Two more Knick trades????

Originally posted by Riggins44@Feb 15 2004, 08:15 PM
Jetsman 57, fair enough. Thanks for the reply. As anyone will tell you, I don't mind politically incorrect posts on just about any subject. It would be boring around here, if we all posted the same things.

But I think Layden was questioned all the time for these moves. He was singled out by ESPN after trading for Van Horn, with Jay Marriotti leading the charge. Talk about unfair?

In Layden's 3 or 4 seasons, whatever, he had just Doleac and Van Horn that he traded for. He also used 3 2nd round picks on European players. None of those players ever played with the Knicks, and 2 aren't even in the NBA today.

OK, so Layden was called out on ESPN. Like I said, with all these players that Layden got over the stretch of several season's, he was questioned about the racial makeup of the team by ESPN. Now, in a matter of a few weeks all 5 or 6 of those players that he drafted or traded for are gone...right out the door, swiftly.

What can I say? Just wondering aloud about this, because I felt what the cats on ESPN said about Layden was unfair.

Would it be unfair to Zeke too? Probably would be, but it wont matter. If Zeke get's hammered on a few message boards for a few days, who cares? Especially if he's just trying to improve the team, right?

However, Layden and everyone close to him had to hear him getting a lecture (and being slandered) on national TV for the same thing--done to a lesser degree :o

Rigs, it all goes back to Scott Layden's dad, Frank, who was known to have had a, shall we say, sense of urgency towards having white players on his teams. While I wouldn't go so far as to imply that Scott Layden was an out-and-out racist, I do think he tried VERY hard to stay away from very ethnic (read: thug) players.

Originally posted by JetsD-Mastermind+Feb 15 2004, 08:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JetsD-Mastermind @ Feb 15 2004, 08:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Dunks? That makes him good? Dunks don't win games.

He has talent, but very inconsistent.

Big dunks are exciting, but thats not the only reason.

Also, Thomas has more attitude than Vanhorn, and isn't a softy.

All in all Thomas is a better fit and a better player. [/b][/quote]
If your head was a pinata, we'd all be getting ready for a sh*t-shower right now.

I cannot even in good faith give you the sausage. That is how far down on the sausage totem-pole you have slid.

[JetsD-Mastermind]

Originally posted by TomShane+Feb 15 2004, 08:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TomShane @ Feb 15 2004, 08:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Big dunks are exciting, but thats not the only reason.

Also, Thomas has more attitude than Vanhorn, and isn't a softy.

All in all Thomas is a better fit and a better player.

If your head was a pinata, we'd all be getting ready for a sh*t-shower right now.

I cannot even in good faith give you the sausage. That is how far down on the sausage totem-pole you have slid. [/b][/quote]
Whats your deal pal, anytime you don't agree with somebody, you and your 4th grade mentality kicks in.

Your such a loser, I can't believe this, GET A LIFE ALREADY.

When people are trying to have some mature banter, don't even bother to respond with your immature rhetoric. Just go to your parents basement where you live, and bang your head against the wall, because thats all your good for.

[Riggins44]

TS, I agree with you about the Layden's connection to Utah. The Jazz, for many seasons, were quite good, despite the fact that had trouble attracting top black players to Salt Lake City. Doesn't anyone recall Derrick Coleman saying Karl Malone is considered the "NBA's Uncle Tom", due to the fact that he embraced Utah? :ph34r:

Actually that mentality exist's today, as the Jazz couldn't even get former Utah star Andre Miller to go up to Salt Lake. Still, until Harpring and a few others got injured, the Jazz were a major suprise this season.

OK, let's assume Layden had an "affinity" for certain type's of players. The media and some fans did single him out for that. Now, when all those players are traded swiftly, should the media ask the same question regarding the new GM?

What will Marriotti say?

Actually, this is more about the media and fans, than Zeke and Layden.

Maybe I'm asking a question too hot for people to try to answer?

Maybe the reason Layden get's "punked" on ESPN for the same things Isiah will never be taken to task for (fairly or unfairly), can only be explained this way: That's the way things are now.

[JetsD-Mastermind]

There really isn't much racism at all in the NBA.

Layden we can all agree was a rotten GM and really the only thing he did right was................ ok was more then a rotten GM.

I really do think teams sign and trade for players because they think that this player they aquired will make the team better or has 1 year left on there contract so the team can clear salary cap room for next season.

