Jets O - Better minus Holmes

Joshua · 10-23-2012, 06:47 PM

What I'm seeing from the Jets O over the past three weeks is a team that is utilizing all their weapons. Sanchez used Holmes as a security blanket way too much. Often he would force throws to him. I like that they are now spreading this out some. Kerley looks fantastic and he is the same type of receiver Holmes is. This is a positive thing because the Jets are showing that this supposed group of no name receivers has talent...

Kerley - Lighting it up. Making the tough catches, getting separation and getting huge chunks of yardage.

S. Hill - Showing he can be physical with DB's as well as get himself open. Ran some nice cutback routes against the Pats. Needs to focus on catching then running.

C. Schillens - Nice sized receiver that's made some nice plays. I didn't feel like they utilized him well against New England but hes played pretty well this season.

J. Hill - Hasn't played a ton but has looked okay when he has. Got deep in that game against the Texans and dropped it. Has some speed. Got the TD against the Colts.

So all in all there is promise in these guys that might not be seen if Santonio didn't go out. We're seeing Kerley become a star and if Santonio was out there he wouldn't be getting this much playing time.

Now Revis on the other hand... that can never be a good thing (Cause he is the best at his position) but to Cromartie's credit as well as Wilson's the Jets are surviving this loss pretty well. Most teams never have the luxury of two shut down corners to begin with. Cromartie has struggled in the past at times but he has been lock down the last few weeks. Wilson has improved on the outside and Lankster and Trufant are looking good when they are in the slot.

Feeling positive about this team... they can still be a threat in a wide open AFC. They gave the Texans and Pats all they can handle. As this season goes on and these guys get more playing time they'll only get better.

nycuse · 10-23-2012, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua

What I'm seeing from the Jets O over the past three weeks is a team that is utilizing all their weapons. Sanchez used Holmes as a security blanket way too much. Often he would force throws to him. I like that they are now spreading this out some. Kerley looks fantastic and he is the same type of receiver Holmes is. This is a positive thing because the Jets are showing that this supposed group of no name receivers has talent...

Kerley - Lighting it up. Making the tough catches, getting separation and getting huge chunks of yardage.

S. Hill - Showing he can be physical with DB's as well as get himself open. Ran some nice cutback routes against the Pats. Needs to focus on catching then running.

C. Schillens - Nice sized receiver that's made some nice plays. I didn't feel like they utilized him well against New England but hes played pretty well this season.

J. Hill - Hasn't played a ton but has looked okay when he has. Got deep in that game against the Texans and dropped it. Has some speed. Got the TD against the Colts.

You are correct. It's always better when you know the routes the receivers are going to run.

So all in all there is promise in these guys that might not be seen if Santonio didn't go out. We're seeing Kerley become a star and if Santonio was out there he wouldn't be getting this much playing time.

Now Revis on the other hand... that can never be a good thing (Cause he is the best at his position) but to Cromartie's credit as well as Wilson's the Jets are surviving this loss pretty well. Most teams never have the luxury of two shut down corners to begin with. Cromartie has struggled in the past at times but he has been lock down the last few weeks. Wilson has improved on the outside and Lankster and Trufant are looking good when they are in the slot.

Feeling positive about this team... they can still be a threat in a wide open AFC. They gave the Texans and Pats all they can handle. As this season goes on and these guys get more playing time they'll only get better.

You are correct. It's always better when the QB knows the routes his receivers are going to run.

k.Rhodes25 · 10-23-2012, 07:20 PM

Devin McCourty said before the game that Sanchez was harder to game plan for without Holmes. He doesn't have to force feed Holmes to keep him happy and Holmes gets lazy, he does have a lot of talent though.

I am really liking Kerley, he runs good routes and has good hands. Hes really quick and hard to cover out of the slot. He has been our biggest playmaker all season so far, he has 9 catches for over 20+ yards.

PaPZ187 · 10-23-2012, 07:51 PM

Good thread. Its very promising watching guys like Kerley and Hill building chemistry with Sanchez, as well as becoming better and improving as the season goes on.

