More from our liberal friends...great patriots! - Page 2

Come Back to NY · 11-09-2004, 10:58 AM

[quote][i]Originally posted by R. Tyme+Nov 9 2004, 10:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (R. Tyme @ Nov 9 2004, 10:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-jets5ever[/i]@Nov 8 2004, 03:01 PM
[b]
Also, it is not your girl's uterus we care about, it is the living human being inside of that uterus that we are defending from butchery. I know that we live in a Me First time, but the right to life of an unborn child supercedes the right to not be inconvenienced that a woman has. Sorry, this is basic stuff. [/b][/quote]
baby-killers.....pro-choice...pro-life....

Someone on the board said (think it was CBTNY) why not call it what it is....yes let's call it PRO-CONTROL.

[/b][/quote]
Wasn't me....while I understand in certain cases abortion may have to be considered (rape, incest, mother's life is in danger) my problem people who believe in abortion should call themsleves that; PRO-ABORTION.

Rather they hide under the disguise of PRO-CHOICE when most of them are anything but pro-choice! (gun control, "no" to school vouchers)

ShadeTree#55 · 11-09-2004, 11:00 AM

Pro-Aboriton is alright with me, I am pro Death Penalty.

I would rather a section 8 retard wefare loser get an abortion than have to pay for the kid for 18 years.

jets5ever · 11-09-2004, 11:00 AM

How dare you kill a living human being?

Do you deny that the vast majority fo abortions are performed for birth control purposes?

You don't care about the lives of unborn children, I do. We are not talking about a kidney here, R. Tyme. We are not saying that a woman can't choose what to do about a cancerous kidney. We are talking about a living, breathing human being. It's not a casserole that's baking in there, it is a person, and that person has rights that supercede your right to not be inconvenienced.

Your post is indiciative of your selfish mind-set. Me, me, me, me, me, me.

So, there is no rational defense of the pre-meditated slaughter of innocent human beings. None. I don't care of you get outraged or not. Women DO have control - they CHOOSE to engage in activity that may get them pregnant. Biology, not oppession or the government, dictates that women get pregnant. That's the way it is. Speculating about how the world would be if men got pregnant instead is pointless and unrealistic, unless you are enrolled in a creative writing class.

TheBrodyMan · 11-09-2004, 11:02 AM

[quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 10:00 AM
[b] How dare you kill a living human being?

Do you deny that the vast majority fo abortions are performed for birth control purposes?

You don't care about the lives of unborn children, I do. We are not talking about a kidney here, R. Tyme. We are not saying that a woman can't choose what to do about a cancerous kidney. We are talking about a living, breathing human being. It's not a casserole that's baking in there, it is a person, and that person has rights that supercede your right to not be inconvenienced.

Your post is indiciative of your selfish mind-set. Me, me, me, me, me, me.

So, there is no rational defense of the pre-meditated slaughter of innocent human beings. None. I don't care of you get outraged or not. Women DO have control - they CHOOSE to engage in activity that may get them pregnant. [/b][/quote]
Watch out for the infamous, "What if they got raped?"

Even though rape is the cause every 1 in 1000 abortions. Or maybe its lessened now.

ShadeTree#55 · 11-09-2004, 11:02 AM

There are too many people anyway.

ShadeTree#55 · 11-09-2004, 11:05 AM

I don't have a problem with US dropping bombs on towns with women a children when we have to.

I don't have a problem with killing murders with the death penalty.

I don't have a problem killing off some cells that will turn into a baby sometime if the women chooses to do it.

jets5ever · 11-09-2004, 11:10 AM

Do, "some cells" have beating hearts, respiratory systems, brain activity, central nervous systems, excretory systems, digestive tracts and voluntary movements?

Luckily your mother chose to let you live, huh?

You and I are simply "some cells." You do know that, right?

