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Thread: Yankees lineup this year - Torre decides to give other teams an advantage

  1. #1
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    Yankees lineup this year - Torre decides to give other teams an advantage

    Damon
    Jeter
    Sheff
    A-Rod
    Giambi
    Matsui
    Posada
    Bernie
    Cano

    This is the lineup Torre is going with this year... Can anyone explain how Torre picked out this lineup? Does he want to make it easier for opposing managers to matchup their bullpen guys against us late in games? We could easily switch off between lefty and rightys throughout the meat of the lineup but instead Torre decides to go with all the rightys together and Giambi and Matsui together.

    The lineup should be:
    Jeter
    Damon
    A-Rod
    Giambi
    Sheff
    Matsui
    Posada
    Bernie
    Cano

    And if you want to switch Damon and Jeter, fine, no biggy. But to go with 3 rightys 2-4 and the two leftys 5-6 is lunacy. He also plans on DHing Bernie at all times, including against leftys, even though Phillips is 10 times better vs. leftys than Bernie. I can't wait for him to stop managing this team.

  2. #2
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    at least you don't play WILLIE BALL

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffWeaverFan
    Damon
    Jeter
    Sheff
    A-Rod
    Giambi
    Matsui
    Posada
    Bernie
    Cano

    This is the lineup Torre is going with this year... Can anyone explain how Torre picked out this lineup? Does he want to make it easier for opposing managers to matchup their bullpen guys against us late in games? We could easily switch off between lefty and rightys throughout the meat of the lineup but instead Torre decides to go with all the rightys together and Giambi and Matsui together.

    The lineup should be:
    Jeter
    Damon
    A-Rod
    Giambi
    Sheff
    Matsui
    Posada
    Bernie
    Cano

    And if you want to switch Damon and Jeter, fine, no biggy. But to go with 3 rightys 2-4 and the two leftys 5-6 is lunacy. He also plans on DHing Bernie at all times, including against leftys, even though Phillips is 10 times better vs. leftys than Bernie. I can't wait for him to stop managing this team.
    please the righties that you mention hit it against both left and right handers, so it doesn't matter and i am thinking that is Torres thinking. And Bernie had a down year last year with all his personal problems we owe it to him to see if he can bounce back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBound
    at least you don't play WILLIE BALL
    Where do you think that Willie learned that from???? Torre has gotten by with it because he has had great talent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffWeaverFan
    Where do you think that Willie learned that from???? Torre has gotten by with it because he has had great talent.
    whoops!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ucrenegade
    please the righties that you mention hit it against both left and right handers, so it doesn't matter and i am thinking that is Torres thinking. And Bernie had a down year last year with all his personal problems we owe it to him to see if he can bounce back.
    What? A-Rod hits lefty pitching better than righty pitching. Does he still hit righty pitching very well? Yes, because he is one of the best hitters in the game. Sheffield hits lefty pitching MUCH better than righty pitching. Does he still hit righty pitching very well? Yes. Giambi is the opposite. Hits righty pitching MUCH better than lefty pitching. Last year Matsui hit lefty pitching better than righty pitching, but the previous two years he hit righty pitching better. Either way, it doesn't matter for Matsui as he shoudl be hitting 6th as he is.

    The point is that A-Rod and Sheff should be split up with Giambi. That causes opposing managers to make a decision late in games with their bullpen. Do you bring in the LOOGY to face Giambi, and then have to bring in yet another reliever to face Sheff? Or keep the LOOGY in to face Sheff? To you just keep a righty in so that Giambi gets to face a righty instead of a lefty? The point is, it makes the lineup better not only because you will get A-Rod and Sheff facing more leftys than they would and Giambi facing more rightys than he would, and you also make the opposing manager use more guys in his bullpen.

    As for Bernie, what personal problems? I think the best reason for Bernie to bounce back is that he will not be playing in the field much - and that's a good reason. Because of that reason, he will DH for the majority of the time, but there is no way he should DH against leftys. With Bernie's bad shoulder, he can no longer hit leftys. Last year he hit .231/.305/.286 against leftys. Andy Phillips dominates leftys and has been dominating AAA for the last few years. Given the fact that Bernie's shoulder makes it so he can no longer hit leftys with that much effectiveness anymore, and no more power, Phillips should be playing vs. the leftys.

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    Given the results of tonights game I will take this line up. If it starts to cause problems in the future then you tweak it but until then so far so good. Also I don't think Torre would ever bat ARod 3rd and Giambi 4th, but oh well just as long as we keep winning. Also, loved to see Cano dropping a bunt. I really feel like the presence of Damon will get us back to manufacturing more runs. Great game tonight, can't wait until tomorrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JetFreak89
    Given the results of tonights game I will take this line up. If it starts to cause problems in the future then you tweak it but until then so far so good. Also I don't think Torre would ever bat ARod 3rd and Giambi 4th, but oh well just as long as we keep winning. Also, loved to see Cano dropping a bunt. I really feel like the presence of Damon will get us back to manufacturing more runs. Great game tonight, can't wait until tomorrow.
    The lineup is going to score a ton of runs this year no matter what the lineup is. And my point is not that the lineup we had last night will not score a bunch of runs. My point is that in close games, it is much better to split up the two big rightys with a lefty because it causes matchup problems for the opposing manager. Also, Giambi (and A-Rod) have better OBP's than Sheff. So, by moving Giambi and A-Rod up a spot, and moving Sheff down 2 spots, you will get guys that make less outs than Sheff. Meaning, everyone in the lineup will get more AB's.

    It will never cause a problem because all guys are great hitters. But, it will also not cause matchup problems for opposing managers. I don't see why Torre wouldn't bat A-Rod 3 and Giambi 4th as that is a better lineup than what he is doing now.

    I hated seeing Cano drop down that bunt, although it worked. Think about it. We have a pitcher on the mound that couldn't throw any of his pitches for strikes and had already walked 4 guys (should have been 5 but Damon was called out on a high strike) in 1+ innings. Why are we giving up an out, helping the opposing pitcher get an out in the 2nd inning?!? With a lineup as good as the Yankees, giving up outs is counterproductive. Of course, if it was the 8th inning and we are down by a run or tied, then yes, you play for the 1 run, but in the 2nd inning with a struggling pitcher on the mound, there is no way you should consider giving up that out.

    Damon will be good because we now have a legit #2 hitter. But, if this means that we are now going to start bunting guys over and wasting outs, it will hurt us in the long run. It surely hurt us last year in game 5 when Torre inexplicably decided to hit and run with Bernie on the mound, even though Bernie NEVER does that. There's no reason to start manufacturing runs when you have an offense as good as ours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffWeaverFan
    The lineup is going to score a ton of runs this year no matter what the lineup is. And my point is not that the lineup we had last night will not score a bunch of runs. My point is that in close games, it is much better to split up the two big rightys with a lefty because it causes matchup problems for the opposing manager. Also, Giambi (and A-Rod) have better OBP's than Sheff. So, by moving Giambi and A-Rod up a spot, and moving Sheff down 2 spots, you will get guys that make less outs than Sheff. Meaning, everyone in the lineup will get more AB's.

    It will never cause a problem because all guys are great hitters. But, it will also not cause matchup problems for opposing managers. I don't see why Torre wouldn't bat A-Rod 3 and Giambi 4th as that is a better lineup than what he is doing now.

    I hated seeing Cano drop down that bunt, although it worked. Think about it. We have a pitcher on the mound that couldn't throw any of his pitches for strikes and had already walked 4 guys (should have been 5 but Damon was called out on a high strike) in 1+ innings. Why are we giving up an out, helping the opposing pitcher get an out in the 2nd inning?!? With a lineup as good as the Yankees, giving up outs is counterproductive. Of course, if it was the 8th inning and we are down by a run or tied, then yes, you play for the 1 run, but in the 2nd inning with a struggling pitcher on the mound, there is no way you should consider giving up that out.