[Riggins44]

Man, respectfully, I feel you miss the point of what I'm trying to get at. No big deal, as your points are valid and respected.

I, despite typing hundreds of words in this thread, never specifically said Isiah or Layden was a racist.

Instead, I wondered why 4 or 5 ESPN panelist would agree with some bloated turd that basically said the Van Horn trade was "racially motivated".

Now, I'd bet the same people won't touch this Isiah trading spurt with a 100 foot pole :blink:


P.S: Racially motivated decsions can happen anywhere, including the NBA. The only problem is, that teams that want to win, need the 12 best players out there, regardless of race or ethnicity.

Maybe some White or Black GM's do have an agenda, sometimes? Who can say no for sure?

But the same folks that put one and one together to come up with Layden being racist, should either apply the same worthless formula to all, or better yet, shut their traps.

Hear that Jay Marriotti?

[JetsD-Mastermind]

Originally posted by Riggins44@Feb 15 2004, 09:07 PM
Man, respectfully, I feel you miss the point of what I'm trying to get at. No big deal, as your points are valid and respected.

I, despite typing hundreds of words in this thread, never specifically said Isiah or Layden was a racist.

Instead, I wondered why 4 or 5 ESPN panelist would agree with some bloated turd that basically said the Van Horn trade was "racially motivated".

Now, I'd bet the same people won't touch this Isiah trading spurt with a 100 foot pole :blink:


P.S: Racially motivated decsions can happen anywhere, including the NBA. The only problem is, that teams that want to win, need the 12 best players out there, regardless of race or ethnicity.

Maybe some White or Black GM's do have an agenda, sometimes? Who can say no for sure?

But the same folks that put one and one together to come up with Layden being racist, should either apply the same worthless formula to all, or better yet, shut their traps.

Hear that Jay Marriotti?

No, I understand what your saying, its just people coming into the topic right off the bat, might take it another way, so I thought I'd clear it up.

By the way that signature really spooks me out bro. :unsure:

[Riggins44]

Thanks, don't worry, it the first and last time I'll ever post a picture of that dork....Matter of fact, I'll delete it soon :lol:

[JumbalayaJet]

Originally posted by TomShane@Feb 15 2004, 07:09 PM
He may be the one player that you wouldn't trade VanPoontang for.

Somewhat agree, but it's already happened twice. Gotta give Isiah props for trying to shake things up. My one concern about Thomas is that you're giving up a few rpg with the swap. The defense issue is probably a push.

[JetsD-Mastermind]

Originally posted by JumbalayaJet+Feb 16 2004, 06:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JumbalayaJet @ Feb 16 2004, 06:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TomShane@Feb 15 2004, 07:09 PM
He may be the one player that you wouldn't trade VanPoontang for.

Somewhat agree, but it's already happened twice. Gotta give Isiah props for trying to shake things up. My one concern about Thomas is that you're giving up a few rpg with the swap. The defense issue is probably a push. [/b][/quote]
Doleac wasn't much of a big rebounder, he had a decent 15ft jumper, and thats about it.

Mohammed is a talented guy who gives the Knicks a big defensive presence and can grab 10 boards a night.

Tim Thomas isn't as big a rebounder as Vanhorn, but he is a better perimeter defender, much better athlete, and this will allow the Knicks to the run floor quicker and better.

The Knicks get better defensively, athletically, and I think this improves the rebounding because of Mohammed, he is a long player.

[JumbalayaJet]

Originally posted by JetsD-Mastermind@Feb 16 2004, 08:17 PM
Mohammed is a talented guy who gives the Knicks a big defensive presence and can grab 10 boards a night.

Tim Thomas isn't as big a rebounder as Vanhorn, but he is a better perimeter defender, much better athlete, and this will allow the Knicks to the run floor quicker and better.

10 boards now? C'mon, at least try to make some of this stuff believable.

Marbury is not a run & gunner like Kidd. He needs more of a half-court O. He'll actually miss VanInvisibleMan for the outside set-up.

[PhillyJetsPhanatic]

JumbalayaJet, Mohammed made a colossal mistake by coming out a year too early. Actually he was set to be a lottery pick if he left a year later. He overvalued this growth curve coming out of Kentucky. When certain players come out early, it stunts thier growth (William Avery, DeMarr Johnson, Al Harrington). With the right coaching, Nazr can be a solid player in this league still. He was stuck on a bad team (the Hawks) with Ratliff and his max contract stuck in front of him.

