Just in Time

[Ruby2]

Originally Posted by Soberphobia

If you knew anything about history of the Reich, especially through Richard J Evans superlative histories, I don't really think you would be saying that - there isn't really that much difference in that specific time period up until 1937.

But anyway, regardless don't let my specific opinion on that deter you from addressing some of the other issues raised in the thread.

Remind me the part where the jews had a independent settlement within Germany and Poland and bombarded those countries with rockets. Like I have previously mentioned this is a complicated situation and it is hard to throw 100 percent support towards Israel, but you're specific position right now on this specific matter is impossible to comprehend.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Ruby2

Remind me the part where the jews had a independent settlement within Germany and Poland and bombarded those countries with rockets. Like I have previously mentioned this is a complicated situation and it is hard to throw 100 percent support towards Israel, but you're specific position right now on this specific matter is impossible to comprehend.

It's not the perfect position, but it's much easier to comprehend than that of the American government. Or the position of the guy who said that Israel should "annihilate these filthy unwashed savages." But you didn't have a problem "comprehending" that one, did you?

They're human beings. It's not a video game. If it was, it would be a pretty terrible one. And there is no moral side. But there is a side with agency and there is a side without agency.

[Soberphobia]

Originally Posted by Ruby2

Remind me the part where the jews had a independent settlement within Germany and Poland and bombarded those countries with rockets. Like I have previously mentioned this is a complicated situation and it is hard to throw 100 percent support towards Israel, but you're specific position right now on this specific matter is impossible to comprehend.

The Reich, up until 1937, systematically removed Jewish people from their homes - ironically the Reich actually secretly sponsored Zionism because they thought it would get the Jews out of Germany and into Palestine. The Jews underwent a systematic and government sponsored form of harassment in order that they would be "persuaded" to move elswhere. Now how is any of this much different from what the current Palestinians are experiencing or have experienced?

[Ruby2]

Originally Posted by Soberphobia

The Reich, up until 1937, systematically removed Jewish people from their homes - ironically the Reich actually secretly sponsored Zionism because they thought it would get the Jews out of Germany and into Palestine. The Jews underwent a systematic and government sponsored form of harassment in order that they would be "persuaded" to move elswhere. Now how is any of this much different from what the current Palestinians are experiencing or have experienced?

I tried, but I can't further seriously entertain this specific point it will just make me frustrated and in the end neither of our opinions will change. Have a lovely evening.

[Axil]

Originally Posted by Soberphobia

The Reich, up until 1937, systematically removed Jewish people from their homes - ironically the Reich actually secretly sponsored Zionism because they thought it would get the Jews out of Germany and into Palestine. The Jews underwent a systematic and government sponsored form of harassment in order that they would be "persuaded" to move elswhere. Now how is any of this much different from what the current Palestinians are experiencing or have experienced?

Because... the Jews in Reich were not launching rockets at German civilians?

[Soberphobia]

Originally Posted by Axil

Because... the Jews in Reich were not launching rockets at German civilians?

You clearly do not know of any history of the Reich - some Jewish people did fight back against the German government, though these days I guess you would call that "terrorism", given that some of that resistance involved bombs and did indeed kill German civilians.

[Soberphobia]

Originally Posted by Ruby2

I tried, but I can't further seriously entertain this specific point it will just make me frustrated and in the end neither of our opinions will change. Have a lovely evening.

Fair enough - have a nice evening yourself.

[sunmou]

Originally Posted by Soberphobia

The Reich, up until 1937, systematically removed Jewish people from their homes - ironically the Reich actually secretly sponsored Zionism because they thought it would get the Jews out of Germany and into Palestine. The Jews underwent a systematic and government sponsored form of harassment in order that they would be "persuaded" to move elswhere. Now how is any of this much different from what the current Palestinians are experiencing or have experienced?

The Zionist, much like the Nazi's want a population to "go away".

[Axil]

Originally Posted by Soberphobia

You clearly do not know of any history of the Reich - some Jewish people did fight back against the German government, though these days I guess you would call that "terrorism", given that some of that resistance involved bombs and did indeed kill German civilians.

You're right, i don't have a great deal of knowledge on the subject. Care to sight some of your sources where the Jews targeted German civilians?

I came across this article, which mentions quite a few ways the Jew's went after the German military, i found no mention of bombing German civilians. Though i find no mention of this either, it would not surprise me if German civilians were occasionally killed when explosives targeting German military detonated.
However surely you wouldn't be so intellectually dishonest as to equate collateral damage from explosive aimed at German military which killed German civilians with Hamas launching rockets specifically targeting Israeli civilians.

[Soberphobia]

Originally Posted by Axil

You're right, i don't have a great deal of knowledge on the subject. Care to sight some of your sources where the Jews targeted German civilians?

I came across this article, which mentions quite a few ways the Jew's went after the German military, i found no mention of bombing German civilians. Though i find no mention of this either, it would not surprise me if German civilians were occasionally killed when explosives targeting German military detonated.
However surely you wouldn't be so intellectually dishonest as to equate collateral damage from explosive aimed at German military which killed German civilians with Hamas launching rockets specifically targeting Israeli civilians.

Let me be clear - I am talking about a specific time period, up until about 1937 and I'm not saying that what the Palestinians are going through matches exactly what the Jewish population of Germany went through at that time. There are some very broad parallels, which I posted above, and it would be silly of me to equate exactly two quite different historical situations in different centuries. I agree that Hamas is a radical organisation targetting civilians - but I think its pretty obvious the Israeli military is doing the exact same thing - unfortunately there are radicals on both sides which means they are a long long way from any long-term peace agreement.

The Jews in Germany around that time were politically involved with the Communist Party (which was banned during the 1930's at one stage), the Nazis had huge running battles with the Communists even before they assumed power. The best books to read on the subject are the Richard J Evans works - he is an acknowledged international expert on the area and has testified as an expert witness against holocaust deniers in several courts.

I hope this makes my position clearer.

[Warfish]

Suprised (to some degree) we have yet to see a thread on the recent warming of the conflict between Hamas and Israel.

On the other forum I reside on, the primarily Euro userbase has been exceedingly critical of Israel, in-effect describing them as de-facto Terrorists and very similar in operation to the Nazi regime, specificly accusing them of attempting to subjugate and exterminate the "palestinian people".

What I find a bit suprising is it's not a small % of these folks (mostly young to middle aged Euros from across the EU and Russia) that feel this way, it is a strong and vocal majority, and (they claim) representative of the greater population in their hom nations.

They say the rocket attacks are not a valid reason for Israels attacks, and that Israel should not only be giving Palestine it's own state, but that attacks from Palestinian territory should be treated (as one example stated) the way the U.K. would treat IRA bombings, i.e. as a criminal issue, not a millitary issue.

So, are we so wrapped up in domestic we lack time for Internation at this point? If not, what are our thoughts on this conflict today?

[chirorob]

Originally Posted by nyctomjetsfan

Sounds like something Hitler attempted...

but lets keep blaming the Palestinians for everything and act like Israel is merely defending herself.

Ummm, if he was Palestinian, would he be writing the sign in English?

[chirorob]

Originally Posted by Axil

Because... the Jews in Reich were not launching rockets at German civilians?

Because in WW II, both sides were not "carpet bombing" entire cities?

[quantum]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Suprised (to some degree) we have yet to see a thread on the recent warming of the conflict between Hamas and Israel.

On the other forum I reside on, the primarily Euro userbase has been exceedingly critical of Israel, in-effect describing them as de-facto Terrorists and very similar in operation to the Nazi regime, specificly accusing them of attempting to subjugate and exterminate the "palestinian people".

What I find a bit suprising is it's not a small % of these folks (mostly young to middle aged Euros from across the EU and Russia) that feel this way, it is a strong and vocal majority, and (they claim) representative of the greater population in their hom nations.

They say the rocket attacks are not a valid reason for Israels attacks, and that Israel should not only be giving Palestine it's own state, but that attacks from Palestinian territory should be treated (as one example stated) the way the U.K. would treat IRA bombings, i.e. as a criminal issue, not a millitary issue.

So, are we so wrapped up in domestic we lack time for Internation at this point? If not, what are our thoughts on this conflict today?

would that be the same EU that was home to pogroms and the Final Solution?

[Ruby2]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Suprised (to some degree) we have yet to see a thread on the recent warming of the conflict between Hamas and Israel.

On the other forum I reside on, the primarily Euro userbase has been exceedingly critical of Israel, in-effect describing them as de-facto Terrorists and very similar in operation to the Nazi regime, specificly accusing them of attempting to subjugate and exterminate the "palestinian people".

What I find a bit suprising is it's not a small % of these folks (mostly young to middle aged Euros from across the EU and Russia) that feel this way, it is a strong and vocal majority, and (they claim) representative of the greater population in their hom nations.

They say the rocket attacks are not a valid reason for Israels attacks, and that Israel should not only be giving Palestine it's own state, but that attacks from Palestinian territory should be treated (as one example stated) the way the U.K. would treat IRA bombings, i.e. as a criminal issue, not a millitary issue.

So, are we so wrapped up in domestic we lack time for Internation at this point? If not, what are our thoughts on this conflict today?

"Just in time" thread

[chiefst2000]

Originally Posted by 21st Amendment

While there are differences, like most Catholics from Northern Ireland I'm pretty sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, but that's not why I decided to post in here.

I really don't understand the political dynamics here in the U.S on this issue. Why is it that the American Republican party are so aligned with Israel? And why do American Jews largely support Democrats.

Democrats and Republicans are both highly supportive of Israel. It has never been a partisan issue. To a small extent in the US hardcore leftwing progressives are really the only group that shows hostility. Obama had been less supportive then predecessors like Clinton and Bush but his reasoning appears more in a flawed concept born of his inexperience that the Muslim world would be less hostile to America and our interested if he showed them a conciliatory stance. Of course anyone that understands politics of the Middle East knows that Muslims there only respect power. I'm personally hoping that Obama, 4 years into the job, will mature a bit and change.

The reason it is different in the US rather then say the UK, Some of Europe and Austrailia is that the media in those countries puts out a false narrative about Israel and its actions. It is evident in this thread where folks from Ireland and Australia are so grossly misinformed about the issues there and the history of the conflict. Another major factor is the inherit antisemitism that is so prominent in UK and Europe. When you hate Jews it is disturbing when they have some power. For so many years you and your ilk in Europe thought of Jews as a sort of Gypsy class or wanderers. A people to sometimes tolerate but nothing more. When times were bad the first thing the Europeans came up with was to toss the Jews in to ovens. F-em right. In England in the middle ages the Christians were forbidden to lend each other money by the Church. The Kings there wanted a banking system so they invited communities of Jews to move there and form the banking system. Of course whenever a debt bubble eventually came and the crown needed to free up the economy they decided the easiest way was to simply kill or kick those Jews out and wash their hands of them. The story is the same throughout Europe.

You people cry for the poor Arabs that supposedly lost their land in Palestine. This is a falsehood in and of itself. Something you simply created. The proof is in the one million + Israeli Arabs that own their homes and are full fledged citizens of Israel. The loss of homes and refugee situation was a direct result of a Fatwa issued by the Grand Mufti of Jeruslem during the 1948 war of independence. The armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq all attacked the fledgling Israeli state simultaneously. This was a war of aggression and extermination on a people that had just been decimated by the European Genocide campaign. The Mufti instructed those few Arabs living in Israel to flee their homes because the fight was coming. He promised they could return in a few weeks when the jews were annihilated. Those Arabs that stayed wound up as citizens in Israel. Those that fled and sided with the Mufti in the war were not allowed to return. Tough brakes. Next time don't back the loser. Meanwhile in the land of truth and factual information the surrounding arab countries, their armies having been crushed by a rag tag bunch of Jewish fighters decided that it was time to kick all the jews out of their countries. Over a million jews were kicked off lands they had owned for 1000's of years. The Jewish community in Iraq dates back to 500BC and the first exile. I will repeat this for those that didn't read it. OVER 1 Million JEWISH FAMILIES kicked out of their homes and land by the ARABS. Israel absorbed most of those refugees. The difference is that the Arab refugees from Pakestine were never absorbed by Egypt and Jordan and the surrounding Arab countries. They are used to create a false justification for their hostilities towards Israel. Their existence has allowed Arab dictators to control their population by consistantly having a scapegoat to point at when things are awful for those people in their home countries.

