Affirmative Action

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by doggin94it

You can discriminate......if there is a compelling state interest.

And here we have it in it's most distilled and concise form.

State sanctioned racism for the "greater good". Trust us.

The same State who can't do pretty much anything right, from basic budgeting to waging war, we're supposed to simply trust to decide which racism is good for us, and which racism is bad or us. Trust us.

The same State, it should be mentioned that backed Slavery. Trust us.

The same legal system who, a few hundered years ago, would have had some lawyer, equaly brilliant and well-spoken as Doggin, explaining to the ignorant masses why slavery was justified under the Law, why inequally was really for the greater good, and how we should trust the laws of the State. Trust us.

So much for supposedly being "equal under the Law".

Thank you my frined, for so clearly showing what it is I stand against on this issue. I couldn't have asked for more.

[doggin94it]

Originally Posted by Axil

We are not using the term objective in the same way. I am using the word objective as defined in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. Definitions 1b, 1d and 3a chiefly apply in this context.

"Objectively true" simply means "true in all circumstances regardless of the impressions of the observer.

The statement: "Children need discipline" is not objectively true. What makes it true? What facts support that assertion?

Not sure this is really an appropriate thread for this, since it's a loooong digression, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any expert, psychologist, or parent who can point to even a single anecdotal case of a child who benefited from receiving no or insufficient discipline; you'll find plenty who can point to the contrary.

If you're at the point that you're pressing for evidence for the proposition that children need some discipline, I think we can safely agree to disagree and move on.

The fact that the majority of the population agrees with a principle does not make it objectively true. That is an Ad Populum fallacy.

Sure, and if it was a "majority rules" argument, you'd be right. Since I'm not saying that (straw man fallacy), it's kind of irrelevant.

Lastly, something can be objective, even if the answer isn't known. I will never know how many hot pockets i have consumed over the course of my lifetime. However there is a correct, objective answer to that question, and every other answer is false. A lot of people tend to confuse an objective question with unknown variables with a subjective question, when they are really very different.

Anyway, i believe i better understand your perspective on the matter, thanks again for the legal insight.

Any time. Always glad to converse with someone who knows their fallacies

[PatriotReign]

Let me know when the conversation shifts to police departments / affirmative action...I personally know of a case where a significantly higher scoring white applicant was bypassed for a minority candidate.

[Axil]

Originally Posted by doggin94it

"Objectively true" simply means "true in all circumstances regardless of the impressions of the observer.

I think that sums of "Objectively true" very well, in the context of our conversation.

Not sure this is really an appropriate thread for this, since it's a loooong digression, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any expert, psychologist, or parent who can point to even a single anecdotal case of a child who benefited from receiving no or insufficient discipline; you'll find plenty who can point to the contrary.

If you're at the point that you're pressing for evidence for the proposition that children need some discipline, I think we can safely agree to disagree and move on.

I'm not looking to get into a debate on child rearing I was just working with the example you provided. I happen agree with your assertion that discipline is necessary in the rearing of a child. What i do not agree with is that this is an objective statement in a vacuum. In order for the assertion to be objectively true you must make certain assumption regarding the goal of child rearing. The one i added was the desire for the child in question to graduate high-school. This is important because while most rational people will quickly agree with this, and many other goals related to child rearing. The goals of the university and the federal government in relation are not as universally accepted.

Sure, and if it was a "majority rules" argument, you'd be right. Since I'm not saying that (straw man fallacy), it's kind of irrelevant.

You asserted: "Children need discipline."

and followed it with: "That is - I think we'll all agree - objectively true. "


I was under the impression the bolded portion was meant to support the assertion. rereading it, i see i was mistaken. The assertion was unsupported, but you believed it would be accepted as objective true. Yes?

Any time. Always glad to converse with someone who knows their fallacies

Likewise

[PlumberKhan]

Affirmative Action is good. Best to not have colleges resemble central Ohio or the Florida panhandle...


Sent from my Double-Wide using Semaphore...

[32green]

Originally Posted by PatriotReign

Let me know when the conversation shifts to police departments / affirmative action...I personally know of a case where a significantly higher scoring white applicant was bypassed for a minority candidate.

