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Thread: Boston-Cleveland Trade: The Sox Got Socked

  1. #1
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    Boston-Cleveland Trade: The Sox Got Socked

    Look at this trade: Coco Crisp, Dave Riske, and Josh Bard go to Boston; Guillermo Mota, Andy Marte, player to be named, and cash go to Cleveland.

    Coco Crisp is a good player, not a great player. He will never be great. The Red Sox are trying to appease the fans by making a big trade, but it does not help the team. Remember who the Sox traded for Andy Marte? That's right, Edgar Renteria. Marte is one of the top 3rd base prospects in the game. Renteria for Marte was a good trade for the Sox. Trading away Marte will come back to haunt Boston.

    Dave Riske is a decent reliever. He was not used much by Cleveland down the strtech due to his propensity to give up th homerun. Guillermo Mota is a good reliever who had a subpar season. He struggled with injuries and did not pitch well as a closer. The arguement can also be made that the change of location from Florida would better his performance. Take into account his numbers from his LA Dodger days. In 2003 and the first 2/3 of 2004, Mota had ERAs of 1.97 and 2.14 and strikeout totals of 99 and 52, respectively, while setting up Eric Gagne. His struggles began in Florida, where he posted a 4.81 ERA in the final 1/3 of the 2004 season, and a 4.70 ERA in last year's injury-riddled season. Dave Riske is an average/good reliever, while Mota is a good/very good setup man.

    Josh Bard is an average-below average back up catcher he hit .193 in 83 at-bats last season. Kelly Shoppach, on the other hand, was highly regarded in by Red Sox officials. He was viewed as Jason Varitek's successor. Josh Bard cannot even be mentioned in the same breath as Kelly Shoppach. Sure, Shoppach may not turn anything great. But he could. Though with Bard, the Sox know what they are getting: a lower tier backup catcher.

    It is obvious that the Red Sox overpaid for Coco Crisp. In return for a good player in Crisp, a decent reliever in Riske, and a career backup catcher in Bard, Boston gave up a surefire starting and potentially great 3rd baseman in Marte, a good catching prospect who could play in the majors within a season in Shoppach, and a good, if not very good, reliever in Mota.

    The Cleveland Indians fleeced the Red Sox. Although they filled the centerfield gap, the Sox traded away their future at 3rd base and catcher. As the Yankees can attest, trading away propects for a short-term gain will always hurt the team in the longrun.

  2. #2
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    Marte is not a top prospect anymore and Crisp fills the CF/leadoff slot they need for a cheap price and solid upside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBound
    Marte is not a top prospect anymore and Crisp fills the CF/leadoff slot they need for a cheap price and solid upside.
    Actually, Marte is a top 10 prospect in all of baseball. They gave up a lot to get Crisp, but Crisp is a good player and he fills a need. Of course, they also signed Alex Gonzalez to play SS and he's horrible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffWeaverFan
    Actually, Marte is a top 10 prospect in all of baseball.
    Not anymore, he used to be

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBound
    Not anymore, he used to be
    When did that change? I've heard nothing but great things about Marte and was quite upset when they got him for Renteria.

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    The trade was neccessary by the SOX and you have to give up talent to get some back.

    Crisp is Damon only 6 years younger and 40 million cheaper.

    The Braves let Marte go because he wasn't open to moving from 3B a position scouts feel he will never be Major League average at defensively.



    Sox are loaded in the bulllpen so letting Mota go is no big deal and have Lowell at 3B.

    Alex Gonzalez is 1 year removed from being a 15-20 HR guy at SS who is lights out defensively which is huge with Bostons rough infield.

    If the Sox manage to add power at 1B nothing will have changed in the AL East.

    The Yanks Starting Pitching is still a question mark.
    Last edited by chad101; 01-29-2006 at 08:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chad101
    The trade was neccessary by the SOX and you have to give up talent to get some back.

    Crisp is Damon only 6 years younger and 40 million cheaper.

    The Braves let Marte go because he wasn't open to moving from 3B a position scouts feel he will never be Major League average at defensively.



    Sox are loaded in the bulllpen so letting Mota go is no big deal and have Lowell at 3B.

    Alex Gonzalez is 1 year removed from being a 15-20 HR guy at SS who is lights out defensively which is huge with Bostons rough infield.

    If the Sox manage to add power at 1B nothing will have changed in the AL East.

    The Yanks Starting Pitching is still a question mark.
    You're kidding yourself if you think that Crisp and Damon are in the same offensive class. Not to mention, crisp hasnt proven it on a big stage.

    Redsox starting pitching is in even worse shape.