I have no sympathy for Palestinians that support terror or Hamas or any of it. They are treated much better then the Jews were in their Arab countries of origin. If any of you people here railing against Israel were anything but brainwashed jew haters you would have been here railing against the 50,000 killed in Syria by the dictator there. If you actually cared about the wellbeing of Palestinians you would be calling on Egypt to annex Gaza and Jordan to absorb the West Bank. That would actually quell all of the problems in the ME.

/end rant

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by Ruby2

"Just in time" thread

Really?

/facepalm.

Sorry Mods, by all means, please merge my post into "Just in Time" then.

Never opened that thread, didn't know what it was about by title.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by Soberphobia

You clearly do not know of any history of the Reich - some Jewish people did fight back against the German government, though these days I guess you would call that "terrorism", given that some of that resistance involved bombs and did indeed kill German civilians.

Please site your source for this claim. Specificly that "Jews fought" Germans prior to any Anti-Jewish laws being passed, forced relocations being implemented, etc.

To put it bluntily, I do not believe your claim is backed by history. Jews "fought back" well after the Reich had moved well into the "expropriate, expel, exterminate" stage, but they did not have any actions that could be construed as an equal to the ongoing Hamas-driven rocket attacks into civillian Israel. Your explaination that the "Communists vs. Nazi" street fights in the Wiemar Republic was "Jews fighting back" is both overly simplistic, and only very partially accurate, and absolutely oes not rise to the level of rocket attacks on civillians.

In addition, clearly the Israelis have not done the vast majority of what the Reich did. No Anti-Palestinian Laws along the line of the Anti-Jew laws in Germany, no Kristallnacht, no Israels Dictator writing books about how the world would be better off without Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians, no Israeli concentration camps, no Israeli extermination camps.

However, if we'd like to explore historic ties to Nazi Germany, a number exist between Palestine/Palestinians and the Reich.

For example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini

And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Wa..._(1st_Croatian)

[chiefst2000]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

The Israelis don't want peace at all, though compulsory military service might have a tendency to do that to a society. They voted for a murderous, chauvinist right-wing government, they support them overwhelmingly, and they knew just what they were getting into - and yes, Hamas won clean elections as well, the Palestinians aren't much better. The problem is that the normal people on both sides have come to hate each other enough to vote for monsters who want to keep the war going for as long as possible. If there is a real solution, it will come from either the United States or the Israeli left, not from the likes of Netanyahu.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...same-side.html

Chauvinist, Murderous? LOL you truly are a moron. I wonder what country you live in to have such a twisted view of the world. The Israelis want peace and quiet. The Palestinians want to continue their struggle because their muftis and imams tell them that if they resist eventually they will drink the blood of the jews they exterminate when they take back their land. They actually believe that they will eventually kill all of the Jews living in Israel and take back what they have been brainwashed to believe is their land. There will never be peace until the Arabs living in the territories accept Israel as having the right to exist.

[chiefst2000]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Please site your source for this claim. Specificly that "Jews fought" Germans prior to any Anti-Jewish laws being passed, forced relocations being implemented, etc.

To put it bluntily, I do not believe your claim is backed by history. Jews "fought back" well after the Reich had moved well into the "expropriate, expel, exterminate" stage, but they did not have any actions that could be construed as an equal to the ongoing Hamas-driven rocket attacks into civillian Israel.

In addition, clearly the Israelis have not done the vast majority of what the Reich did. No Anti-Palestinian Laws along the line of the Anti-Jew laws in Germany, no Kristallnacht, no Israels Dictator writing books about how the world would be better off without Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians, no Israeli concentration camps, no Israeli extermination camps.

However, if we'd like to explore historic ties to Nazi Germany, a number exist between Palestine/Palestinians and the Reich.

For example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini

And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Wa..._(1st_Croatian)

Of course there is no such evidence. People that hate Jews often try to subtly infer that the Jews deserved what they got or at least deserved some part of the blame. For Europeans it helps assuage their guilt.