Dont get me started, brother.

[Frequent Flyer]

Originally Posted by doggin94it

BTW, here's why college is a different animal on this subject.

College is about preparing students for life and careers in the real world. Part of that preparation is exposure to a wide range of viewpoints and experiences. And yes, the black or hispanic kid who lived next door to me had different experiences than me merely by virtue of being black or hispanic, even if everything else about our socioeconomic status was the same. Not better or worse - but different. Maybe it's just hearing about - and then worrying about - being stopped for Driving While Black (this law review article from 1999 has some good statistics and a Johnnie Cochran story at the very beginning that is a good example of the impact such things can have), or a hispanic citizen worrying, rightly or wrongly, about the same thing happening to them under Arizona's immigration law. Maybe it's a greater educational focus on events impacting their ethnic group when they were raised (I have no doubt I know more about Jewish history than 'Fish, and equally little doubt he knows more about Scottish history than me). But people of different racial and ethnic backgrounds really do bring different perspectives to the table.

You can get all of that in the military.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by doggin94it

BTW, here's why college is a different animal on this subject.

College is about preparing students for life and careers in the real world. Part of that preparation is exposure to a wide range of viewpoints and experiences. And yes, the black or hispanic kid who lived next door to me had different experiences than me merely by virtue of being black or hispanic, even if everything else about our socioeconomic status was the same. Not better or worse - but different. Maybe it's just hearing about - and then worrying about - being stopped for Driving While Black (this law review article from 1999 has some good statistics and a Johnnie Cochran story at the very beginning that is a good example of the impact such things can have), or a hispanic citizen worrying, rightly or wrongly, about the same thing happening to them under Arizona's immigration law. Maybe it's a greater educational focus on events impacting their ethnic group when they were raised (I have no doubt I know more about Jewish history than 'Fish, and equally little doubt he knows more about Scottish history than me). But people of different racial and ethnic backgrounds really do bring different perspectives to the table.

And those perspectives exist in the real world. Encountering them, and engaging with them, is part of the education provided by a good college. Narrowmindedness can lead to bad decisions and failure.

Outside of college? It's not about preparation or education, it's about results. And - aside from jobs that require specific racial or ethnic skillsets (outreach to the black or czech community, for example, will likely always be done by a black or czech) - race and ethnicity are irrelevant to results. When I'm picking a doctor, or a lawyer, or an accountant, I'm not looking for (or to provide) a learning experience. I'm looking for medical, legal, and accounting help. And I want the best provider I can afford. Race, ethnicity, geographical background . . . none of that matters.

Here's the problem though. To get to be a lawyer, accountant, or other professional, you have to go through college first. People who are well qualified are being passed over and denied entrance to certain colleges specifically due to their race or ethnicity, so that lesser "qualified" persons of "protected classes" can provide "diversity". End result is that the overall quality of talent in the pool decreases.

[southparkcpa]

Originally Posted by Demosthenes9

Here's the problem though. To get to be a lawyer, accountant, or other professional, you have to go through college first. People who are well qualified are being passed over and denied entrance to certain colleges specifically due to their race or ethnicity, so that lesser "qualified" persons of "protected classes" can provide "diversity". End result is that the overall quality of talent in the pool decreases.

Without some type of program...diversification in these types of professions will happen at such a slow pace it will be inconsequential. being a CPA and having taught tax at a fully accredited AACSBA university I can tell you that black accounting majors are rare. I would like to see that change.

IMO...growing up poor, I had NO IDEA what a CPA was. I first to be a CPA when the small pork store I worked in on LI had the CPA come visit. They treated him like Jesus. He was valuable, expensive etc.. I thought..I want to be that guy.

When I joined a prestigous firm, I was at a disadvantage. The other hires spoke of vacations in Europe, their country (parents) club, their fine private university.

That said... many people live in environments where that experience is not as available. Some sort of small carve out, to try to change that, I am ALL for.