    So the sox traded renteria and damon for crisp? Not good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JetDUDE
    You're kidding yourself if you think that Crisp and Damon are in the same offensive class. Not to mention, crisp hasnt proven it on a big stage.

    Redsox starting pitching is in even worse shape.

    So the sox traded renteria and damon for crisp? Not good.
    Hmm, I think you might want to check Crisp's numbers last year, his age, and his cost compared to Johnny Damon.

    And the Sox added Beckett to the rotation... did you forget that?

    By signing Alex Gonzalez, they are clearly looking to next year with Pedroia or a replacement. I don't think this means they are throwing away the season by any means but they see the value in maintaning a flexible payroll and roster to compete (in their own words) "7 out of 10 years" instead of mortgaging the future and paying the consquences for many years down the line. I wish the Mets adopted ths practice.

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    The Sox rotation presently goes 7 deep: Beckett, Schilling, Wakefield, Arroyo, Papelbon, Clement and Wells, before he gets traded. The bullpen has been reconstructed and now includes Timlin, Seanez, Fiske, Foulke, Hansen, and Delcarmen. How can you possibly say that the Sox pitching isn't better than it was a year ago? Plus, they have Lester waiting in the wings, who most scouts consider the best lefty pitcher in the Minors. The Sox are regrouping, and are ready to make a big run.

    As for their offense, Ortiz, Manny and Varitek are still there. Still formidable in my book. Anyone who discounts the Sox are doing so out of blind loyalty. The Sox will be there in the end.

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    Let's talk about the Yankees starting pitching: Johnson? Fading. Mussina? fading. Pavano? Dare we talk about it? Small? The question mark. This team better score 15 runs a game, because the starting pitching isn't there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scott dierking II
    Let's talk about the Yankees starting pitching: Johnson? Fading. Mussina? fading. Pavano? Dare we talk about it? Small? The question mark. This team better score 15 runs a game, because the starting pitching isn't there.

    So, Johnson (17-8 3.79) is fading, but Schilling (8-8 5.69) is strong?

    Papelbon is a sure thing (3-1 in 3 games started) , but Small (10-0 with 9 starts) is a question mark?

    Arroyo, Wakefield, Clement...all guaranteed 20 game winners and definetly not injury risks.

    I wish I could be a delusional Boston Red Sox fan...Living in suspended reality must be extremely relaxing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scott dierking II
    Let's talk about the Yankees starting pitching: Johnson? Fading. Mussina? fading. Pavano? Dare we talk about it? Small? The question mark. This team better score 15 runs a game, because the starting pitching isn't there.
    Johnson is still a very good pitcher and I expect him to do well this coming year. He had a sub 4.00 ERA in his first season with the Yankees.

    Moose was actually a bit unlucky, but yeah, he has had some injury problems. He'll be an allright pitcher when he's healthy.

    I don't like Pavano, but fact of the matter is he's an average pitcher. 4.40 ERA type guy, which is fine enough to win plenty of games.

    Small? Where the hell do you get Small? Do you even know who the Yankee starters are or did you just remember 4 random names?

    Lets get to actually will be in the starting 5...

    Chien-Ming Wang was great for the Yankees last year and has an excellent G/F ratio. His K numbers will also most likely improve as they were better in the minors.

    Shawn Chacon is a guy with a fantastic curveball and is one of those guys that needed to get out of Colorado. As soon as he did, he was very successful. It should also be mentioned that he lost a few MPH on his fastball because of a minor sprain and that will be back this year.

    Then we get to the Jaret Wright and Aaron Small's of the world.

    It should be mentioned that Damon in CF instead of Bernie will save about 30 runs during the course of the season - which will be an enormous help for the pitching staff.

    Now, to the Sox pitching staff:

    1. Schilling - What to say, what to say... At his age, and with his ankle and season last year, he is at best a question mark. I'm being kind here.

    2. Beckett - Making the switch from a great NL ballpark to a good hitters AL ballpark. Has a seriously screwed up shoulder that raised serious eyebrows with the Red Sox management and they are greatly concerned about that. Has never thrown over 180 innings in a season because of a recurring blister problem. Is a good pitcher when healthy, but we'll see.

    3. Arroyo. Had an enormous decrease in his K/9 and that usually spells danger. He's an allright pitcher, but if he doesn't get those K's back up to his 2004 level, he'll have a big increase in ERA.

    4. Clement. I actually like Clement, but come on... The guy completely screwed up in the 2nd half and had a playoff meltdown (which a lot of scouts thought would happen).

    5. Wakefield - Steady Eddie... He should be allright but he'll have his bad moments. He's a #5 pitcher and it will hurt that he lost his personal catcher.

    6. Papelbon - Well, he's in the BP as of now, but, as of now, he walks too many guys. I think he'll be allright, but I would be surprised if he's anything special this year.