Section109Row15 · 11-09-2004, 11:14 AM

If you anti-abortionists cared so much about human life you would be against the death penalty, pre-emptive wars, abstinence-only education, etc...

hypocrites.

jets5ever · 11-09-2004, 02:14 PM

[quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 11:14 AM
[b] If you anti-abortionists cared so much about human life you would be against the death penalty, pre-emptive wars, abstinence-only education, etc...

hypocrites. [/b][/quote]
I [i]am[/i] against the death penalty and abstinence-only sex ed.

Pre emptive wars doesn't follow, however, IMO.

I can see your point, and am against the death penalty, but a defendable argument could be made that those deaths are not of "innocent" life, whereas abortions are. But I agree that to be logically consistent, one should be anti-both....

chiefst2000 · 11-09-2004, 02:25 PM

[quote][i]Originally posted by ShadeTree#55[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 11:00 AM
[b] Pro-Aboriton is alright with me, I am pro Death Penalty.

I would rather a section 8 retard wefare loser get an abortion than have to pay for the kid for 18 years. [/b][/quote]
The fact that I agree with you on this issue disturbs me. I'm going to rethink some things :blink:

chiefst2000 · 11-09-2004, 02:28 PM

[quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 11:14 AM
[b] If you anti-abortionists cared so much about human life you would be against the death penalty, pre-emptive wars, abstinence-only education, etc...

hypocrites. [/b][/quote]
Actualy I believe they care about innocent life. I dont think the death penalty applies to innocents. I would also guess that every poster here would be in favor of sex education to include contraception methods.

You are the hypocrite that puts words into peoples mouths.

ShadeTree#55 · 11-09-2004, 02:41 PM

What about the innocents that die in war? You cannot deny that some of the dead in all wars were and are innocents. So to take a stance that protects "unborn" innocents and not those who are caught in the crossfire of a war is assine.

I am willing to realize that some innocents die in war.
I am willing to realize that some people should not bring children in the world.
I am willing to realize that some violent crimes should be punished by death.

Maybe I would promote sterilization of people on welfare if they have an abortion, so they couldn't use it again as a form of birth control.

Of course eduction should be the first option.

jets5ever · 11-09-2004, 02:53 PM

[quote][i]Originally posted by ShadeTree#55[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 02:41 PM
[b] What about the innocents that die in war? You cannot deny that some of the dead in all wars were and are innocents. So to take a stance that protects "unborn" innocents and not those who are caught in the crossfire of a war is assine.

I am willing to realize that some innocents die in war.
I am willing to realize that some people should not bring children in the world.
I am willing to realize that some violent crimes should be punished by death.

Maybe I would promote sterilization of people on welfare if they have an abortion, so they couldn't use it again as a form of birth control.

Of course eduction should be the first option. [/b][/quote]
What about innocents that would die [i]without[/i] war, what about them? If we leave Saddam in power, thousands die. 60,000 per year died as a result of the UN sacntions, in addition to the hundreds of thousands Saddam's goons killed and tortured. So, in between Gulf Wars, we are talking about almost half a million innocent Iraqis dying. So, knowing that innocent people are dying in Iraq with or without war, the philosophical issue becomes; what is the best way to prevent the innocent from dying there over the [i]long-term[/i]? Perhaps this war, with it's high amount of short-term lives lost, would actually end up saving [i]more[/i] lives than it cost over the long term, as an alternative to allowing Saddam and his sons to remain in power.

What about the innocent Iraqis that are being killed by the insurgents? The arab muslims over there are killing each other!

Innocent Israelis die all the time, yet that doesn't deter liberals from supporting Palestine whole-heartedly, while at the same time bemoaning the loss of innocent Iraqi life. No tears shed for the loss of innocent Israeli life, however...they only get morally indignant when Israel launches counter-attacks.

Innocent AMERICANS died on 9-11, yet some still had a problem with our invasion of Afghanistan.

"Some people should not bring children into the world" - is adoption not an option? That statement alone justifies the killing of innocent children? Not IMO.

