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Thread: Derek Jeter is NOT Mr. Baseball

  1. #1
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    Derek Jeter is NOT Mr. Baseball

    Regardless of what you think of Arod a leader does not leave team mates to hang out to dry. I am sick of hearing how this is Jeters town...


    Yanks' captain abandons ship

    Refusal to help Alex hurt club




    Derek Jeter has been a flawed captain, writes John Harper.

    If George Steinbrenner thinks that bringing in Lou Piniella is going to solve his Alex Rodriguez problem, and all of the bad karma it has wrought, he clearly isn't in touch with his ballclub.
    There's only one person who can change the dispassionate climate surrounding the Yankees, and it's the reluctant captain, