Societal Values.

[Axil]

[QUOTE=GreenGeek;4499339]Thanks for the thoughtful reply and getting to the heart of the point.

<snip>
My post may get LOTS of flame, but I believe that we should tolerate
imperfection to retain freedom. Imagine what TSA rules would be required
for 100% security. Look at one decade of their existence and extrapolate
to 5 (my age) or 50. I would rather be on the plane taken down than
doom my son and his future kids to an absence of freedom in exchange for
100% air travel safety, or 100% absence of obesity, or 100% elimination of
crime, or 100% compliance with farm regulations, or 100% handling of
any narrow issue-du-jour in exchange for our free society.

What say you?
<...waits to be engulfed by flame...>[/QUOTE]

This was beautifully written and I'm not sure i could articulate my thoughts on the topic, without repeating what you've written in a less polished way. I fear that we grow closer to your "5 minute solution" every day (i presume you've read 1984), and it scares me substantially more than any external threat or domestic crime to be quite honest.

[GreenGeek]

[QUOTE=parafly;4499345]There aren't many people who would disagree with this premise, but the question is where do you draw the line. Basic forms of security are a necessity in any modern form of society.

Are pat downs at the airport and drones in our skies the limit? As technology advances, it's inevitable that the boundaries will be tested. [b]The people will need to play an active role in keeping these policies and tactics in check, but will we have the wisdom to do it?[/b] Some days I have my doubts.[/QUOTE]

You ask do we have the wisdom to play an active role in policy.
I ask do we have the opportunity?

TSA, HS, and EPA are allowed to make, interpret, and enforce "law".
Indeed, we have our vote, but even congress has placed itself in the position
of reaction to "new laws" from TSA rather than being the body that
institutes all law. This is a combination of efficiency (new liquid limits
don't require floor debate) and laziness (new liquid limits don't require
floor debate).

Indeed, we need new regulations as time goes on. However, do we want
these from our elected reps or from appointed agencies? The former
gives us a voice in the process. The latter gives as the ability to generate
new rules quickly. Thanks, but no thanks on quickly...it leads to bad law.

[GreenGeek]

[QUOTE=Axil;4499395]This was beautifully written and I'm not sure i could articulate my thoughts on the topic, without repeating what you've written in a less polished way. I fear that we grow closer to your "5 minute solution" every day [b](i presume you've read 1984)[/b], and it scares me substantially more than any external threat or domestic crime to be quite honest.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. Indeed I have read 1984.

I wonder if Orwell had changed the date to 2014, whether things would
be different now. I remember people in 1983 fearing whether we were
"creating 1984". This fear seems muted today.

[palmetto defender]

[QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4499164]So do fireman and police. But your party says that they are lazy, belong to a union and hate America.

That's why your party sucks.[/QUOTE]


Fireman and police recieve salaries far in disproportion to the military. The military does NOT have a union.
Police - another bag of donuts, please? Ever check out the physical condition of many police? Size that up to an infantryman.

Who says they hate America? I think you, FF2, IJF are the head of that group. No?

Salaries in the public sector need to be controlled (read: reduced). At that, they still have way to high a level of compensation.

[palmetto defender]

[QUOTE=shakin318;4499187]LOLOL....yeah, the Republicans and conservatives are the ones hating on and demonizing police officers. LOLLLOLOLOLLL[/QUOTE]


Once again, you make a good point.
How many conservatives riot and throw bricks at police and throw Molotov coctkails at them. Resist arrest and punch police during demonstrations (riots). These are all flaming lefty libs. OWS was made of these DEM flamers and supported by George Soros and Obama.
Libs (dems) have hated the police since the 60s. The left's - "Hey pig" is not exactly a term of endearment.

[cr726]

[QUOTE=palmetto defender;4499460]Once again, you make a good point.
How many conservatives riot and throw bricks at police and throw Molotov coctkails at them. Resist arrest and punch police during demonstrations (riots). These are all flaming lefty libs. OWS was made of these DEM flamers and supported by George Soros and Obama.
Libs (dems) have hated the police since the 60s. The left's - "Hey pig" is not exactly a term of endearment.[/QUOTE]

:zzz:

What hurts a cop more a disorderly crowd or going after his pay and pension?

[palmetto defender]

[QUOTE=cr726;4499464]:zzz:

What hurts a cop more a disorderly crowd or going after his pay and pension?[/QUOTE]


I would say a dead cop or one who is burned badly or disabled is a lot worse off then one having his salary reduced from $75k to $70k.
THe pension system is also abused as are medical benefits.

[cr726]

[QUOTE=palmetto defender;4499474]I would say a dead cop or one who is burned badly or disabled is a lot worse off then one having his salary reduced from $75k to $70k.
THe pension system is also abused as are medical benefits.[/QUOTE]

That wasn't the question. A Philly PD officer tops out at 59k.

[AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite]

[QUOTE=cr726;4499480]That wasn't the question. A Philly PD officer tops out at 59k.[/QUOTE]

I always find that argument hilarious... What about OT :i_dont_kn

I'm not saying they deserve the money one way or another... But let's not pretend cops are making a measly 60k a year in the city of Philly because that's simply not true...