Come Back to NY · 11-09-2004, 02:54 PM

[quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 11:14 AM
[b] If you anti-abortionists cared so much about human life you would be against the death penalty, pre-emptive wars, abstinence-only education, etc...

hypocrites. [/b][/quote]
So let's get this right...the "Pro-Choice" crowd feels it is the "right" of someone to choose to take the innocent life of an unborn or partially born child, regardless of the fact that they (the unborn/partially born) have done no harm to anyone and do not the the benefit of a court hearing by a jury of their peers or someone to stand up for their rights...

Meanwhile, the death penalty, in which a convicted felon who has usually taken the lives of one or more innocent living individuals then gets every opportunity to defend himself in front of a jury of their peers, (with appeals mind you) is wrong???

And we are hypocrites...that's right, you guys are Pro-Choice...sometimes at least! <_<

ShadeTree#55 · 11-09-2004, 03:03 PM

5ever:

That really doesn't fly.

What about all of the innocents that China has killed in Tibet? Why not attack them, what about Sudan, how many troops are we sending there? All in the name of protecting innocents.

Look war is tricky and innocents are going to die, it is a fact. But taking the high road on one type of innocent life being worth more is bull****.

I am just willing to realize that we have too many people anyway, so if a women choose to abort a baby it is her choice. IMO

I am fine with the death penalty.

I am fine with the loss of life in war.

All are sad, all are tragic. You can only control your own "soul" or whatever.

jets5ever · 11-09-2004, 03:16 PM

[quote][i]Originally posted by ShadeTree#55[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 03:03 PM
[b] 5ever:

That really doesn't fly.

What about all of the innocents that China has killed in Tibet? Why not attack them, what about Sudan, how many troops are we sending there? All in the name of protecting innocents.

Look war is tricky and innocents are going to die, it is a fact. But taking the high road on one type of innocent life being worth more is bull****.

I am just willing to realize that we have too many people anyway, so if a women choose to abort a baby it is her choice. IMO

I am fine with the death penalty.

I am fine with the loss of life in war.

All are sad, all are tragic. [/b][/quote]
Shade-Tree,

You misunderstand - I am not using the "Iraqi Lives" issue as a justification for the Iraw War. IMO, there are plenty of other valid reasons as to why I support that war and, personally, the fact that innocent Iraqis were dying under Saddam really has very little to do with why I support it (but that is another issue entirely).

You accused me of not caring about innocent victims caught in the cross-fire of a war, and that is false and that is what I addressed, however, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I never said we should attack every country in which innocent lives are lost, and don't feel that way. I simply demonstrated that IMO, being against the Iraq War out of concern for the lives if innocent Iraqi citizens is, at best, a complicated issue and that "no war" would cost innocent lives in that region as well. I also thusly feel that your attempt to brand me a hypocrite in regards to my pro-life views are unfair.

You may not agree, but this war in Iraq has the potential to end up with a net saving of innocent lives, if the situation improves to the point where Iraq is a stable and less repressive society than it was under Hussein. You haven't accounted for the loss of innocent ife going on prior to the war, and that is simply too relevant to dismiss from the equation. What stance could one possible take take that would protect innocent lives in Iraq? War? No. No war? No. You can see the conundrum your simplicity creates.

That, and I am simply horrified by abortion. I think it is atrocious. I can appreciate that I won't change anyone's mind about it, but what can I say - it's the way I feel.

ShadeTree#55 · 11-09-2004, 03:19 PM

I appreciate your opinion, I love to discuss things in a manner that doesn't degenerate to name calling. I know I won't change your mind either, I just want to throw out ideas to spark discussion and thought on an issue that too often divides our nation.

I am 100% behind the action in Iraq, I just differ on the abortion issue.

jets5ever · 11-09-2004, 03:48 PM

[quote][i]Originally posted by ShadeTree#55[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 03:19 PM
[b] I appreciate your opinion, I love to discuss things in a manner that doesn't degenerate to name calling. I know I won't change your mind either, I just want to throw out ideas to spark discussion and thought on an issue that too often divides our nation.

