Today is “National Chick-fil-A Appreciation Day.”

[brady's a catcher]

Originally Posted by OCCH

Would you say there are any "evolutionary impacts" that we have witnessed since the beginning of human history?

Absolutely, sppech and language capacity, along with exponentially improved cognitive function in general.

[parafly]

Originally Posted by Warfish

If you grow up in an alcoholic and abusive household, you do not get a free pass for drinking and hitting your kids.

You still choose to do it.

This is a limited analogy in my opinion. How about a child growing up in an abusive household and experiencing panic attacks later in life?

Definitely not a conscious choice, although you could argue their is a genetic predisposition to panic attacks and abuse brought it to the forefront.

Originally Posted by quantum

Being homosexual is an evolutionary dead-end, as same gender pairings will never produce offspring. Without getting into deity/creator territory, why would nature choose this "feature" to propagate? Nature chooses enhancements to keep species going: strength, speed, camouflage, etc.

There is a fatal flaw in your logic. Just because you are homosexual does not mean you can't/don't reproduce. You can be homosexual and still thrive and pass on your genes.

[quantum]

Originally Posted by brady's a catcher

That makes sense except that there has been recorded instances of homesexaulity going back to the beginning of human history, no? With no evolutionary impact, as you say, why has it not just de-evolved on it's own over tens of thousands of years?

Why do we still have an appendix? Why do people still suffer from MS? Or cancer?

I don't know if "tens of thousands of years" is enough time for an evolutionary purge. Even it is, our environment affects us also: you can have the cancer gene, and in some people it gets activated, others, never. TBH, I never pursued biology to have all the answers.

[OCCH]

Originally Posted by brady's a catcher

Absolutely, sppech and language capacity, along with exponentially improved cognitive function in general.

So you think those things happened "naturally" (ie they were destined to happen simply based on our evolutionary curve) or because each generation built on what the previous one learned?

It's an honest question -- maybe you don't see a difference, but to me there's a big difference between natural evolution and manufactured evolution.

I'm amazed whenever I hear what the Egyptians were capable of creating without all the "modern technology" we have today. If anything I'd say we're getting DUMBER as a species, even though our capabilities are growing exponentially . . .

[brady's a catcher]

Originally Posted by quantum

Why do we still have an appendix? Why do people still suffer from MS? Or cancer?

I don't know if "tens of thousands of years" is enough time for an evolutionary purge. Even it is, our environment affects us also: you can have the cancer gene, and in some people it gets activated, others, never. TBH, I never pursued biology to have all the answers.

To help doctors buy boats?

I was a psych major and now work in project management, what the hell do I know. It is a fascinating subject as are the questions posed in the last 8-10 posts.

I guess I choose "tens of thousands" b/c I feel that we have more evidence from that period than from 180-200 thousand years ago, of course.

This was an intersesting tool, I thought:

https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence...ne-interactive

[quantum]

Originally Posted by parafly

There is a fatal flaw in your logic. Just because you are homosexual does not mean you can't/don't reproduce. You can be homosexual and still thrive and pass on your genes.

Via man-made contrivances only. Without these, the attraction to mate with the opposite gender is not there, much like the rest of the animal kingdom. For example, Mr Lion senses Miss Lion is in heat, and they reproduce. Mr Lion doesn't think to himself "I'm not attracted to Miss Lion, but I hope she'll carry my cubs for me and Mr Lion II". Pure anthropomorphism.

Plus, isn't it true that homosexuals do have hetero children? I think that lends some weight to my logic, and not the fatal flaw you wish it had.

[brady's a catcher]

Originally Posted by OCCH

So you think those things happened "naturally" (ie they were destined to happen simply based on our evolutionary curve) or because each generation built on what the previous one learned?

It's an honest question -- maybe you don't see a difference, but to me there's a big difference between natural evolution and manufactured evolution.

I'm amazed whenever I hear what the Egyptians were capable of creating without all the "modern technology" we have today. If anything I'd say we're getting DUMBER as a species, even though our capabilities are growing exponentially . . .

Responding to you rpost backwards, I totally agree we're getting dumber. The silly comedy Idiocracy was actually prophetic.

I think I get what you are saying, but even with ME, don't you need enough inate intelliegence and skill to take advantage and build on the what is now available to you, thanks to previous leaps in cognitive ability and a collective knowledge base?

[parafly]

Originally Posted by quantum

Via man-made contrivances only. Without these, the attraction to mate with the opposite gender is not there, much like the rest of the animal kingdom. For example, Mr Lion senses Miss Lion is in heat, and they reproduce. Mr Lion doesn't think to himself "I'm not attracted to Miss Lion, but I hope she'll carry my cubs for me and Mr Lion II". Pure anthropomorphism.

Plus, isn't it true that homosexuals do have hetero children? I think that lends some weight to my logic, and not the fatal flaw you wish it had.

I agree with you about genetics, at least as a partial and/or predisposing factor. I found fault with your "evolutionary dead end" comment. It's not a dead end because physically you can still procreate.

[quantum]

The last thing I read about intelligence was that IQ goes in generational increments, reaches a plateau, starts the cycle over, but with increases. Don't know if this is the current theory or not.

For a (very) simplified example:

let's say your great grandfather is Gen#1 with an IQ of 100.

Gen#1 100
Gen#2 101
Gen#3 102
Gen#4 (you) 103

With you, you're family has now reached its plateau. Your son is Gen#5.

Gen#5 100
Gen#6 102
Gen#7 102
Gen#8 110

Of course, there's always a certain of backtracking and /or leaping ahead, and its not as linear as this example.

So I'm not sure people are getting dumber, or just less interested in things they don't see as important.

[quantum]

Originally Posted by parafly

I agree with you about genetics, at least as a partial and/or predisposing factor. I found fault with your "evolutionary dead end" comment. It's not a dead end because physically you can still procreate.

I didn't mean it as "can't procreate", I meant it as "not a viable or preferable trait to propagate". Nature's only concern for species is continuation.

[brady's a catcher]

Originally Posted by quantum

The last thing I read about intelligence was that IQ goes in generational increments, reaches a plateau, starts the cycle over, but with increases. Don't know if this is the current theory or not.

For a (very) simplified example:

let's say your great grandfather is Gen#1 with an IQ of 100.

Gen#1 100
Gen#2 101
Gen#3 102
Gen#4 (you) 103

With you, you're family has now reached its plateau. Your son is Gen#5.

Gen#5 100
Gen#6 102
Gen#7 102
Gen#8 110

Of course, there's always a certain of backtracking and /or leaping ahead, and its not as linear as this example.

So I'm not sure people are getting dumber, or just less interested in things they don't see as important.

I counter with the popularity of Jersey Shore.....

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by parafly

This is a limited analogy in my opinion. How about a child growing up in an abusive household and experiencing panic attacks later in life?

A Panic Attack is an involuntary action, an acknowledged medical condition, and something we treat with medication and therapy.

Having Homosexual Sex or Relationships is a voluntary action, is not a medical condition, and is not treated by mainstream medicine.

It's an apples to smurfs comparison.

Definitely not a conscious choice, although you could argue their is a genetic predisposition to panic attacks and abuse brought it to the forefront.

You could argue.....but I prefer proof. I have no idea if Anxiety is genetic or not, and I don't think science does yet either.

[quantum]

Originally Posted by brady's a catcher

I counter with the popularity of Jersey Shore.....

EVERYONE likes a good train wreck.

[parafly]

Originally Posted by Warfish

A Panic Attack is an involuntary action, an acknowledged medical condition, and something we treat with medication and therapy.

Having Homosexual Sex or Relationships is a voluntary action, is not a medical condition, and is not treated by mainstream medicine.

It's an apples to smurfs comparison.

Fair enough, but I thought we were discussing homosexuality as a human instinct, not the actions stemming from said instinct. Of course having sex or relationships (hetero or homo) is voluntary or a "conscious choice" as you stated originally.

You could argue.....but I prefer proof. I have no idea if Anxiety is genetic or not, and I don't think science does yet either.

In my opinion, mental composition is largely defined by genetics and subsequently influenced by various life experiences and environments. Current science seems to lean in this direction as well.

My feeling is that we are largely in agreement, I simply wouldn't lump life experiences and mental development during childhood into the same category as conscious choice.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by parafly

Fair enough, but I thought we were discussing homosexuality as....

We weren't really discussing. I offered up my understand of the position, a position I don't hold per se. As such, I'd prefer to not have to defend it. I am sure you understand.

In my opinion, mental composition is largely defined by genetics and subsequently influenced by various life experiences and environments. Current science seems to lean in this direction as well.

Like Climate Change, I do not have any faith that science as yet has a thorough understanding of the roles of genetics vs. experience in crafting human personality. With time will come additional understanding, and perhaps then this issue would be more valid to discuss in this manner.

My feeling is that we are largely in agreement, I simply wouldn't lump life experiences and mental development in childhood into the same category as conscious choice.

I would disagree. Failure to hold the individual accountable, even for traits they had "forced upon them" via poor or otherwise disfunctional childhood, is not (IMO) acceptable social practice.

Take to it's extreme (and everything is these days), for example, if the Colorado Shooter was abused as a child, horrificly, is that an excuse for his actions? I would say no. Your position would appear to say yes.

I think on that score, we would be forced to agree to disagree. In my view, along with libertarian freedom, comes th responsabillity and accountabillity as an indiviudal for what you, regardless of why you did it or what othe rfactors may have played a role in crafting the personality trait that may have had an influcence on myabe leading you to maybe involuntarily choosing that action.

[PlumberKhan]

Originally Posted by quantum

Being homosexual is an evolutionary dead-end

So is c*mming in a chick's mouth or on her boobs.

Is there people out there who hate to cum on a big set of boobs because it's an "evolutionary dead end"?

Do they need to see a doctor?

Some of our more conservative posters here have over and over again expressed their interest in doing girls in the butt. Does that make him latently homosexual or a pariah on the procreation of the human race?

[Jetworks]

Originally Posted by PlumberKhan

So is c*mming in a chick's mouth or on her boobs.

Is there people out there who hate to cum on a big set of boobs because it's an "evolutionary dead end"?

Do they need to see a doctor?

Some of our more conservative posters here have over and over again expressed their interest in doing girls in the butt. Does that make him latently homosexual or a pariah on the procreation of the human race?

Yea, 'cause that's the same argument being put forth.



Hey, maybe you're right. Maybe Jeff Goldblum was right all along.

[PlumberKhan]

Originally Posted by Jetworks

Yea, 'cause that's the same argument being put forth.



Hey, maybe you're right. Maybe Jeff Goldblum was right all along.

Maybe homosexuality is evolution's way of curbing the human population.

[Jetworks]

Originally Posted by PlumberKhan

Maybe homosexuality is evolution's way of curbing the human population.

So, you're saying, what?















That Jeff Goldblum WASN'T right?

[parafly]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Take to it's extreme (and everything is these days), for example, if the Colorado Shooter was abused as a child, horrificly, is that an excuse for his actions? I would say no. Your position would appear to say yes.

I would say no as well. It's not an excuse, but a hypothetical factor.

I would disagree. Failure to hold the individual accountable, even for traits they had "forced upon them" via poor or otherwise disfunctional childhood, is not (IMO) acceptable social practice.

I think on that score, we would be forced to agree to disagree. In my view, along with libertarian freedom, comes th responsabillity and accountabillity as an indiviudal for what you, regardless of why you did it or what othe rfactors may have played a role in crafting the personality trait that may have had an influcence on myabe leading you to maybe involuntarily choosing that action.

I'm having trouble following your accountability argument. Accountability for what exactly? The electrical and chemical reactions going on inside the brain?

I think we're just viewing homosexuality differently. You are viewing it as a tangible action being taken by the individual. I am viewing it as a reaction taking place in the brain and triggering an emotion.

EDIT: Homosexuality is defined by impulses and feelings, not whether you actually act on those impulses.