RE: The 89 reports of abuse against Schiavo

Lady Jet · 04-17-2005, 11:39 PM

[url]http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/04/15/schiavo.report/[/url]

bitonti · 04-18-2005, 07:52 AM

lets read this article shall we??

[QUOTE][B]Florida agency rejected Schiavo abuse claims
Documents released Friday absolved husband in case[/B]Friday, April 15, 2005 Posted: 11:48 PM EDT (0348 GMT)

(CNN) -- [B]The Florida agency charged with protecting families and children concluded that the husband of Terri Schiavo was not abusive, as her parents bitterly contended, according to documents released Friday[/B].

Mary and Bob Schindler alleged to the Department of Children and Families that Michael Schiavo, who also was his wife's legal guardian, tried to starve her, beat her, inappropriately medicate her, and wanted her dead to gain financially.

[B]"No information or evidence was found to support the allegations," [/B] the agency reported following several extensive investigations. [B]It noted that its conclusions were supported by years of legal and medical documentation.[/B]
The agency, however, was never on the same side in the Schiavo case.

While it cleared Michael Schiavo in its 2003 report, the agency made an 11th-hour effort March 24 at the urging of Florida Gov. Jeb Bush to obtain custody of Terri Schiavo, alleging her husband had abused and exploited her.

Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge George Greer, the same judge who ordered Terri Schiavo's feeding tube removed March 18, refused to grant the petition. Terri Schiavo died March 31. She was 41.

Allegations of abuse were considered and dismissed several times in the 15 years Terri Schiavo was incapacitated.

Greer ordered the DCF to release the records of its investigations Thursday.

The documents include a complaint from 2003 in which the Schindlers accused Schiavo of having said, "I can't wait until the ***** is dead."
[B]
The DCF said its investigation found Michael Schiavo to be a loving spouse who cared deeply about his wife.[/B]

"The staff involved with her care stated the spouse is always courteous and is rarely alone with the patient," the 2003 report found.

"There is no supporting documentation that the spouse ever made statements about 'Is the ***** ever going to die?' or 'When will the ***** die because I will be rich.'"

A DCF report from a year earlier said Michael Schiavo had no access to hundreds of thousands of dollars awarded to his wife from a medical malpractice suit.

"He is only the guardian of person and the financial guardian is a banking institution. All expenditures are authorized by the court and [Michael Schiavo] has no control over them," it said.

The Schindlers made eight complaints to DCF starting in 2001, with each one containing multiple allegations of abuse and neglect.

[B]But agency said it found no evidence that Michael Schiavo abused, neglected or exploited his wife.[/B]

"During the time Mrs. Schiavo has been a patient of hospice [Hospice House Woodside in Pinellas Park], the spouse has always been courteous and very compassionate towards his wife. He is rarely alone with her when he visits and he has never compromised her care," the DCF said.

Terri Schiavo collapsed in 1990 from cardiac arrest and suffered brain damage because of lack of oxygen.

The court battle between her husband and her parents began 1998.

Michael Schiavo contended his wife never would have wanted to live in a "persistent vegetative state."

The Schindlers, staunch Roman Catholics, disputed that condition and claimed their daughter could be rehabilitated with intense therapy.

Their legal battles intensified in the weeks leading up to Terri Schiavo's death, with appeals launched at the U.S. Supreme Court. It refused to hear the case.

After her death, Schiavo's husband had her cremated against the Schindlers' wishes. He intends to have her ashes interred in Pennsylvania, where the couple were raised and married.[/QUOTE]

Piper · 04-18-2005, 10:01 AM

Would you believe a report from Donald Rumsfeld on the Abu Gharib situation?

Enrique Pallazzo · 04-18-2005, 10:06 AM

[QUOTE=bitonti]lets read this article shall we??[/QUOTE]

Suddenly you feel we can rely on the government's involvement to correctly determine what's right and wrong? Didn't courts also decide that OJ Simpson did nothing wrong? After all, he was also a loving spouse who cared deeply for his wife. Right? I'm not saying that Michael Chiavo was or wasn't an abusive husband. I'm only saying that we shouldn't soley rely on the courts and government "agencies" to sway our opinions. Often times those courts' and agencies' hands are tied in researching a case.

bitonti · 04-18-2005, 10:18 AM

hey guys last time i checked this is america not Iraq the burden of proof is on the state - Lady Jet posts an article with a misleading thread title - implies that there was some sort of charge by the state but really they found NOTHING - and the article doesn't even refer to the amount of times he was "reported."

Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

Piper · 04-18-2005, 10:27 AM

[QUOTE=bitonti]hey guys last time i checked this is america not Iraq the burden of proof is on the state - Lady Jet posts an article with a misleading thread title - implies that there was some sort of charge by the state but really they found NOTHING - and the article doesn't even refer to the amount of times he was "reported."

Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.[/QUOTE]

I'm just pointing out the obvious conflict from an agency that clearly has in interest in covering it's own arse.

bitonti · 04-18-2005, 10:31 AM

[QUOTE=Piper]I'm just pointing out the obvious conflict from an agency that clearly has in interest in covering it's own arse.[/QUOTE]

why do they have to cover anything? they investigated the reports, found no wrongdoing and that's that - what's to cover up?

it's often been said that the left are conspiracy theorists - seems to me if you are convinced that Michael beat Terry into PVS then it's time to look in the mirror to see how the tin foil hat looks on your own head. this "abuse" is a blatant conspiracy theory with no root in any real evidence.

Piper · 04-18-2005, 10:34 AM

[QUOTE=bitonti]why do they have to cover anything? they investigated the reports, found no wrongdoing and that's that - what's to cover up?

it's often been said that the left are conspiracy theorists - seems to me if you are convinced that Michael beat Terry into PVS then it's time to look in the mirror to see how the tin foil hat looks on your own head. this "abuse" is a blatant conspiracy theory with no root in any real evidence.[/QUOTE]

I never said they were covering up anything. Simply that they are certainly not motivated to see if they blew it as the parents assert.

bitonti · 04-18-2005, 10:37 AM

[QUOTE=Piper]I never said they were covering up anything. Simply that they are certainly not motivated to see if they blew it as the parents assert.[/QUOTE]

they investigated - what's there to blow? you think they should have found abuse 10 years earlier? based on what exactly? the testimony of tambourine waving, tongue speaking, unemployable fanatics in a hospice parking lot?

there was no evidence, what exactly should we expect them to do? make up evidence to serve a political agenda?

maybe i'm a cynic but i believe most of the time allegations of abuse are treated VERY SERIOUSLY by state-run agencies - and they always err on the side of caution - sometimes to a fault where allegations become sysnomous in the media with guilt -

the fact is if Michael Schiavo was cleared by the state then that should be good enough for everyone, even people that don't agree with the outcome of the case.

we would all hate to be accused of something we didn't do, and then after the state found us clear of any wrongdoing, people still believe us to be guilty and that the state was wrong. Besides being unfair to fellow citizens, it undermines the very fabric of government.

Piper · 04-18-2005, 11:00 AM

[QUOTE=bitonti]they investigated - what's there to blow? you think they should have found abuse 10 years earlier? based on what exactly? the testimony of tambourine waving, tongue speaking, unemployable fanatics in a hospice parking lot?

there was no evidence, what exactly should we expect them to do? make up evidence to serve a political agenda?

maybe i'm a cynic but i believe most of the time allegations of abuse are treated VERY SERIOUSLY by state-run agencies - and they always err on the side of caution - sometimes to a fault where allegations become sysnomous in the media with guilt -

the fact is if Michael Schiavo was cleared by the state then that should be good enough for everyone, even people that don't agree with the outcome of the case.

we would all hate to be accused of something we didn't do, and then after the state found us clear of any wrongdoing, people still believe us to be guilty and that the state was wrong. Besides being unfair to fellow citizens, it undermines the very fabric of government.[/QUOTE]

Now we should trust government...

You are funny, I'll give you that. :P

sackdance · 04-18-2005, 11:48 AM

[QUOTE=Piper]Now we should trust government...

You are funny, I'll give you that. :P[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=SeaGreen][B]Snap![/B][/COLOR]

bitonti · 04-18-2005, 12:15 PM

[QUOTE=Piper]Now we should trust government...

You are funny, I'll give you that. :P[/QUOTE]

most of the time we have no choice

when did I say we shouldn't trust the gov't? WMD was probably the last time i said anything to that effect and I was dead nuts 100% right on that.

when it comes to law enforcement that's a little different than foreign policy - none of us want to live in a society where the court of public opinion rules over the court of law -

Lady Jet · 04-18-2005, 12:36 PM

[QUOTE=bitonti]hey guys last time i checked this is america not Iraq the burden of proof is on the state - Lady Jet posts an article with a misleading thread title - implies that there was some sort of charge by the state but really they found NOTHING - and the article doesn't even refer to the amount of times he was "reported."

Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.[/QUOTE]

:confused:

I posted the article more for follow up purposes, now that the Florida DCF has released its reports. The reports of alledged abuse have been debated on this board, and some believed Michael Schiavo was an abusive husband based on the allegations. This article clearly disputes that.

