operation Wide Receiver was before this and where is your outrage? Issa is an attention whore and is being as difficult as possible to keep this and himself in the press. The Acting head of the ATF ok'd the operation and there were assistant u.s attorneys involved too. The operation was awful, but for you to believe the President or Holder were the point men is untrue.[/QUOTE] If that's the case, they can absolve themselves by releasing the legally requested documents. Instead, Holder begged Obama to invoke executive privilege.

06-20-2012, 01:42 PM	#14
chiefst2000 Champion of Common Sense All Pro Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 5,836	[QUOTE=cr726;4496336]Wonderful another rightwinger wants to play. Operation Wide Receiver was before this and where is your outrage? Issa is an attention whore and is being as difficult as possible to keep this and himself in the press. The Acting head of the ATF ok'd the operation and there were assistant u.s attorneys involved too. The operation was awful, but for you to believe the President or Holder were the point men is untrue.[/QUOTE] You have no idea who was involved or how high up it goes. Why wouldn't the justice department turn over the documents if they weren't hiding anything. It defies logic. This is the same "justice department" now "investigating" the national security leaks coming out of the Obama administration. I think we will see lots of officials pleading the 5th again there.

06-20-2012, 01:43 PM	#15
DeanPatsFan Lib Free Or Die..... All Pro Annoying Chowd Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 6,141	The most transparent administration in US history.....

06-20-2012, 01:46 PM	#16
brady's a catcher R.I.P Goofy Maloof All Pro Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 6,696	[QUOTE=cr726;4496336]Wonderful another rightwinger wants to play. Operation Wide Receiver was before this and where is your outrage? Issa is an attention whore and is being as difficult as possible to keep this and himself in the press. The Acting head of the ATF ok'd the operation and there were assistant u.s attorneys involved too. The operation was awful, but for you to believe the President or Holder were the point men is untrue.[/QUOTE] Why the Holder sandbagging then?

06-20-2012, 01:54 PM	#17
acepepe All League Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,427	[QUOTE=cr726;4496232]That's not true, the Phoenix ATF and the AUSA stated it was main Justice. [B]Holder has turned over a ton of stuff [/B]here and please can we stop pretending Issa is not trying to get as much attention for himself as possible.[/QUOTE] (!) International sign of an azz. You're in law enforcement???? A brother officer is killed and you don't want all the fact brought in light??

06-20-2012, 02:03 PM	#20
shakin318 Beslubbering beef-witted lout Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Funkytown Posts: 7,181	[QUOTE=cr726;4496376]Yes I do have an idea and Issa is as much to blame as anyone. Believe me DOJ has been all over every agency during this debacle, I have firsthand experience with them.[/QUOTE] Yeah, Issa is to blame for doing his job by its very definition as the Chairman of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee.