Would the Jets (and Jets Fans) Have Fired Bill Cowher in 1999? Or in 2003?

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by SAR I

Everyone can see that Mark Sanchez is a ball of suck. That isn't the question.

You seem to feel Mark sucks because he has no skills.

I seem to feel that there's a 70% chance you're right.

SAR I

Can't see any reason to debate further. We agree, Mark Sanchez sucks.

Rex, I'd keep him, you wouldn't.

But we both agree, Sanchez sucks. And you do not retain players who suck on a 30 % chance he might be salvagable in a perfect world in a perfect situation with perfect talent around him.

Why SAR, it's nice to find some common ground. As I've said all along, if you need a head to roll, I'll happily trade you Rex's for Sanchez's.

[Darth Vader]

Originally Posted by SAR I

If all that Rex Ryan needed to be was an "established defensive success" to be a great head coach I'd agree with you. What he lacks on the other side of the ball is astounding.

that's right. he lacks a QB that can resist being a complete an utter abortion of a legit NFL player.

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by Darth Vader

that's right. he lacks a QB that can resist being a complete an utter abortion of a legit NFL player.

Go out to the garage, find your car.

Put the wrong gas in it. Scratch the windshield. Let the air out of the tires. Remove the headlights. Put the car in 5th gear. Go for a drive.

How'd you do? Car perform just like it did the night before?

SAR I

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by Warfish

Can't see any reason to debate further. We agree, Mark Sanchez sucks.

Rex, I'd keep him, you wouldn't.

But we both agree, Sanchez sucks. And you do not retain players who suck on a 30 % chance he might be salvagable in a perfect world in a perfect situation with perfect talent around him.

Why SAR, it's nice to find some common ground. As I've said all along, if you need a head to roll, I'll happily trade you Rex's for Sanchez's.

Rex Ryan is not salvageable.

Mark Sanchez might be salvageable.

That is all.

SAR I

[detjetsfan]

Originally Posted by SAR I

Rex Ryan is not salvageable.

Mark Sanchez might be salvageable.

That is all.

SAR I

Matt Leinart for Off Coordinator.

[TheMikeIsHot]

Originally Posted by Darth Vader

that's right. he lacks a QB that can resist being a complete an utter abortion of a legit NFL player.

I agree that Sanchez is a bad QB, and he's the biggest problem with the Jets. But it's hard to ignore the success he had in the playoffs and how he has regressed since then.

Now, most of that is his fault and he must be held accountable. At the same time, as SAR pointed out, the team and Rex impeded his progress every step of the way.

Sanchez was not always an "abortion" of a player and he proved in the playoffs that he could shine and play his best in the biggest moments, sort of an anti-Romo type of player. There were some blocks to build on with him, but the Jets threw dynamite into the foundation and blew it all up.

I will always believe that if there were a competent coaching staff and offensive skill players here the last two years, he would have grown as a player, not taken several steps backwards. The Sanchez debacle would have NEVER happened with a franchise like Pittsburgh, where players usually improve because of solid coaches and a consistently capable roster of players.

[wepnx]

Originally Posted by chirorob

Coaches will always have up and down seasons unless they have an elite QB.

But, Cowher's teams did not quit on him, played hard, played smart, and were tough. If you can be consistent, and keep the team, and have them playing hard, you can win.

Honestly, until the Jets find a real QB, they aren't winning the division for the next 3-4 years, until Brady retires. But if they are tough, and play hard, and fight, and put Brady on his butt and win a few, maybe they can go on a playoff run and do something.

Excuse me but Cowher's team lost to the Herm Jets 3-0 or 6-3. That kind of loss can be looked at as quitting also

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by SAR I

Rex Ryan is not salvageable.

Mark Sanchez might be salvageable.

That is all.

SAR I

A 30% chance of "might" be at best salvagable, and even that only in a perfect world with a "Top 10 elite Defense, Top 10 elite Running Game and Top 10 elite talent" around him, as you've said he needs, is simply a bad gamble.

So you're right, that is all....for Mark Sanchez in NY.

[quantum]

Originally Posted by Warfish

I think that both Ownership and teh Fans both would havefired or wanted fired Cowher in his two 6-10 seasons before he won it all, yes.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/CowhBi0.htm

Maybe we should soldier through another coupe of years with Ryan, and see.