I am 100% behind the action in Iraq, I just differ on the abortion issue. [/b][/quote]
Agreed, I appreciate your opinion as well. Thanks for the good-faith replies. You certainly have my respect for future posts....

Section109Row15 · 11-09-2004, 03:57 PM

[quote][b]Actualy I believe they care about innocent life. I dont think the death penalty applies to innocents. I would also guess that every poster here would be in favor of sex education to include contraception methods.

You are the hypocrite that puts words into peoples mouths. [/b][/quote]

The death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment. The people put to death are not always guilty, they are not always fairly represented, and they are disproportionatly minorities. Add to that the fact that it costs more to put someone to death than to have them in prison for life.

You may think that everyone here is in support for comprehensive sex education, but that is not the case. Catholics don't believe in contraception. Bush sent one of his aides to the world summit on overpopulation, and the guy stood infront of the summit and told them that abstinence programs are the way to curb over population. Don't be so naive to think that the Republican party as a whole shares your Guilliani moderate views. The base of the Republican party is fighting for creationism, abstinence programs, etc... Wake-up.

Come Back to NY · 11-09-2004, 04:02 PM

[quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 03:57 PM
[b] [quote][b]Actualy I believe they care about innocent life. I dont think the death penalty applies to innocents. I would also guess that every poster here would be in favor of sex education to include contraception methods.

You are the hypocrite that puts words into peoples mouths. [/b][/quote]

The death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment. The people put to death are not always guilty, they are not always fairly represented, and they are disproportionatly minorities. Add to that the fact that it costs more to put someone to death than to have them in prison for life.

[/b][/quote]
Abortion is cruel and unusual punishment....The babies put to death are NEVER guilty and they are NEVER fairly represented.

11-09-2004, 10:58 AM	#21
Come Back to NY Making lotsa $$$ off obama's stupidity... Jets Insider VIP JetsInsider.com Legend Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 31,407	[quote][i]Originally posted by R. Tyme+Nov 9 2004, 10:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>[b]QUOTE[/b] (R. Tyme @ Nov 9 2004, 10:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-jets5ever[/i]@Nov 8 2004, 03:01 PM [b] Also, it is not your girl's uterus we care about, it is the living human being inside of that uterus that we are defending from butchery. I know that we live in a Me First time, but the right to life of an unborn child supercedes the right to not be inconvenienced that a woman has. Sorry, this is basic stuff. [/b][/quote] baby-killers.....pro-choice...pro-life.... Someone on the board said (think it was CBTNY) why not call it what it is....yes let's call it PRO-CONTROL. [/b][/quote] Wasn't me....while I understand in certain cases abortion may have to be considered (rape, incest, mother's life is in danger) my problem people who believe in abortion should call themsleves that; PRO-ABORTION. Rather they hide under the disguise of PRO-CHOICE when most of them are anything but pro-choice! (gun control, "no" to school vouchers)

11-09-2004, 11:00 AM	#22
ShadeTree#55 All League Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 717	Pro-Aboriton is alright with me, I am pro Death Penalty. I would rather a section 8 retard wefare loser get an abortion than have to pay for the kid for 18 years.

11-09-2004, 11:00 AM	#23
jets5ever Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Boston Posts: 11,692	How dare you kill a living human being? Do you deny that the vast majority fo abortions are performed for birth control purposes? You don't care about the lives of unborn children, I do. We are not talking about a kidney here, R. Tyme. We are not saying that a woman can't choose what to do about a cancerous kidney. We are talking about a living, breathing human being. It's not a casserole that's baking in there, it is a person, and that person has rights that supercede your right to not be inconvenienced. Your post is indiciative of your selfish mind-set. Me, me, me, me, me, me. So, there is no rational defense of the pre-meditated slaughter of innocent human beings. None. I don't care of you get outraged or not. Women DO have control - they CHOOSE to engage in activity that may get them pregnant. Biology, not oppession or the government, dictates that women get pregnant. That's the way it is. Speculating about how the world would be if men got pregnant instead is pointless and unrealistic, unless you are enrolled in a creative writing class.