I'm unsure of where I mislead you, I'm actually in agreement with you on this one.

bitonti · 04-18-2005, 12:37 PM

[QUOTE=Lady Jet]:confused:

I'm unsure of where I mislead you, I'm actually in agreement with you on this one.[/QUOTE]

i apologize for misunderstanding your intentions - :yes:

Lady Jet · 04-18-2005, 12:48 PM

:cool:

Warfish · 04-18-2005, 12:57 PM

[QUOTE=Piper]Now we should trust government...

You are funny, I'll give you that. :P[/QUOTE]

When it backs your own views Piper, you (and I and everyone else here) are exactly the same. We trust the source whenever possible when it backs us up, and don't when it doesn't.

Human nature.

Enrique Pallazzo · 04-18-2005, 01:21 PM

[QUOTE=bitonti]
Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.[/QUOTE]

Like I said... I don't know if MS was or wasn't abusive. I'm only saying that just because the government says he wasn't... doesn't mean he wasn't.

Warfish · 04-18-2005, 02:44 PM

[QUOTE=Enrique Pallazzo]Like I said... I don't know if MS was or wasn't abusive. I'm only saying that just because the government says he wasn't... doesn't mean he wasn't.[/QUOTE]

So by extention, just because the parents claimed she was responsive....doesn't mean she was, right?

Enrique Pallazzo · 04-18-2005, 02:51 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish]So by extention, just because the parents claimed she was responsive....doesn't mean she was, right?[/QUOTE]

correct.

Piper · 04-18-2005, 03:43 PM

[QUOTE=Warfish]When it backs your own views Piper, you (and I and everyone else here) are exactly the same. We trust the source whenever possible when it backs us up, and don't when it doesn't.

Human nature.[/QUOTE]

True. But Bit constantly berates people for 'believing' government sources like Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice etc who are not often likely to be the most objective source for evaluating data.

04-17-2005, 11:39 PM	#1
Lady Jet Veteran Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 1,545	RE: The 89 reports of abuse against Schiavo [url]http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/04/15/schiavo.report/[/url]

04-18-2005, 10:37 AM	#9
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=Piper]I never said they were covering up anything. Simply that they are certainly not motivated to see if they blew it as the parents assert.[/QUOTE] they investigated - what's there to blow? you think they should have found abuse 10 years earlier? based on what exactly? the testimony of tambourine waving, tongue speaking, unemployable fanatics in a hospice parking lot? there was no evidence, what exactly should we expect them to do? make up evidence to serve a political agenda? maybe i'm a cynic but i believe most of the time allegations of abuse are treated VERY SERIOUSLY by state-run agencies - and they always err on the side of caution - sometimes to a fault where allegations become sysnomous in the media with guilt - the fact is if Michael Schiavo was cleared by the state then that should be good enough for everyone, even people that don't agree with the outcome of the case. we would all hate to be accused of something we didn't do, and then after the state found us clear of any wrongdoing, people still believe us to be guilty and that the state was wrong. Besides being unfair to fellow citizens, it undermines the very fabric of government. Last edited by bitonti; 04-18-2005 at 10:39 AM.