We've gone the route of change every four->five years. Is there anything to be said for soldiering through a bad downturn, staying with the same guy, as Pittsburgh did, and see if he rises up to the challenge?

I don't disagree Rex has flaws, especially his loyalty to his guys....like Sanchez.

But is it truly impossible that Rex could win, if given a mid-level QB to work with (not, as we have now, the worst QB of the past 4 years), and a quality O-Co?

If ownership hires a competant General Manager, who along with Rex brings in a truly top-tier O-Co (Norv Turner for example) and a legitimate Mid-Tier QB Candidate, is it possible Rex could be a successful Coach again in New York?

Maybe perserverence is a solution the Jets haven't yet tried.

After all, Bill Cowher was a two-time 6-10 Coach after 12 long seasons in Pittsburgh and he wasn't fired. That risk paid off.

Just tossing it out there.

this is what I posted in the Hampur:

My theory is that the fans' desire for another SB and their extreme lack of patience forces the organization into poor, desperate decisions which are ultimately self-defeating.

so, I'm onboard Fish.

[patman]

How many times did he finish 1st in his division. he made the playoffs 6 times in a row. Did he ever cause a segment of the fanbase to be embarased to be Jet fans. Did he have an owner to write checks? Who lost more prime FA the Pitt during those years. How many different qbs did he make the playoffs with.

Rex deserves to stay on but to compare his accomplishments to Cowher is a stretch.

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by quantum

this is what I posted in the Hampur:

My theory is that the fans' desire for another SB and their extreme lack of patience forces the organization into poor, desperate decisions which are ultimately self-defeating.

so, I'm onboard Fish.

That is completely incorrect and, frankly, is an insult to Jets fans.

The average length of employment for an NFL head coach since the start of the 2001 campaign is 3.7 seasons.

Herman Edwards (5 seasons)
Eric Mangini (3 seasons)
Rex Ryan (4 seasons)

Jets average since 2001: 4 seasons which is ahead of the NFL average, not behind it.

The reason you perceive it to be worse than it is is because of the nonsense with Parcells/Groh/Belichick/Edwards which all took place in a 13 month period. Or, perhaps, you are fading back all the way to the mid-90's with Carroll and Kotite which were another anomaly because we were dealing with a old owner who was impatient because he was dying.

Additionally, you're off your rocker if you think that any of these coaching tenures was cut short and hurt the team. If anything, several went on too long and hurt the team. Groh, Edwards, Mangini were all duds who either ran away to college or got a second gig and vanished forever.

This moronic concept of "having consistency at the HC position" only works if you have a fantastic head coach. If not, you're dead. Go ask the Lions. Go ask the Chargers. Having the same HC for 10 years is a dream just like finding a franchise QB for 10 years. If you are incredibly lucky and find one, you are golden. But it can't be manufactured. You can't just say "Herman Edwards I am keeping you for 10 years because that means you're going to be a great head coach". Herman Edwards sucked. Here and in KC, sucked.

If we went with the Warfish plan, Herman Edwards would still be here. We'd have a "consistent" head coach, all right. A consistently lousy head coach.

SAR I

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by detjetsfan

Matt Leinart for Off Coordinator.

I have no idea who that is. I'm an adult. I don't watch college football.

SAR I

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by TheMikeIsHot

I agree that Sanchez is a bad QB, and he's the biggest problem with the Jets. But it's hard to ignore the success he had in the playoffs and how he has regressed since then.

Now, most of that is his fault and he must be held accountable. At the same time, as SAR pointed out, the team and Rex impeded his progress every step of the way.

Sanchez was not always an "abortion" of a player and he proved in the playoffs that he could shine and play his best in the biggest moments, sort of an anti-Romo type of player. There were some blocks to build on with him, but the Jets threw dynamite into the foundation and blew it all up.

I will always believe that if there were a competent coaching staff and offensive skill players here the last two years, he would have grown as a player, not taken several steps backwards. The Sanchez debacle would have NEVER happened with a franchise like Pittsburgh, where players usually improve because of solid coaches and a consistently capable roster of players.

Preach it, brother.