I really have nothing personal against Holmes, yeah he comes off as an ahole but that I can live with. However, I HATE how he acted like a whiny btch last year and QUIT on his team. He points fingers, but did you see Sanchez or any other teammate point the finger at him when he was fumbling, dropping passes, etc? No because they understand team concept.

Fck Holmes. Sorry didn't mean to get off topic, but he really pisses me off.

Sent from my LG-P999

RoadFan · 10-23-2012, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua

What I'm seeing from the Jets O over the past three weeks is a team that is utilizing all their weapons. Sanchez used Holmes as a security blanket way too much. Often he would force throws to him. I like that they are now spreading this out some. Kerley looks fantastic and he is the same type of receiver Holmes is. This is a positive thing because the Jets are showing that this supposed group of no name receivers has talent...

Kerley - Lighting it up. Making the tough catches, getting separation and getting huge chunks of yardage.

S. Hill - Showing he can be physical with DB's as well as get himself open. Ran some nice cutback routes against the Pats. Needs to focus on catching then running.

C. Schillens - Nice sized receiver that's made some nice plays. I didn't feel like they utilized him well against New England but hes played pretty well this season.

J. Hill - Hasn't played a ton but has looked okay when he has. Got deep in that game against the Texans and dropped it. Has some speed. Got the TD against the Colts.

So all in all there is promise in these guys that might not be seen if Santonio didn't go out. We're seeing Kerley become a star and if Santonio was out there he wouldn't be getting this much playing time.

Now Revis on the other hand... that can never be a good thing (Cause he is the best at his position) but to Cromartie's credit as well as Wilson's the Jets are surviving this loss pretty well. Most teams never have the luxury of two shut down corners to begin with. Cromartie has struggled in the past at times but he has been lock down the last few weeks. Wilson has improved on the outside and Lankster and Trufant are looking good when they are in the slot.

Feeling positive about this team... they can still be a threat in a wide open AFC. They gave the Texans and Pats all they can handle. As this season goes on and these guys get more playing time they'll only get better.

Chaz Schilens is complete and total garbage. He can't stay healthy, can't separate, stops his routes, and doesn't even contribute on special teams. He is the biggest waste of roster space on the team. I have begun referring to him as Matthew Hatchette.

nycuse · 10-23-2012, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadFan

Chaz Schilens is complete and total garbage. He can't stay healthy, can't separate, stops his routes, and doesn't even contribute on special teams. He is the biggest waste of roster space on the team. I have begun referring to him as Matthew Hatchette.

True - schillens is hot garbage.

DBAKE · 10-23-2012, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaPZ187

Good thread. Its very promising watching guys like Kerley and Hill building chemistry with Sanchez, as well as becoming better and improving as the season goes on.

I really have nothing personal against Holmes, yeah he comes off as an ahole but that I can live with. However, I HATE how he acted like a whiny btch last year and QUIT on his team. He points fingers, but did you see Sanchez or any other teammate point the finger at him when he was fumbling, dropping passes, etc? No because they understand team concept.

Fck Holmes. Sorry didn't mean to get off topic, but he really pisses me off.

Sent from my LG-P999

Agree 100% holmes needs to get cut as soon as financially possible.

Vin · 10-23-2012, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadFan

Chaz Schilens is complete and total garbage. He can't stay healthy, can't separate, stops his routes, and doesn't even contribute on special teams. He is the biggest waste of roster space on the team. I have begun referring to him as Matthew Hatchette.

I disagree. Chaz HAS managed to stay healthy.

The Problem is that HE SUCKS.

We basically replaced Braylon for this loser. Thanks, Tanny.

detectivekimble · 10-23-2012, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua

What I'm seeing from the Jets O over the past three weeks is a team that is utilizing all their weapons. Sanchez used Holmes as a security blanket way too much. Often he would force throws to him. I like that they are now spreading this out some. Kerley looks fantastic and he is the same type of receiver Holmes is. This is a positive thing because the Jets are showing that this supposed group of no name receivers has talent...

Kerley - Lighting it up. Making the tough catches, getting separation and getting huge chunks of yardage.

S. Hill - Showing he can be physical with DB's as well as get himself open. Ran some nice cutback routes against the Pats. Needs to focus on catching then running.

C. Schillens - Nice sized receiver that's made some nice plays. I didn't feel like they utilized him well against New England but hes played pretty well this season.

J. Hill - Hasn't played a ton but has looked okay when he has. Got deep in that game against the Texans and dropped it. Has some speed. Got the TD against the Colts.

So all in all there is promise in these guys that might not be seen if Santonio didn't go out. We're seeing Kerley become a star and if Santonio was out there he wouldn't be getting this much playing time.

Now Revis on the other hand... that can never be a good thing (Cause he is the best at his position) but to Cromartie's credit as well as Wilson's the Jets are surviving this loss pretty well. Most teams never have the luxury of two shut down corners to begin with. Cromartie has struggled in the past at times but he has been lock down the last few weeks. Wilson has improved on the outside and Lankster and Trufant are looking good when they are in the slot.

Feeling positive about this team... they can still be a threat in a wide open AFC. They gave the Texans and Pats all they can handle. As this season goes on and these guys get more playing time they'll only get better.

It's the Shockey thing. There's more chemistry and flow to the offense without Holmes. Watch the first part of 2010, when Holmes was suspended. Sanchez and the offense looked good. When he came back, the offense was out of whack and has been out of whack since he's been playing in this offense.

sameoldjets · 10-23-2012, 09:30 PM

it certainly does seem like losing holmes was a plus. however, holmes is a fairly talented receiver and it's hard to see how kerley and hill can make up for him. but football is a game of emotions and if hill and kerley are each just 70% of holmes but show up 100% of the time then they are better than holmes who shows up maybe 25% of the time.

WestCoastOffensive · 10-23-2012, 09:41 PM

I told you guys this would work out.

Limolady · 10-23-2012, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sameoldjets

it certainly does seem like losing holmes was a plus. however, holmes is a fairly talented receiver and it's hard to see how kerley and hill can make up for him. but football is a game of emotions and if hill and kerley are each just 70% of holmes but show up 100% of the time then they are better than holmes who shows up maybe 25% of the time.

I agree except I wouldn't put Santonio at showing up 25% of the time, more like 65% of the time, but he's done for the season, so now we'll never really know. NFL - Not For Long means another guy gets a shot at the spot. You have to give Rex and his coaches a ton of credit in sticking to their script while rolling with the punches. I liked what Rex said in his presser that this team is not getting better by luck or anything else, but by design. So that explains why Cro wants to play WR, lol.

FijiJet · 10-23-2012, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadFan

Chaz Schilens is complete and total garbage. He can't stay healthy, can't separate, stops his routes, and doesn't even contribute on special teams. He is the biggest waste of roster space on the team. I have begun referring to him as Matthew Hatchette.

Schillens has been pathetic. What a chump

jetssjumets · 10-23-2012, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by detectivekimble

It's the Shockey thing. There's more chemistry and flow to the offense without Holmes. Watch the first part of 2010, when Holmes was suspended. Sanchez and the offense looked good. When he came back, the offense was out of whack and has been out of whack since he's been playing in this offense.

+1

I agree with you 100%. Even with all his talent, Santonio is not worth it...no wonder Pitt gave him away for only a 5th.

jetssjumets · 10-23-2012, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FijiJet

Schillens has been pathetic. What a chump

Yup. Can't catch the football.

mavericknyc1980 · 10-24-2012, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetssjumets

Yup. Can't catch the football.

They should bring up White.

IndianaJet · 10-24-2012, 02:13 AM

I would love to see them give White a chance.

Right now this offense is missing a tough 3rd WR with solid hands and who runs good routes and can get open on third downs.

White could be that guy. We know Chaz and J Hill are not those guys.

I also agree 100% with the original poster.

I said a few weeks ago that if you want to give up on this season fine. But don't give up on the season by benching Sanchez. Whether or not you think Sanchez is great or awful, Sanchez let's us run a traditional offense and, in turn, without SantonMEio, develop young guys like Kerely, S. Hill, McKnight and Powell. With Tebow in there we run a gimmick offense and these guys don't develop.

eifmp · 10-24-2012, 02:14 AM

I totally agree that this Jets offense is better without Holmes, but you've got to add in Hill & Keller. Hill, Keller, and Kerley make a nice trio. If we had a healthy Hill and Keller for the Texans game I think we win that one.

Look who we had for receivers in that game.

Chaz Schilens --- 7th round pick
Jeremy Kerley---5th round pick
Jeff Cumberalnd ---Undrafted
Clyde Gates ---4th round pick
Jason Hill ---3rd Round Pick (from his living room sofa)

Sanchez is no Brady (obviously)! There is no way he can win with that lack of talent around him. The fact that we kept it close tells me a lot.

I think if we can clean up the mistakes, we can win 9 or 10 games this season.

TheMikeIsHot · 10-24-2012, 06:19 AM

I was skeptical about this idea... so many posters here were convinced the offense would be better off without the most talented player... and I didn't buy into it.

But I was wrong. They look a lot better without Holmes.

Even the run game has improved.

And yes, Schilens is a waste of space. Bring up White. He can't be any worse.

JetsNeedNewton · 10-24-2012, 08:07 AM

Sports writers are starting to agree: http://polldaddy.com/poll/6632769/?v...ults&msg=voted

Are the Jets a better Team with or without Santonio Holmes?

They are a better team WITH Santonio Holmes
16%
6 votes
They are a better team WITHOUT Santonio Holmes
71%
27 votes
They are about the same with or without him.
13%
5 votes

http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/ar...olmes/12042001

Are the Jets a better team without Santonio Holmes?

Submitted by Syndicated sources on October 24, 2012 - 6:49am
It has been well documented on the ups and downs Santonio Holmes has experienced in his career with the New York Jets. No one will forget the meltdown he had during the last drive of the last game against the season or the rocky relationship he has had with his QB Mark Sanchez.
All that was behind them and it was supposed to be a fresh start for both veterans until Holmes suffered a season ending injury against he 49?ers in week four.

Some of the Jets players, specifically his WR unit, have always said that Holmes is a great teammate always willing to help and give tips. Fans’ frustration from what I have been able to see has been on Holmes’ attitude of being a “ME first player”. Just ask Fireman Ed. I’m sure it’s safe to say: NOT A FAN.
With Holmes out for the season, I was pondering after three full games without him, ARE THE JETS A BETTER TEAM WITHOUT HIM? Julian Carter and I talk about this very subject on today’s Jets Twit podcast.
First let’s look at what Holmes has been able to accomplish in his Jets career:

2010: 52 rec 746 Yds 14.3 Avg 6 TD 0 Fum 2011: 51 rec 654 Yds 12.8 Avg 8 TD 2 Fum 2012: 20 rec 272 Yds 13.6 Avg 1 TD 1 Fum

Having only played in 3 and 3/4 games this year, Holmes was putting up the same amount of stats with the exception of getting more targeted which translated in more catches.
Mark was clearly trying to target Sanchez a lot more in those first four games, but was he forcing the ball? Some people believe that with Holmes out of the lineup, Mark is more relaxed and is spreading the ball around. A theory is Mark was forcing the ball to Santonio so that the WR wouldn’t eventually have a meltdown like last season.
The Jets do have some young inexperienced faces on the WR core, and one that really took advantage of an opportunity was Jeremy Kerley against the New England Patriots in week 7. Jeremy was targeted 11 times with 7 Rec for 120 Yards averaging 17.1 yards per catch.
In the first four games, Jeremy was targeted 14 times. In the last game alone he was targeted 11 times.

First four games: Targeted 14 - 10 Rec 197 Yards 2 TDs Last 3 Games: Targeted 26 - 15 Rec 238 Yards 0 TDs

Kerley has Stepped up his game with Holmes Out

As you can see, Jeremy’s numbers are up for the last three games, and if the running game wasn’t as successful as it was against the Colts, I believe Kerley’s numbes would be even higher since they didn’t need to throw in that game.
It’s clear that Mark is building some nice chemistry with Kerley and what is appreciated from THIS fan is that there seems to be no distractions or noise off the field.
So do you think the Jets are a better team with or without Santonio Holmes?

What did he to to firedick Ed?

10-23-2012, 06:47 PM	#1
Joshua I like French toast sticks. Rookie Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 646	Jets O - Better minus Holmes What I'm seeing from the Jets O over the past three weeks is a team that is utilizing all their weapons. Sanchez used Holmes as a security blanket way too much. Often he would force throws to him. I like that they are now spreading this out some. Kerley looks fantastic and he is the same type of receiver Holmes is. This is a positive thing because the Jets are showing that this supposed group of no name receivers has talent... Kerley - Lighting it up. Making the tough catches, getting separation and getting huge chunks of yardage. S. Hill - Showing he can be physical with DB's as well as get himself open. Ran some nice cutback routes against the Pats. Needs to focus on catching then running. C. Schillens - Nice sized receiver that's made some nice plays. I didn't feel like they utilized him well against New England but hes played pretty well this season. J. Hill - Hasn't played a ton but has looked okay when he has. Got deep in that game against the Texans and dropped it. Has some speed. Got the TD against the Colts. So all in all there is promise in these guys that might not be seen if Santonio didn't go out. We're seeing Kerley become a star and if Santonio was out there he wouldn't be getting this much playing time. Now Revis on the other hand... that can never be a good thing (Cause he is the best at his position) but to Cromartie's credit as well as Wilson's the Jets are surviving this loss pretty well. Most teams never have the luxury of two shut down corners to begin with. Cromartie has struggled in the past at times but he has been lock down the last few weeks. Wilson has improved on the outside and Lankster and Trufant are looking good when they are in the slot. Feeling positive about this team... they can still be a threat in a wide open AFC. They gave the Texans and Pats all they can handle. As this season goes on and these guys get more playing time they'll only get better.

10-24-2012, 02:14 AM	#18
eifmp Veteran Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 104	I totally agree that this Jets offense is better without Holmes, but you've got to add in Hill & Keller. Hill, Keller, and Kerley make a nice trio. If we had a healthy Hill and Keller for the Texans game I think we win that one. Look who we had for receivers in that game. Chaz Schilens --- 7th round pick Jeremy Kerley---5th round pick Jeff Cumberalnd ---Undrafted Clyde Gates ---4th round pick Jason Hill ---3rd Round Pick (from his living room sofa) Sanchez is no Brady (obviously)! There is no way he can win with that lack of talent around him. The fact that we kept it close tells me a lot. I think if we can clean up the mistakes, we can win 9 or 10 games this season.

10-24-2012, 08:07 AM	#20
JetsNeedNewton Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 1,769	Sports writers are starting to agree: http://polldaddy.com/poll/6632769/?v...ults&msg=voted Are the Jets a better Team with or without Santonio Holmes? They are a better team WITH Santonio Holmes 16% 6 votes They are a better team WITHOUT Santonio Holmes 71% 27 votes They are about the same with or without him. 13% 5 votes http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/ar...olmes/12042001 Are the Jets a better team without Santonio Holmes? Submitted by Syndicated sources on October 24, 2012 - 6:49am It has been well documented on the ups and downs Santonio Holmes has experienced in his career with the New York Jets. No one will forget the meltdown he had during the last drive of the last game against the season or the rocky relationship he has had with his QB Mark Sanchez. All that was behind them and it was supposed to be a fresh start for both veterans until Holmes suffered a season ending injury against he 49?ers in week four. Some of the Jets players, specifically his WR unit, have always said that Holmes is a great teammate always willing to help and give tips. Fans’ frustration from what I have been able to see has been on Holmes’ attitude of being a “ME first player”. Just ask Fireman Ed. I’m sure it’s safe to say: NOT A FAN. With Holmes out for the season, I was pondering after three full games without him, ARE THE JETS A BETTER TEAM WITHOUT HIM? Julian Carter and I talk about this very subject on today’s Jets Twit podcast. First let’s look at what Holmes has been able to accomplish in his Jets career: 2010: 52 rec 746 Yds 14.3 Avg 6 TD 0 Fum 2011: 51 rec 654 Yds 12.8 Avg 8 TD 2 Fum 2012: 20 rec 272 Yds 13.6 Avg 1 TD 1 Fum Having only played in 3 and 3/4 games this year, Holmes was putting up the same amount of stats with the exception of getting more targeted which translated in more catches. Mark was clearly trying to target Sanchez a lot more in those first four games, but was he forcing the ball? Some people believe that with Holmes out of the lineup, Mark is more relaxed and is spreading the ball around. A theory is Mark was forcing the ball to Santonio so that the WR wouldn’t eventually have a meltdown like last season. The Jets do have some young inexperienced faces on the WR core, and one that really took advantage of an opportunity was Jeremy Kerley against the New England Patriots in week 7. Jeremy was targeted 11 times with 7 Rec for 120 Yards averaging 17.1 yards per catch. In the first four games, Jeremy was targeted 14 times. In the last game alone he was targeted 11 times. First four games: Targeted 14 - 10 Rec 197 Yards 2 TDs Last 3 Games: Targeted 26 - 15 Rec 238 Yards 0 TDs Kerley has Stepped up his game with Holmes Out As you can see, Jeremy’s numbers are up for the last three games, and if the running game wasn’t as successful as it was against the Colts, I believe Kerley’s numbes would be even higher since they didn’t need to throw in that game. It’s clear that Mark is building some nice chemistry with Kerley and what is appreciated from THIS fan is that there seems to be no distractions or noise off the field. So do you think the Jets are a better team with or without Santonio Holmes? What did he to to firedick Ed?

10-23-2012, 07:20 PM	#3
k.Rhodes25 All League Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4,876	Devin McCourty said before the game that Sanchez was harder to game plan for without Holmes. He doesn't have to force feed Holmes to keep him happy and Holmes gets lazy, he does have a lot of talent though. I am really liking Kerley, he runs good routes and has good hands. Hes really quick and hard to cover out of the slot. He has been our biggest playmaker all season so far, he has 9 catches for over 20+ yards.

10-23-2012, 07:51 PM	#4
PaPZ187 NO paper bag over my face...still GREEN and WHITE till I die! All League Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Lawrence, MA Posts: 3,086	Good thread. Its very promising watching guys like Kerley and Hill building chemistry with Sanchez, as well as becoming better and improving as the season goes on. I really have nothing personal against Holmes, yeah he comes off as an ahole but that I can live with. However, I HATE how he acted like a whiny btch last year and QUIT on his team. He points fingers, but did you see Sanchez or any other teammate point the finger at him when he was fumbling, dropping passes, etc? No because they understand team concept. Fck Holmes. Sorry didn't mean to get off topic, but he really pisses me off. Sent from my LG-P999

10-23-2012, 09:30 PM	#10
sameoldjets All Pro Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,497	it certainly does seem like losing holmes was a plus. however, holmes is a fairly talented receiver and it's hard to see how kerley and hill can make up for him. but football is a game of emotions and if hill and kerley are each just 70% of holmes but show up 100% of the time then they are better than holmes who shows up maybe 25% of the time.

10-23-2012, 09:41 PM	#11
WestCoastOffensive Didn't pull the pin - got blasted anyway Board Moderator Jets Insider VIP Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: SF via Strong Island Posts: 26,972	I told you guys this would work out.

10-24-2012, 02:13 AM	#17
IndianaJet Hoosiers! All League Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Fishers, Indiana Posts: 3,510	I would love to see them give White a chance. Right now this offense is missing a tough 3rd WR with solid hands and who runs good routes and can get open on third downs. White could be that guy. We know Chaz and J Hill are not those guys. I also agree 100% with the original poster. I said a few weeks ago that if you want to give up on this season fine. But don't give up on the season by benching Sanchez. Whether or not you think Sanchez is great or awful, Sanchez let's us run a traditional offense and, in turn, without SantonMEio, develop young guys like Kerely, S. Hill, McKnight and Powell. With Tebow in there we run a gimmick offense and these guys don't develop.

10-24-2012, 06:19 AM	#19
TheMikeIsHot All Pro Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 7,046	I was skeptical about this idea... so many posters here were convinced the offense would be better off without the most talented player... and I didn't buy into it. But I was wrong. They look a lot better without Holmes. Even the run game has improved. And yes, Schilens is a waste of space. Bring up White. He can't be any worse.