11-09-2004, 11:02 AM	#24
TheBrodyMan Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Brooklyn/Austin Posts: 2,712	[quote][i]Originally posted by jets5ever[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 10:00 AM [b] How dare you kill a living human being? Do you deny that the vast majority fo abortions are performed for birth control purposes? You don't care about the lives of unborn children, I do. We are not talking about a kidney here, R. Tyme. We are not saying that a woman can't choose what to do about a cancerous kidney. We are talking about a living, breathing human being. It's not a casserole that's baking in there, it is a person, and that person has rights that supercede your right to not be inconvenienced. Your post is indiciative of your selfish mind-set. Me, me, me, me, me, me. So, there is no rational defense of the pre-meditated slaughter of innocent human beings. None. I don't care of you get outraged or not. Women DO have control - they CHOOSE to engage in activity that may get them pregnant. [/b][/quote] Watch out for the infamous, "What if they got raped?" Even though rape is the cause every 1 in 1000 abortions. Or maybe its lessened now.

11-09-2004, 11:05 AM	#26
ShadeTree#55 All League Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 717	I don't have a problem with US dropping bombs on towns with women a children when we have to. I don't have a problem with killing murders with the death penalty. I don't have a problem killing off some cells that will turn into a baby sometime if the women chooses to do it.

11-09-2004, 11:10 AM	#27
jets5ever Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Boston Posts: 11,692	Do, "some cells" have beating hearts, respiratory systems, brain activity, central nervous systems, excretory systems, digestive tracts and voluntary movements? Luckily your mother chose to let you live, huh? You and I are simply "some cells." You do know that, right?

11-09-2004, 11:14 AM	#28
Section109Row15 Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Washington, D.C. Posts: 3,406	If you anti-abortionists cared so much about human life you would be against the death penalty, pre-emptive wars, abstinence-only education, etc... hypocrites.

11-09-2004, 02:14 PM	#29
jets5ever Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Boston Posts: 11,692	[quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 11:14 AM [b] If you anti-abortionists cared so much about human life you would be against the death penalty, pre-emptive wars, abstinence-only education, etc... hypocrites. [/b][/quote] I [i]am[/i] against the death penalty and abstinence-only sex ed. Pre emptive wars doesn't follow, however, IMO. I can see your point, and am against the death penalty, but a defendable argument could be made that those deaths are not of "innocent" life, whereas abortions are. But I agree that to be logically consistent, one should be anti-both....

11-09-2004, 02:25 PM	#30
chiefst2000 Champion of Common Sense All Pro Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 5,829	[quote][i]Originally posted by ShadeTree#55[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 11:00 AM [b] Pro-Aboriton is alright with me, I am pro Death Penalty. I would rather a section 8 retard wefare loser get an abortion than have to pay for the kid for 18 years. [/b][/quote] The fact that I agree with you on this issue disturbs me. I'm going to rethink some things :blink:

11-09-2004, 02:28 PM	#31
chiefst2000 Champion of Common Sense All Pro Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 5,829	[quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 11:14 AM [b] If you anti-abortionists cared so much about human life you would be against the death penalty, pre-emptive wars, abstinence-only education, etc... hypocrites. [/b][/quote] Actualy I believe they care about innocent life. I dont think the death penalty applies to innocents. I would also guess that every poster here would be in favor of sex education to include contraception methods. You are the hypocrite that puts words into peoples mouths.

11-09-2004, 02:41 PM	#32
ShadeTree#55 All League Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 717	What about the innocents that die in war? You cannot deny that some of the dead in all wars were and are innocents. So to take a stance that protects "unborn" innocents and not those who are caught in the crossfire of a war is assine. I am willing to realize that some innocents die in war. I am willing to realize that some people should not bring children in the world. I am willing to realize that some violent crimes should be punished by death. Maybe I would promote sterilization of people on welfare if they have an abortion, so they couldn't use it again as a form of birth control. Of course eduction should be the first option.