As a fan of all ex-Wildcats, I've been watching Mohammed for years. This could be the best situation for him. He can backup the 4 and the 5 and get himself on the court more often. He's a banger on a team that desperately needs one right now. Deke is a shot blocker, but shot blocking sometimes pulls you away from the paint and out of position especially with a good pump fake.

I'm a huge fan of Van Horn, however I think we have enough spot shooters on the outside with Houston setting up at outsider sniper. When you have a 6'10 SF living on the perimeter, that puts a lot of pressure on the 4 and 5 to hold the fort down there. That's a tall task. What Thomas gives you is the athleticism to run up and down the court and the ability to stop the superstar 3 guards in the league. (the deepest position in hte NBA). Thomas can still his the three so defenses have to watch him out there. He does everything Van Horn can do except he can run the court faster and jump slightly higher. Hopefully he can play a better mix of inside and out, opening more options for Marbury.

Marbury isn't really a run and gun PG nor is he aa half court PG as well... he's more of a hybrid who attacks the weakness in a defense on every play. When marbury attacks the paint, Thomas can roam outside . When Marbury is playing the half court set, Thomas has the ability to bang inside.

Like Zeke said, this trade doesn't go through, unless the knicks get BOTH players. Together, they make a great tandem. Lets not forget that this also makes the team a LOT younger.

[JetsD-Mastermind]

Originally posted by JumbalayaJet+Feb 16 2004, 11:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JumbalayaJet @ Feb 16 2004, 11:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--JetsD-Mastermind@Feb 16 2004, 08:17 PM
Mohammed is a talented guy who gives the Knicks a big defensive presence and can grab 10 boards a night.

Tim Thomas isn't as big a rebounder as Vanhorn, but he is a better perimeter defender, much better athlete, and this will allow the Knicks to the run floor quicker and better.

10 boards now? C'mon, at least try to make some of this stuff believable.

Marbury is not a run & gunner like Kidd. He needs more of a half-court O. He'll actually miss VanInvisibleMan for the outside set-up. [/b][/quote]
Have you seen this guy when he starts, he is a great rebounder and good low post scorer.

He was always behind Ratliff in Atlanta, which is why he never got a chance.

Back in 00-01 or 01-02 when he started for Atlanta fulltime he averaged something like 9.5 boards, 10pts, and 1.5 blocks.

This is a guy with a ton of talent, and can be developed itno something alot more.

I like this trade for Thomas and Mohammed because both are players with untapped potential & Isiahs track record with those types is great.

Artest and O'Neal were total underachievers before he came, and he really developed them.

[mbn007]

Originally posted by TomShane+Feb 15 2004, 07:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TomShane @ Feb 15 2004, 07:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Riggins44@Feb 15 2004, 07:16 PM
Honestly, I don't follow the NBA enough to even try to assess these trades. For that reason, I have nothing bad to say about Isiah...

I just think it's weird that a Marriotti can basically slander Scott Layden on TV, while those other fools (The Max idiot, the Andy Pettite look alike and the others), just stood there and laughed and agreed like little sheep dogs.

Isiah has no one to answer to but his bosses, so as long as he trying to win more games, that's all that matters.

As far as Marriotti is concerned, you are right, he an ass.

Marriotti is same man that called Dick Butkus a disgrace for going to the XFL...By the way, saw on ESPN Classic, that Chicago of the NFL dumped Butkus like a sack of spit, the minute his knees went.

Anyway, who the F does that dude think is bullying all these sports figures, for his mere amusement? I guess slander doesn't apply when Marriotti speaks.

You right, he's a politically correct fool.

Maritotti is a tool, and anybody who appears on that program in that format loses any credibility. Then again, credibility in sports journalism died with Will McDonough.


As far as white players in the NBA? I wouldn't place one of them in my top 30. Nowitzki is the best of them, and he's disgusting, weak, soft, and begged out of the playoffs last year. Pathetic. [/b][/quote]
The center on the Pistons, Okur (or something) is a decent player. And he was a second round pick. But Thomas is trying to upgrade the roster, and if the better players are not white players, so be it. I would love Nowitski, but the Knicks don't have something to trade for him. Tim Thomas is a more athletic player then KVH, and if he gets motivated by playing near his hometown, we got the better of this deal.