04-18-2005, 07:52 AM	#2
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	lets read this article shall we?? [QUOTE][B]Florida agency rejected Schiavo abuse claims Documents released Friday absolved husband in case[/B]Friday, April 15, 2005 Posted: 11:48 PM EDT (0348 GMT) (CNN) -- [B]The Florida agency charged with protecting families and children concluded that the husband of Terri Schiavo was not abusive, as her parents bitterly contended, according to documents released Friday[/B]. Mary and Bob Schindler alleged to the Department of Children and Families that Michael Schiavo, who also was his wife's legal guardian, tried to starve her, beat her, inappropriately medicate her, and wanted her dead to gain financially. [B]"No information or evidence was found to support the allegations," [/B] the agency reported following several extensive investigations. [B]It noted that its conclusions were supported by years of legal and medical documentation.[/B] The agency, however, was never on the same side in the Schiavo case. While it cleared Michael Schiavo in its 2003 report, the agency made an 11th-hour effort March 24 at the urging of Florida Gov. Jeb Bush to obtain custody of Terri Schiavo, alleging her husband had abused and exploited her. Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge George Greer, the same judge who ordered Terri Schiavo's feeding tube removed March 18, refused to grant the petition. Terri Schiavo died March 31. She was 41. Allegations of abuse were considered and dismissed several times in the 15 years Terri Schiavo was incapacitated. Greer ordered the DCF to release the records of its investigations Thursday. The documents include a complaint from 2003 in which the Schindlers accused Schiavo of having said, "I can't wait until the *** is dead." [B] The DCF said its investigation found Michael Schiavo to be a loving spouse who cared deeply about his wife.[/B] "The staff involved with her care stated the spouse is always courteous and is rarely alone with the patient," the 2003 report found. "There is no supporting documentation that the spouse ever made statements about 'Is the * ever going to die?' or 'When will the *** die because I will be rich.'" A DCF report from a year earlier said Michael Schiavo had no access to hundreds of thousands of dollars awarded to his wife from a medical malpractice suit. "He is only the guardian of person and the financial guardian is a banking institution. All expenditures are authorized by the court and [Michael Schiavo] has no control over them," it said. The Schindlers made eight complaints to DCF starting in 2001, with each one containing multiple allegations of abuse and neglect. [B]But agency said it found no evidence that Michael Schiavo abused, neglected or exploited his wife.[/B] "During the time Mrs. Schiavo has been a patient of hospice [Hospice House Woodside in Pinellas Park], the spouse has always been courteous and very compassionate towards his wife. He is rarely alone with her when he visits and he has never compromised her care," the DCF said. Terri Schiavo collapsed in 1990 from cardiac arrest and suffered brain damage because of lack of oxygen. The court battle between her husband and her parents began 1998. Michael Schiavo contended his wife never would have wanted to live in a "persistent vegetative state." The Schindlers, staunch Roman Catholics, disputed that condition and claimed their daughter could be rehabilitated with intense therapy. Their legal battles intensified in the weeks leading up to Terri Schiavo's death, with appeals launched at the U.S. Supreme Court. It refused to hear the case. After her death, Schiavo's husband had her cremated against the Schindlers' wishes. He intends to have her ashes interred in Pennsylvania, where the couple were raised and married.[/QUOTE]

04-18-2005, 10:01 AM	#3
Piper Hall Of Fame Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: L.I. NY (where the Jets used to be from) Posts: 13,197	Would you believe a report from Donald Rumsfeld on the Abu Gharib situation?

04-18-2005, 10:06 AM	#4
Enrique Pallazzo All Pro Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,631	[QUOTE=bitonti]lets read this article shall we??[/QUOTE] Suddenly you feel we can rely on the government's involvement to correctly determine what's right and wrong? Didn't courts also decide that OJ Simpson did nothing wrong? After all, he was also a loving spouse who cared deeply for his wife. Right? I'm not saying that Michael Chiavo was or wasn't an abusive husband. I'm only saying that we shouldn't soley rely on the courts and government "agencies" to sway our opinions. Often times those courts' and agencies' hands are tied in researching a case.

04-18-2005, 10:18 AM	#5
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	hey guys last time i checked this is america not Iraq the burden of proof is on the state - Lady Jet posts an article with a misleading thread title - implies that there was some sort of charge by the state but really they found NOTHING - and the article doesn't even refer to the amount of times he was "reported." Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

04-18-2005, 10:27 AM	#6
Piper Hall Of Fame Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: L.I. NY (where the Jets used to be from) Posts: 13,197	[QUOTE=bitonti]hey guys last time i checked this is america not Iraq the burden of proof is on the state - Lady Jet posts an article with a misleading thread title - implies that there was some sort of charge by the state but really they found NOTHING - and the article doesn't even refer to the amount of times he was "reported." Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.[/QUOTE] I'm just pointing out the obvious conflict from an agency that clearly has in interest in covering it's own arse.

04-18-2005, 10:31 AM	#7
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=Piper]I'm just pointing out the obvious conflict from an agency that clearly has in interest in covering it's own arse.[/QUOTE] why do they have to cover anything? they investigated the reports, found no wrongdoing and that's that - what's to cover up? it's often been said that the left are conspiracy theorists - seems to me if you are convinced that Michael beat Terry into PVS then it's time to look in the mirror to see how the tin foil hat looks on your own head. this "abuse" is a blatant conspiracy theory with no root in any real evidence.

04-18-2005, 10:34 AM	#8
Piper Hall Of Fame Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: L.I. NY (where the Jets used to be from) Posts: 13,197	[QUOTE=bitonti]why do they have to cover anything? they investigated the reports, found no wrongdoing and that's that - what's to cover up? it's often been said that the left are conspiracy theorists - seems to me if you are convinced that Michael beat Terry into PVS then it's time to look in the mirror to see how the tin foil hat looks on your own head. this "abuse" is a blatant conspiracy theory with no root in any real evidence.[/QUOTE] I never said they were covering up anything. Simply that they are certainly not motivated to see if they blew it as the parents assert.