It's amazing, isn't it? Rex Ryan gets complete control of the franchise and runs it into the ground. "Keep him!" the Rex apologists say. Mark Sanchez has no control and gets run into the ground by Rex Ryan. "Cut him!" the ignorant say.

23 year old kid did pretty well here up to his 25th birthday. Then the wheels fell off the Rex Ryan bus, no playmakers and no support on offense, party over. Blame the quarterback. After all, he's the one who got rid of Jericho Cotchery, Leon Washington, Alan Faneca, Damien Woody, Braylon Edwards, Tony Richardson, Brad Smith, and Ladanian Tomlinson. He's the one who decided that Wayne Hunter was a franchise lineman, that Plaxico Burress could last a whole season, that Dustin Keller could stay healthy. Blame Mark Sanchez! He's the reason for all our problems!

SAR I

[KR]

Originally Posted by Warfish

I think that both Ownership and teh Fans both would havefired or wanted fired Cowher in his two 6-10 seasons before he won it all, yes.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/CowhBi0.htm

Maybe we should soldier through another coupe of years with Ryan, and see.

We've gone the route of change every four->five years. Is there anything to be said for soldiering through a bad downturn, staying with the same guy, as Pittsburgh did, and see if he rises up to the challenge?

I don't disagree Rex has flaws, especially his loyalty to his guys....like Sanchez.

But is it truly impossible that Rex could win, if given a mid-level QB to work with (not, as we have now, the worst QB of the past 4 years), and a quality O-Co?

If ownership hires a competant General Manager, who along with Rex brings in a truly top-tier O-Co (Norv Turner for example) and a legitimate Mid-Tier QB Candidate, is it possible Rex could be a successful Coach again in New York?

Maybe perserverence is a solution the Jets haven't yet tried.

After all, Bill Cowher was a two-time 6-10 Coach after 12 long seasons in Pittsburgh and he wasn't fired. That risk paid off.

Just tossing it out there.

Big difference between the two:

With Rex there is no accountability, he is too loyal, and the best player doesn't always play. Rex will always be the last person in NY to realize we need to make a change to a position.

Cowher has his faults but will get Ina players face and hold them accountable. Sometimes it's ok to keep a guy when your 6-10, but Rex has some of the worst faults a coach could have.

[SMC]

Originally Posted by Warfish

I think that both Ownership and teh Fans both would havefired or wanted fired Cowher in his two 6-10 seasons before he won it all, yes.

I appreciate the argument you are making, but the Steeler's situation with Cowher was in no way shape or form comparable to the Jets and Rex.

Cowher started his HC career with 4 straight winning seasons and a SB appearance in his 4th year. Rex, on the other hand, only has 2 winning seasons in 4.

Further, Cowher had 6 straight winning seasons until his first losing season in 1998 (7-9) which was followed by the 6-10 season you mentioned in 1999. He then followed that up with 3 straight winning seasons before the 2003 6-10 season you also mentioned.

So, in 12 seasons up and including that point in time, Cowher had 9 winning seasons, 3 losing seasons, 7 playoff appearances, 7 division championships, and 1 SB appearance.

I dare say that if Rex had taken the Jets to the SB this year (his 4th like Cowher) and in 2015 had his first losing season with the team, I don't think fans or the media would be calling for his ouster.

[freestater]

Originally Posted by SAR I

I have no idea who that is. I'm an adult. I don't watch college football.

SAR I

He's the POS you wanted as our starting QB.

You know... before you took on the task of defending Buttfumble.

[SAR I]

Originally Posted by SMC

I appreciate the argument you are making, but the Steeler's situation with Cowher was in no way shape or form comparable to the Jets and Rex.

Cowher started his HC career with 4 straight winning seasons and a SB appearance in his 4th year. Rex, on the other hand, only has 2 winning seasons in 4.

Further, Cowher had 6 straight winning seasons until his first losing season in 1998 (7-9) which was followed by the 6-10 season you mentioned in 1999. He then followed that up with 3 straight winning seasons before the 2003 6-10 season you also mentioned.

So, in 12 seasons up and including that point in time, Cowher had 9 winning seasons, 3 losing seasons, 7 playoff appearances, 7 division championships, and 1 SB appearance.