[mbn007]

Originally posted by JumbalayaJet+Feb 16 2004, 11:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JumbalayaJet @ Feb 16 2004, 11:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--JetsD-Mastermind@Feb 16 2004, 08:17 PM
Mohammed is a talented guy who gives the Knicks a big defensive presence and can grab 10 boards a night.

Tim Thomas isn't as big a rebounder as Vanhorn, but he is a better perimeter defender, much better athlete, and this will allow the Knicks to the run floor quicker and better.

10 boards now? C'mon, at least try to make some of this stuff believable.

Marbury is not a run & gunner like Kidd. He needs more of a half-court O. He'll actually miss VanInvisibleMan for the outside set-up. [/b][/quote]
Tim Thomas is a career 36 % shooter from 3 point land. That's the same range as KVH. Thomas has a more versitle game offensively, and runs the floor better then KVH. He is not a s strong as KVH, and not as good a rebounder. He is a tougher defensive player, and players will not easily drive around him like they can against KVH.

[JetsD-Mastermind]

Originally posted by mbn007+Feb 18 2004, 09:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (mbn007 @ Feb 18 2004, 09:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

10 boards now? C'mon, at least try to make some of this stuff believable.

Marbury is not a run & gunner like Kidd. He needs more of a half-court O. He'll actually miss VanInvisibleMan for the outside set-up.

Tim Thomas is a career 36 % shooter from 3 point land. That's the same range as KVH. Thomas has a more versitle game offensively, and runs the floor better then KVH. He is not a s strong as KVH, and not as good a rebounder. He is a tougher defensive player, and players will not easily drive around him like they can against KVH. [/b][/quote]
I was talking about Mohammed who can get 10 boards a night.

Yes Tim Thomas is a complete upgrade over Vanhorn, who saw the Detriot game last night, the Knicks controlled the paint and the rebounding with out vanhorn.

Originally posted by JetsD-Mastermind+Feb 18 2004, 04:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JetsD-Mastermind @ Feb 18 2004, 04:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Tim Thomas is a career 36 % shooter from 3 point land. That's the same range as KVH. Thomas has a more versitle game offensively, and runs the floor better then KVH. He is not a s strong as KVH, and not as good a rebounder. He is a tougher defensive player, and players will not easily drive around him like they can against KVH.

I was talking about Mohammed who can get 10 boards a night.

Yes Tim Thomas is a complete upgrade over Vanhorn, who saw the Detriot game last night, the Knicks controlled the paint and the rebounding with out vanhorn. [/b][/quote]
Did Tim Thomas have any really neat-o dunks? If he did, that makes the trade all the better!

[JetsD-Mastermind]

Originally posted by TomShane+Feb 19 2004, 11:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TomShane @ Feb 19 2004, 11:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I was talking about Mohammed who can get 10 boards a night.

Yes Tim Thomas is a complete upgrade over Vanhorn, who saw the Detriot game last night, the Knicks controlled the paint and the rebounding with out vanhorn.

Did Tim Thomas have any really neat-o dunks? If he did, that makes the trade all the better! [/b][/quote]
Yet again, get a life bro. okay?

Tim Thomas is an upgrade, because he is as good, maybe better then Vanhorn as a shooter. He's a better shot blocker & perimeter defender.

Thomas is more athletic and more exciting.

Originally posted by JetsD-Mastermind+Feb 19 2004, 04:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JetsD-Mastermind @ Feb 19 2004, 04:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Did Tim Thomas have any really neat-o dunks? If he did, that makes the trade all the better!

Yet again, get a life bro. okay?

Tim Thomas is an upgrade, because he is as good, maybe better then Vanhorn as a shooter. He's a better shot blocker & perimeter defender.

Thomas is more athletic and more exciting. [/b][/quote]
Plus, his dunks are wicked. The true mark of the great player is his dunking. I wish I could dunk, then I, too, would be a great player. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[mbn007]

Career wise, both KVH and Thomas are about 36% from 3 point range, so it's a wash there. Thomas is a much better defensive player, especially on the perimeter. He is a better shot blocker, although neither one is exactly like Bill Russell (or Manute Bol, for that matter ). KVH is a better rebounder.

Thomas should be able to run with Marbury better than KVH ever could hope to. If the fact that he's playing near his hometown motivates him, this could be a hugh deal for the Knicks.

Time will tell.