I cant speak for other professions but NO qualified CPA majors are denied entrance to good universities for a small scholarship available to black students only.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by southparkcpa

Without some type of program...diversification in these types of professions will happen at such a slow pace it will be inconsequential. being a CPA and having taught tax at a fully accredited AACSBA university I can tell you that black accounting majors are rare. I would like to see that change.

IMO...growing up poor, I had NO IDEA what a CPA was. I first to be a CPA when the small pork store I worked in on LI had the CPA come visit. They treated him like Jesus. He was valuable, expensive etc.. I thought..I want to be that guy.

When I joined a prestigous firm, I was at a disadvantage. The other hires spoke of vacations in Europe, their country (parents) club, their fine private university.

That said... many people live in environments where that experience is not as available. Some sort of small carve out, to try to change that, I am ALL for.

I cant speak for other professions but NO qualified CPA majors are denied entrance to good universities for a small scholarship available to black students only.

I wasn't talking about scholarships available only to black students. I have nothing against those as I think private groups can do what they want with their money. Just as an aside though, it's awfully hypocritical for the government to allow "black/woman" only scholarships while going after anyone who even tries to put up a "white/male" only scholarship for being racist/sexist.

All that aside, what I was commenting on was actual acceptance practices at Colleges and Universities, where better qualified applicants are denied admission in favor of lessor qualified applicants who happen to be members of a protected/favored class.

If you will, it's the same problem faced by police and fire departments. Higher qualified people being denied in favor of "diversity".

BTW, your anecdote about vacations in Europe and memberships in country clubs brings up a great example. There's 1 enrollment slot remaining at a school. They look over their little charts and see that they have very few black or female students. There are 2 people left to choose from for that 1 slot.

The first is a poor white boy from Appalachia, who is the first from his family to even graduate from high school. Through some spate of good fortune that we have yet to figure out, the kid is a whiz with numbers and did very well in school and on his SAT.

The second candidate's father is a doctor and her mother is a lawyer. The family lives very comfortably in an upper class neighborhood and she also went on vacations to Europe and attended private schools. Her two older siblings have already graduated college and have professional jobs. For reasons unknown, this girl didn't do that well in her private schools, nor did she do well on her SAT.

Guess who is going to get that one remaining slot at most colleges ?

[Trades]

Originally Posted by southparkcpa

Without some type of program...diversification in these types of professions will happen at such a slow pace it will be inconsequential. being a CPA and having taught tax at a fully accredited AACSBA university I can tell you that black accounting majors are rare. I would like to see that change.

IMO...growing up poor, I had NO IDEA what a CPA was. I first to be a CPA when the small pork store I worked in on LI had the CPA come visit. They treated him like Jesus. He was valuable, expensive etc.. I thought..I want to be that guy.

When I joined a prestigous firm, I was at a disadvantage. The other hires spoke of vacations in Europe, their country (parents) club, their fine private university.

That said... many people live in environments where that experience is not as available. Some sort of small carve out, to try to change that, I am ALL for.

I cant speak for other professions but NO qualified CPA majors are denied entrance to good universities for a small scholarship available to black students only.

Great now the next big entitlement will be trips to Europe and country club memberships.

[southparkcpa]

Originally Posted by Trades

Great now the next big entitlement will be trips to Europe and country club memberships.

Shlt yeah....NOT fair that I was raised by a single mom and never took a flight until I was in my 20s. YOU now owe me.


mail the check to.....I'll PM you.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by southparkcpa

Without some type of program...diversification in these types of professions will happen at such a slow pace it will be inconsequential. being a CPA and having taught tax at a fully accredited AACSBA university I can tell you that black accounting majors are rare. I would like to see that change.

IMO...growing up poor, I had NO IDEA what a CPA was. I first to be a CPA when the small pork store I worked in on LI had the CPA come visit. They treated him like Jesus. He was valuable, expensive etc.. I thought..I want to be that guy.

When I joined a prestigous firm, I was at a disadvantage. The other hires spoke of vacations in Europe, their country (parents) club, their fine private university.

That said... many people live in environments where that experience is not as available. Some sort of small carve out, to try to change that, I am ALL for.

I cant speak for other professions but NO qualified CPA majors are denied entrance to good universities for a small scholarship available to black students only.

So on one hand, you argue that "diversity" is very slow coming to this lenghty-educated, rich-white-folks-only, profession.

Yet on the other hand, you tell us that you came from less than nothing and no advantages, got your education, and became a CPA.

Tell me, what makes you better than a minority? Becaue the ONLY Logical rational for why you could do what you did and they cannot without a handout leg up, is that you're better than they are in some measurable way.

So.....what it is? How could you rise from nothign to CPA'ness, and they can't without extra help and advantages.

(By the way, like you I came from less than nothing. But if I had gotten into the school I wanted, I might be a CPA today, that WAS my plan before getting rejected. Who knows how it would have played out if I'd been judged my merit, instead of skin tone, eh?)

[southparkcpa]

Originally Posted by Warfish

So on one hand, you argue that "diversity" is very slow coming to this lenghty-educated, rich-white-folks-only, profession.

Yet on the other hand, you tell us that you came from less than nothing and no advantages, got your education, and became a CPA.

Tell me, what makes you better than a minority? Becaue the ONLY Logical rational for why you could do what you did and they cannot without a handout leg up, is that you're better than they are in some measurable way.

So.....what it is? How could you rise from nothign to CPA'ness, and they can't without extra help and advantages.

(By the way, like you I came from less than nothing. But if I had gotten into the school I wanted, I might be a CPA today, that WAS my plan before getting rejected. Who knows how it would have played out if I'd been judged my merit, instead of skin tone, eh?)

It's a long story but I was rejected from my college of choice. I went to a small much less know SUNY school. I was NOT eligible for their accounting program. I then graduated with a bullshlt degree and went to Pace University at night. Pace did OK by me but is NOT elite.

I had help along the way. A family friend helped me get my 1st job and they had tuition reimbursement.

That's my story..... And I still know of NO ONE rejected from accounting school because a minority took their spot.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by southparkcpa

It's a long story but I was rejected from my college of choice. I went to a small much less know SUNY school. I was NOT eligible for their accounting program. I then graduated with a bullshlt degree and went to Pace University at night. Pace did OK by me but is NOT elite.

I had help along the way. A family friend helped me get my 1st job and they had tuition reimbursement.

That's my story..... And I still know of NO ONE rejected from accounting school because a minority took their spot.

Why weren't you eligible for their accounting program ? Was it that they only had x many slots, and those were taken ?

[southparkcpa]

Originally Posted by Demosthenes9

Why weren't you eligible for their accounting program ? Was it that they only had x many slots, and those were taken ?

results of a mis-spent youth...totally on me.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by southparkcpa

results of a mis-spent youth...totally on me.

Been there, done that

[palmetto defender]

Originally Posted by southparkcpa

It's a long story but I was rejected from my college of choice. I went to a small much less know SUNY school. I was NOT eligible for their accounting program. I then graduated with a bullshlt degree and went to Pace University at night. Pace did OK by me but is NOT elite.

I had help along the way. A family friend helped me get my 1st job and they had tuition reimbursement.

That's my story..... And I still know of NO ONE rejected from accounting school because a minority took their spot.

Pace? Really. No complaint there. My uncle became a CPA through Pace. Did great. He became a mafia accountant - seriously.

[southparkcpa]

Originally Posted by palmetto defender

Pace? Really. No complaint there. My uncle became a CPA through Pace. Did great. He became a mafia accountant - seriously.

Yeah...I liked Pace. I went at night while I worked a shltty job in Manhattan. I would literally ge on a 6:12 train am to work and an 8:50 pm train home for 2 years. It sucked but I was and have always been willing to pay my dues and for my screw ups.

I have NO Complaints about Pace. I was recruited by a large big 8 firm from Pace and that was , IMO, the beginning of my career. I saw how successful people and business worked.

I have turned that into a pretty succesful career.

[FF2®]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Thank you my frined, for so clearly showing what it is I stand against on this issue. I couldn't have asked for more.

You love winning the internet dont you?