11-09-2004, 02:53 PM	#33
jets5ever Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Boston Posts: 11,692	[quote][i]Originally posted by ShadeTree#55[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 02:41 PM [b] What about the innocents that die in war? You cannot deny that some of the dead in all wars were and are innocents. So to take a stance that protects "unborn" innocents and not those who are caught in the crossfire of a war is assine. I am willing to realize that some innocents die in war. I am willing to realize that some people should not bring children in the world. I am willing to realize that some violent crimes should be punished by death. Maybe I would promote sterilization of people on welfare if they have an abortion, so they couldn't use it again as a form of birth control. Of course eduction should be the first option. [/b][/quote] What about innocents that would die [i]without[/i] war, what about them? If we leave Saddam in power, thousands die. 60,000 per year died as a result of the UN sacntions, in addition to the hundreds of thousands Saddam's goons killed and tortured. So, in between Gulf Wars, we are talking about almost half a million innocent Iraqis dying. So, knowing that innocent people are dying in Iraq with or without war, the philosophical issue becomes; what is the best way to prevent the innocent from dying there over the [i]long-term[/i]? Perhaps this war, with it's high amount of short-term lives lost, would actually end up saving [i]more[/i] lives than it cost over the long term, as an alternative to allowing Saddam and his sons to remain in power. What about the innocent Iraqis that are being killed by the insurgents? The arab muslims over there are killing each other! Innocent Israelis die all the time, yet that doesn't deter liberals from supporting Palestine whole-heartedly, while at the same time bemoaning the loss of innocent Iraqi life. No tears shed for the loss of innocent Israeli life, however...they only get morally indignant when Israel launches counter-attacks. Innocent AMERICANS died on 9-11, yet some still had a problem with our invasion of Afghanistan. "Some people should not bring children into the world" - is adoption not an option? That statement alone justifies the killing of innocent children? Not IMO.

11-09-2004, 02:54 PM	#34
Come Back to NY Making lotsa $$$ off obama's stupidity... Jets Insider VIP JetsInsider.com Legend Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 31,407	[quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 11:14 AM [b] If you anti-abortionists cared so much about human life you would be against the death penalty, pre-emptive wars, abstinence-only education, etc... hypocrites. [/b][/quote] So let's get this right...the "Pro-Choice" crowd feels it is the "right" of someone to choose to take the innocent life of an unborn or partially born child, regardless of the fact that they (the unborn/partially born) have done no harm to anyone and do not the the benefit of a court hearing by a jury of their peers or someone to stand up for their rights... Meanwhile, the death penalty, in which a convicted felon who has usually taken the lives of one or more innocent living individuals then gets every opportunity to defend himself in front of a jury of their peers, (with appeals mind you) is wrong??? And we are hypocrites...that's right, you guys are Pro-Choice...sometimes at least! <_<

11-09-2004, 03:03 PM	#35
ShadeTree#55 All League Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 717	5ever: That really doesn't fly. What about all of the innocents that China has killed in Tibet? Why not attack them, what about Sudan, how many troops are we sending there? All in the name of protecting innocents. Look war is tricky and innocents are going to die, it is a fact. But taking the high road on one type of innocent life being worth more is bull****. I am just willing to realize that we have too many people anyway, so if a women choose to abort a baby it is her choice. IMO I am fine with the death penalty. I am fine with the loss of life in war. All are sad, all are tragic. You can only control your own "soul" or whatever.