04-18-2005, 11:00 AM	#10
Piper Hall Of Fame Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: L.I. NY (where the Jets used to be from) Posts: 13,197	[QUOTE=bitonti]they investigated - what's there to blow? you think they should have found abuse 10 years earlier? based on what exactly? the testimony of tambourine waving, tongue speaking, unemployable fanatics in a hospice parking lot? there was no evidence, what exactly should we expect them to do? make up evidence to serve a political agenda? maybe i'm a cynic but i believe most of the time allegations of abuse are treated VERY SERIOUSLY by state-run agencies - and they always err on the side of caution - sometimes to a fault where allegations become sysnomous in the media with guilt - the fact is if Michael Schiavo was cleared by the state then that should be good enough for everyone, even people that don't agree with the outcome of the case. we would all hate to be accused of something we didn't do, and then after the state found us clear of any wrongdoing, people still believe us to be guilty and that the state was wrong. Besides being unfair to fellow citizens, it undermines the very fabric of government.[/QUOTE] Now we should trust government... You are funny, I'll give you that. :P

04-18-2005, 11:48 AM	#11
sackdance All Pro Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,888	[QUOTE=Piper]Now we should trust government... You are funny, I'll give you that. :P[/QUOTE] [COLOR=SeaGreen][B]Snap![/B][/COLOR]

04-18-2005, 12:15 PM	#12
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=Piper]Now we should trust government... You are funny, I'll give you that. :P[/QUOTE] most of the time we have no choice when did I say we shouldn't trust the gov't? WMD was probably the last time i said anything to that effect and I was dead nuts 100% right on that. when it comes to law enforcement that's a little different than foreign policy - none of us want to live in a society where the court of public opinion rules over the court of law -

04-18-2005, 12:36 PM	#13
Lady Jet Veteran Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 1,545	[QUOTE=bitonti]hey guys last time i checked this is america not Iraq the burden of proof is on the state - Lady Jet posts an article with a misleading thread title - implies that there was some sort of charge by the state but really they found NOTHING - and the article doesn't even refer to the amount of times he was "reported." Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.[/QUOTE] :confused: I posted the article more for follow up purposes, now that the Florida DCF has released its reports. The reports of alledged abuse have been debated on this board, and some believed Michael Schiavo was an abusive husband based on the allegations. This article clearly disputes that. I'm unsure of where I mislead you, I'm actually in agreement with you on this one.

04-18-2005, 12:37 PM	#14
bitonti searching Hall Of Fame Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philly Posts: 38,786	[QUOTE=Lady Jet]:confused: I'm unsure of where I mislead you, I'm actually in agreement with you on this one.[/QUOTE] i apologize for misunderstanding your intentions - :yes:

04-18-2005, 12:48 PM	#15
Lady Jet Veteran Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 1,545	:cool:

04-18-2005, 12:57 PM	#16
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=Piper]Now we should trust government... You are funny, I'll give you that. :P[/QUOTE] When it backs your own views Piper, you (and I and everyone else here) are exactly the same. We trust the source whenever possible when it backs us up, and don't when it doesn't. Human nature.

04-18-2005, 01:21 PM	#17
Enrique Pallazzo All Pro Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,631	[QUOTE=bitonti] Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.[/QUOTE] Like I said... I don't know if MS was or wasn't abusive. I'm only saying that just because the government says he wasn't... doesn't mean he wasn't.

04-18-2005, 02:44 PM	#18
Warfish JetsInsider.com Legend Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 35,000	[QUOTE=Enrique Pallazzo]Like I said... I don't know if MS was or wasn't abusive. I'm only saying that just because the government says he wasn't... doesn't mean he wasn't.[/QUOTE] So by extention, just because the parents claimed she was responsive....doesn't mean she was, right?

04-18-2005, 02:51 PM	#19
Enrique Pallazzo All Pro Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,631	[QUOTE=Warfish]So by extention, just because the parents claimed she was responsive....doesn't mean she was, right?[/QUOTE] correct.

04-18-2005, 03:43 PM	#20
Piper Hall Of Fame Charter JI Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: L.I. NY (where the Jets used to be from) Posts: 13,197	[QUOTE=Warfish]When it backs your own views Piper, you (and I and everyone else here) are exactly the same. We trust the source whenever possible when it backs us up, and don't when it doesn't. Human nature.[/QUOTE] True. But Bit constantly berates people for 'believing' government sources like Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice etc who are not often likely to be the most objective source for evaluating data.