    Damon will be good because we now have a legit #2 hitter. But, if this means that we are now going to start bunting guys over and wasting outs, it will hurt us in the long run. It surely hurt us last year in game 5 when Torre inexplicably decided to hit and run with Bernie on the mound, even though Bernie NEVER does that. There's no reason to start manufacturing runs when you have an offense as good as ours.
    and if the game was 2-1 or 6-4 I doubt he bunts I mean small ball doesn't win games does it. That is how we lost to the Angels in playoffs. So I was happy to see that Torre let Cano do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ucrenegade
    and if the game was 2-1 or 6-4 I doubt he bunts I mean small ball doesn't win games does it. That is how we lost to the Angels in playoffs. So I was happy to see that Torre let Cano do that.
    Stick to the point at hand. If the game was 2-1 in the 7th, 8th, or 9th inning, then of course you should drop down the bunt. The game was 1-0 in the 2nd inning and the pitcher was struggling. By giving up an out, you are helping out a struggling pitcher and that is counterproductive.

    Repeat after me: The Yankees are not a small ball team. We do not have small ball players. It is idiotic to play small ball when you have a team like this. You play small ball when you are the Angels and you have a lot of low OBP guys, or the Marlins for that matter.

    Well yeah, attempting to play small ball against the Angels was part of the reason we lost. We gave up outs and let pitchers get out of innings. When Ervin Santana came into game 5, he was struggling, and Torre decided to try to put the runners in motion instead of being patient and not give the pitcher a free out. Not surprisingly, it backfired because we had players do things that they were not used to doing.

    By the way, it's not my guess that bunting men over and giving up the out at first base decreases run production - it's a proven fact. And, with a team like the Yankees, it is even worse because our hitters are better.

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    Last night was the perfect example of why the lineup was idiotic. The A's manager brought in his righty reliever and then, once Giambi came up, he brought in his lefty. Now, if you had split up A-Rod and Sheff with Giambi, it would have caused matchup problems for the manager and either Giambi or Sheff would have faced a righty (for Giambi) or lefty (for Sheff).

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    wah wah wah.....stop crying already, they have the best team on "paper" every year, stop complaining. you should be thankful your owner can afford a high payroll and gets his team to the playoffs every year, and btw Torre is an excellent manager. What other manager could handle that pressure year in and year out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaliJetsFan
    wah wah wah.....stop crying already, they have the best team on "paper" every year, stop complaining. you should be thankful your owner can afford a high payroll and gets his team to the playoffs every year, and btw Torre is an excellent manager. What other manager could handle that pressure year in and year out.
    How about you explain to me how the lineup makes sense? If we've had such an excellent manager, and also the best team on paper, then why haven't we won a WS since 2000? Hmm, maybe it was his excellent decision to use Jeff Weaver instead of Mariano Rivera against the Marlins in 2003. Or maybe it was his decision, to not pinch run for Jorge when Wakefield was on the mound in extra innings of game 5 in 2004. I mean honestly, had he not just seen what a pinchrunner can do in Dave Roberts in not only that game but the previous one?

    I'm sure a ton of managers could handle the pressure of making $6 million a year. And honestly, if you don't watch Yankee games, then your opinion of the quality of Torre as a manager means sh*t.

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    If my opinion means **** to you or not i dont care...you are just another whining Yankees fan. Maybe those other teams were "better" than the Yankees? I know its hard for you to accept that but a team wins, not individuals. Blame the players for not performing, not the manager everytime. You werent complaining about torre when he won you those championships were you? Has he suddenly "lost" it? right...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaliJetsFan
    If my opinion means **** to you or not i dont care...you are just another whining Yankees fan. Maybe those other teams were "better" than the Yankees? I know its hard for you to accept that but a team wins, not individuals. Blame the players for not performing, not the manager everytime. You werent complaining about torre when he won you those championships were you? Has he suddenly "lost" it? right...
    OK, so neither of us care about the others opinion. Some of them might have been better, others were not. I blame both the players and the manager.