[cr726]

[QUOTE=AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite;4499482]I always find that argument hilarious... What about OT :i_dont_kn

I'm not saying they deserve the money one way or another... But let's not pretend cops are making a measly 60k a year in the city of Philly because that's simply not true...[/QUOTE]

OT has been cut and you do understand police officers actually work those hours. Up until recently you have to be a resident to be a police officer (now can move out after 5 years), how many jobs can force where you are allowed to live?

[palmetto defender]

[QUOTE=cr726;4499480]That wasn't the question. A Philly PD officer tops out at 59k.[/QUOTE]


Philly is cheaper to live in than NYC or Nassau County.
So a base cut to $55 from $59. "Shared sacrifice". Our leader's favorite phrase.
I am not saying screw the public sector, just use restraint.

For the record, I have a problem with some salaries in the private sector.
Some of the companies in which I own stock have CEOs and COOs making way too much. I vote accordingly on my proxy.
Don't own Oracle, but Larry Ellison make $70mill+. Why?
The Liberty Media CEO ( a crappy company) makes a billion+.

[PlumberKhan]

[QUOTE=Bonhomme Richard;4499349]You know I don't read every single goddamn thread, right?[/QUOTE]

Lol.

:)


Sent from my Double-Wide using Semaphore...

[FF2®]

[QUOTE=palmetto defender;4499457]CPAs recieve salaries far in disproportion to the military.[/QUOTE]

Fixed.

[parafly]

A good discussion about security vs. freedom, and it has to devolve into public sector paid too much vs. paid too little petty nonsense. Sigh.

[shakin318]

[QUOTE=cr726;4499497]Up until recently you have to be a resident to be a police officer (now can move out after 5 years), how many jobs can force where you are allowed to live?[/QUOTE]

And that rule is a result of liberal Sharptonites whining and moaning about the big bad whitiez coming into the hood and not being able to relate to the residents. It's a dem policy

[Axil]

[QUOTE=GreenGeek;4499406]Thank you. Indeed I have read 1984.

I wonder if Orwell had changed the date to 2014, whether things would
be different now. I remember people in 1983 fearing whether we were
"creating 1984". This fear seems muted today.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately i think the lack of fear stems from a society that is less concerned about the spread of governmental power, and less familiar with history and political science which teach us to fear and mistrust the government, especially as it grows and grabs power. Where once owning a firearm, and planning for the contingency that the government ceased to be of, by and for the people was considered being a responsible citizen. Now, you are considered a conspiracy theory nut job, a danger to society.

The government educates us. It will give us medicine when we are sick, food when we are hungry. It tells us, through it's school system and policies what values are correct. It tells us which accomplishments matter, and even which attributes are most desirable in a citizen. Things are very much trending towards a "1984" styled existence, however we have one major advantage over those in Orwell's world. The people of Oceania couldn't see what was happening outside of their world, and compare it with the bastardization of freedom they had. I believe that America's saving grace may be the ability for it's citizenry to look out across it' oceans and see other countries surpass us in many ways.

[doggin94it]

[QUOTE=Jungle Shift Jet;4499222]Public sector Pensions are excessive. Abuses of same are rampant.
Police at times are brutal abusive and corrupt.

My father had a business for 38 years and the only person who ever
tried to shake him down for protection $ was a NYPD cop.

All of that doesn't diminish the appreciation most folks have for police and firemen. They're our friends and family too. My brother owes his life to one.

Smart people can separate the two concerns.[/QUOTE]
Nice post. Wish more of your contributions were like this

[AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite]

[QUOTE=shakin318;4499704]And that rule is a result of liberal Sharptonites whining and moaning about the big bad whitiez coming into the hood and not being able to relate to the residents. It's a dem policy[/QUOTE]

+1

[copernicus]

[QUOTE=shakin318;4499187]LOLOL....yeah, the Republicans and conservatives are the ones hating on and demonizing police officers. LOLLLOLOLOLLL[/QUOTE]

Not hating on them, but real quick to want to take away the rights their union fights for..............

[Warfish]

[QUOTE=copernicus;4499942]Not hating on them, but real quick to want to take away the [B][U]benefits[/U][/B] their union fights for..............[/QUOTE]

Fixed your post. They are negotiated benefits, not rights.

What people want is a little more evenness between Union and the Represenatives of the People against them in such negotiations. Not a system where Unions fund candidates who negotiate Union benefits for Unions to who fund those same candidates, etc, etc, etc.

I'd be fine with a Law banning any and all funding or political activity by Unions in campaigns in which they could influence someone who at any point be involved in any future Union Contract Negotaiation.

In any right-thinking society, such funding and work would be labeled what it is, corruption.

I fully support your right to Unionize, and argue for your desired benefits.

I do not support mandatory membership in Unions (I support Right to Work States like my own) and I do not support Unions being allowed to fund political parties who will then reward them with public money via direct benefits at contract reup time.

There must be a division between Govt. and Public Service Union that keeps that negotiation even and fair to both sides, the Union, and the People who pay the bill.