11-09-2004, 03:16 PM	#36
jets5ever Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Boston Posts: 11,692	[quote][i]Originally posted by ShadeTree#55[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 03:03 PM [b] 5ever: That really doesn't fly. What about all of the innocents that China has killed in Tibet? Why not attack them, what about Sudan, how many troops are we sending there? All in the name of protecting innocents. Look war is tricky and innocents are going to die, it is a fact. But taking the high road on one type of innocent life being worth more is bull****. I am just willing to realize that we have too many people anyway, so if a women choose to abort a baby it is her choice. IMO I am fine with the death penalty. I am fine with the loss of life in war. All are sad, all are tragic. [/b][/quote] Shade-Tree, You misunderstand - I am not using the "Iraqi Lives" issue as a justification for the Iraw War. IMO, there are plenty of other valid reasons as to why I support that war and, personally, the fact that innocent Iraqis were dying under Saddam really has very little to do with why I support it (but that is another issue entirely). You accused me of not caring about innocent victims caught in the cross-fire of a war, and that is false and that is what I addressed, however, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I never said we should attack every country in which innocent lives are lost, and don't feel that way. I simply demonstrated that IMO, being against the Iraq War out of concern for the lives if innocent Iraqi citizens is, at best, a complicated issue and that "no war" would cost innocent lives in that region as well. I also thusly feel that your attempt to brand me a hypocrite in regards to my pro-life views are unfair. You may not agree, but this war in Iraq has the potential to end up with a net saving of innocent lives, if the situation improves to the point where Iraq is a stable and less repressive society than it was under Hussein. You haven't accounted for the loss of innocent ife going on prior to the war, and that is simply too relevant to dismiss from the equation. What stance could one possible take take that would protect innocent lives in Iraq? War? No. No war? No. You can see the conundrum your simplicity creates. That, and I am simply horrified by abortion. I think it is atrocious. I can appreciate that I won't change anyone's mind about it, but what can I say - it's the way I feel.

11-09-2004, 03:19 PM	#37
ShadeTree#55 All League Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 717	I appreciate your opinion, I love to discuss things in a manner that doesn't degenerate to name calling. I know I won't change your mind either, I just want to throw out ideas to spark discussion and thought on an issue that too often divides our nation. I am 100% behind the action in Iraq, I just differ on the abortion issue.

11-09-2004, 03:48 PM	#38
jets5ever Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Boston Posts: 11,692	[quote][i]Originally posted by ShadeTree#55[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 03:19 PM [b] I appreciate your opinion, I love to discuss things in a manner that doesn't degenerate to name calling. I know I won't change your mind either, I just want to throw out ideas to spark discussion and thought on an issue that too often divides our nation. I am 100% behind the action in Iraq, I just differ on the abortion issue. [/b][/quote] Agreed, I appreciate your opinion as well. Thanks for the good-faith replies. You certainly have my respect for future posts....

11-09-2004, 03:57 PM	#39
Section109Row15 Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Washington, D.C. Posts: 3,406	[quote][b]Actualy I believe they care about innocent life. I dont think the death penalty applies to innocents. I would also guess that every poster here would be in favor of sex education to include contraception methods. You are the hypocrite that puts words into peoples mouths. [/b][/quote] The death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment. The people put to death are not always guilty, they are not always fairly represented, and they are disproportionatly minorities. Add to that the fact that it costs more to put someone to death than to have them in prison for life. You may think that everyone here is in support for comprehensive sex education, but that is not the case. Catholics don't believe in contraception. Bush sent one of his aides to the world summit on overpopulation, and the guy stood infront of the summit and told them that abstinence programs are the way to curb over population. Don't be so naive to think that the Republican party as a whole shares your Guilliani moderate views. The base of the Republican party is fighting for creationism, abstinence programs, etc... Wake-up.

11-09-2004, 04:02 PM	#40
Come Back to NY Making lotsa $$$ off obama's stupidity... Jets Insider VIP JetsInsider.com Legend Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 31,407	[quote][i]Originally posted by Section109Row15[/i]@Nov 9 2004, 03:57 PM [b] [quote][b]Actualy I believe they care about innocent life. I dont think the death penalty applies to innocents. I would also guess that every poster here would be in favor of sex education to include contraception methods. You are the hypocrite that puts words into peoples mouths. [/b][/quote] The death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment. The people put to death are not always guilty, they are not always fairly represented, and they are disproportionatly minorities. Add to that the fact that it costs more to put someone to death than to have them in prison for life. [/b][/quote] Abortion is cruel and unusual punishment....The babies put to death are NEVER guilty and they are NEVER fairly represented.