    Anyways, as Pat Riley says, managers get stale. Torre made some weird decisions back in those days that almost backfired, but the Yanks came through. (Not pinch hitting for Pettitte in the top of the 9th in a 1-0 game when we had a man on 2nd base. Bringing out Graeme Lloyd to start off the close up by a run instead of just going with Wetteland). And, fact is, if you watched Yankee games, you would see that he is not a good in-game manager, never really has been but I do believe it has gotten worse over the last 3 years. Your an Angels fan so you might remember game 5 of last year. Did you realize that it took Torre a few pitches before remembering to pinch run for Sheffield, representing the tying run, with Womack? Honestly, he literally forgot to do it before finally realizing...

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    By the time the players reach the big leagues they know what they have to do in a game to win, what the manager does in game had very little affect on the outcome (except Grady Little perhaps..ha) i think torre's most important contribution is behind the scenes, keeping the team morale together, keeping all his high priced vets and their egos in check. you can second guess any manager, its easy to manage after the fact, hindsight is 20/20 right? the fact is they have been in the playoffs every year since Torre took over and you cant ask for much more than that. I think their lack of pitching is more to blame than the manager.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaliJetsFan
    By the time the players reach the big leagues they know what they have to do in a game to win, what the manager does in game had very little affect on the outcome (except Grady Little perhaps..ha) i think torre's most important contribution is behind the scenes, keeping the team morale together, keeping all his high priced vets and their egos in check. you can second guess any manager, its easy to manage after the fact, hindsight is 20/20 right? the fact is they have been in the playoffs every year since Torre took over and you cant ask for much more than that. I think their lack of pitching is more to blame than the manager.
    I don't really disagree with anything you say. I completely agree about his contribution behind the scenes. But, I have never second guessed Joe - I have only blamed him when I said, before anything happened, that this was a terrible decision. Blaming him for bringing in Scott Proctor last night in a 3-3 game in the bottom of the 9th was not second guessing. You don't bring in your worst reliever in that situation - especially one that just got back with the team after taking care of his very sick (although getting better thankfully), infant daughter.

    Us being in the playoffs though, hasn't much to do with Torre. I think you can admit that if anyone took over as manager of the Yankees starting in 1996, they would also have been in the playoffs every year. The reason for that is because the Yankees have had a ton of talent on the team every year.

    By the way, one thing about Torre's managing suddenly becoming sour - Torre has always been someone that goes with his "gut." If he has a "gut feeling" he goes with it. Back in those championship years, he made some weird "gut" moves that seemed to always work out. It was that Torre magic. Well, those "gut" moves, that are often times a little odd and eyebrow rising, no longer work out.

    Lastly, the pitching is to blame too. No doubt about it - but that doesn't mean the manager should get a free pass. He is the one that constantly used the likes of Felix Heredia, Wayne Franklin, and Alan Embree as his LOOGY even though it was obvious to everyone that those guys were horrible. But, Franklin was one of Torre's guys, Embree was a proven veteran, and Heredia had "electric stuff" even though he couldn't get anyone out.

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    2nd game in a row where this idiotic lineup screwed us. 7th inning, the righty was in to face Jeter, Sheff, and A-Rod. Sheff got a hit and then they went to the lefty for Giambi and Sheff. PUT GIAMBI IN BETWEEN AROD AND SHEFF AND YOU CREATE MATCHUP PROBLEMS. This isn't f*cking rocket science Joe.

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    I've been a Torre hater for since 2002, I cant stand his stupid decisions, especially how he handles the bull pen. I know it wont be long before Im screaming at the TV calling him an idiot again, I almost did it when he had proctor pitch the 9th, but I'll give him a little rope, its still early in the season but Im pretty sure torre will make alot more bonehead moves this year.

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