I dare say that if Rex had taken the Jets to the SB this year (his 4th like Cowher) and in 2015 had his first losing season with the team, I don't think fans or the media would be calling for his ouster.

Exactly.

It's all a myth. Two myths, actually:

Myth 1: "The Jets are impatient and fire head coaches too quickly."

Myth 2: "If you keep a head coach for 10+ years he's definitely going to be successful."

Warfish wants to talk about the Jets fans who are fickle. How about we talk about the Jets fans who are complacent. How many people wanted Chad Pennington to stay here forever? "I have a dream" Herman Edwards lovers? Vinny 'Mr. Long Island' Testaverde? It goes on and on and on. They adopt them. They're like puppies. Doesn't matter that they suck. Just can't let go.

Just because "Jets" and "Mets" rhyme doesn't mean both fanbases should act the same way.

SAR I

[Traitor Jay & the Woodies]

Originally Posted by SAR I

Exactly.

It's all a myth. Two myths, actually:

Myth 1: "The Jets are impatient and fire head coaches too quickly."

Myth 2: "If you keep a head coach for 10+ years he's definitely going to be successful."

Warfish wants to talk about the Jets fans who are fickle. How about we talk about the Jets fans who are complacent. How many people wanted Chad Pennington to stay here forever? "I have a dream" Herman Edwards lovers? Vinny 'Mr. Long Island' Testaverde? It goes on and on and on. They adopt them. They're like puppies. Doesn't matter that they suck. Just can't let go.

Just because "Jets" and "Mets" rhyme doesn't mean both fanbases should act the same way.

SAR I

Success breeds stability. It isn't the other way around. The mindless Francesa rhetoric about the need for stability isn't based in fact. It's based on mistaking correlation and cause.

[johnnysd]

Originally Posted by Warfish

I think that both Ownership and teh Fans both would havefired or wanted fired Cowher in his two 6-10 seasons before he won it all, yes.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/CowhBi0.htm

Maybe we should soldier through another coupe of years with Ryan, and see.

We've gone the route of change every four->five years. Is there anything to be said for soldiering through a bad downturn, staying with the same guy, as Pittsburgh did, and see if he rises up to the challenge?

I don't disagree Rex has flaws, especially his loyalty to his guys....like Sanchez.

But is it truly impossible that Rex could win, if given a mid-level QB to work with (not, as we have now, the worst QB of the past 4 years), and a quality O-Co?

If ownership hires a competant General Manager, who along with Rex brings in a truly top-tier O-Co (Norv Turner for example) and a legitimate Mid-Tier QB Candidate, is it possible Rex could be a successful Coach again in New York?

Maybe perserverence is a solution the Jets haven't yet tried.

After all, Bill Cowher was a two-time 6-10 Coach after 12 long seasons in Pittsburgh and he wasn't fired. That risk paid off.

Just tossing it out there.

This post stipulates Cowher as a great coach which I disagree with. I never thought Cowher was anything special.

[Warfish]

Originally Posted by SAR I

How about we talk about the Jets fans who are complacent. How many people wanted Chad Pennington to stay here forever? Vinny 'Mr. Long Island' Testaverde? It goes on and on and on. They adopt them. They're like puppies. Doesn't matter that they suck. Just can't let go.

Sounds like you and Mark Sanchez this year. Your rhetoric with him is eerily reminiscent of the Pennington Fans, especially.

To correct your misrepresentation, I am 100% fine if Rex is fired by our new GM. If the GM feels we can do better, I support that.

Are you supportive if the new GM feels we can do better at QB, given you have stated clearly that Mark Sanchez sucks, is is at best only a 30% chance to be salvagable, and even then only with an elite team almost everywhere else around him?

Are you as supportive of ending complacentcy at QB, where we are the worst team in the NFL the last 4 years, as you are at Head Coach?

If you are, then we agree. Whatever the new GM feels is best for the team, at Coach and at QB. Even if we individually may feel the Coach (you) or the QB (me) are the worst thing possible.

Just because "Jets" and "Mets" rhyme doesn't mean both fanbases should act the same way.

I'm not a Mets Fan, so I wouldn't know how that Fanbase acts or thinks. My apologies.