    7. Wells - He'll most likely be traded but he's getting up there in age. He's allright.

    The Sox pitching staff leaves a lot to be desired for with a ton of question marks.

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    coco will be an allstar...and what great offensive numbers has damon put up...we cleveland fans are not happy about this deal...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hendu24
    coco will be an allstar...and what great offensive numbers has damon put up...we cleveland fans are not happy about this deal...
    Understandably because the big time player you got has not proven what he can do at the ML level yet and it is a move that helps the team in 2007 and beyond, not 2006. With 2006 being a year that Indian fans thought they could win it all, I figured you all would not like this deal....

    But, think about it from a different perspective. The guy you replaced Crisp with is Jason Michaels. Jason Michaels had an OBP of .399 last season and if duplicates his 2005 numbers (I know he didn't play in every game and he will have to this year to make the comparison), he will create more runs than Coco Crisp did. I was actually hoping the Yankees would get Michaels to play CF. Honestly, I think Michaels will replace Crisp's loss of production. Then, in 2007 you are going to have Andy Marte producing 30 HR's for you a year from the 3B position.

    I think it's a great deal for the Indians because they were able to get Michaels for Rhodes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffWeaverFan
    Understandably because the big time player you got has not proven what he can do at the ML level yet and it is a move that helps the team in 2007 and beyond, not 2006. With 2006 being a year that Indian fans thought they could win it all, I figured you all would not like this deal....

    But, think about it from a different perspective. The guy you replaced Crisp with is Jason Michaels. Jason Michaels had an OBP of .399 last season and if duplicates his 2005 numbers (I know he didn't play in every game and he will have to this year to make the comparison), he will create more runs than Coco Crisp did. I was actually hoping the Yankees would get Michaels to play CF. Honestly, I think Michaels will replace Crisp's loss of production. Then, in 2007 you are going to have Andy Marte producing 30 HR's for you a year from the 3B position.

    I think it's a great deal for the Indians because they were able to get Michaels for Rhodes.
    people say marte has already plateaued though and that he wont get any better...never seen the kid play myself..but he sure has been moved around quite a bit for a upncomer...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendu24
    people say marte has already plateaued though and that he wont get any better...never seen the kid play myself..but he sure has been moved around quite a bit for a upncomer...
    Marte is an interesting guy. I don't know of anybody who doesn't like him, it's just the degree of how much they like him. Sabermetric guys love him, as evident by Baseball Prospectus' ranking him as the top prospect last season. Traditionalists think he's good, but they don't see him as having a high ceiling. He doesn't put up the numbers those guys like: HR's and AVG, especially when those are the key numbers people want from a third baseman. But he is extremely patient and puts up strong ISO's, because he hits a lot of doubles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBrodyMan
    Marte is an interesting guy. I don't know of anybody who doesn't like him, it's just the degree of how much they like him. Sabermetric guys love him, as evident by Baseball Prospectus' ranking him as the top prospect last season. Traditionalists think he's good, but they don't see him as having a high ceiling. He doesn't put up the numbers those guys like: HR's and AVG, especially when those are the key numbers people want from a third baseman. But he is extremely patient and puts up strong ISO's, because he hits a lot of doubles.
    and brandon phillips was the #1 prospect when the indians traded for him too...i just don't like the deal..

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendu24
    and brandon phillips was the #1 prospect when the indians traded for him too...i just don't like the deal..
    Totally different situation. Phillips was a "tools" guy who had a strong season in A and AA, but never in AAA. Marte has shown great command of the strikezone and although he didn't hit for a high average, still put up a strong OBP (372) and strong SLG (506), which are nice when considering he batted .275- a number that can be given too much weight. Struck out only 83 times in 369 at-bats, and walked 64 times. This guy will be much better than Phillips who was hyped because he had 5 tool "potential".

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBrodyMan
    Totally different situation. Phillips was a "tools" guy who had a strong season in A and AA, but never in AAA. Marte has shown great command of the strikezone and although he didn't hit for a high average, still put up a strong OBP (372) and strong SLG (506), which are nice when considering he batted .275- a number that can be given too much weight. Struck out only 83 times in 369 at-bats, and walked 64 times. This guy will be much better than Phillips who was hyped because he had 5 tool "potential".
    you obviously know more about him than i do..so i will just wait and see...

  20. #20
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    Crisp is Damon only 6 years younger and 40 million cheaper.
    If I remember correctly, Crisp's OBP is not too good. Isn't that huge for a leadoff hitter?

    Sox are loaded in the bulllpen so letting Mota go is no big deal and have Lowell at 3B.
    How can you be "loaded in the bullpen" when you don't have a closer?

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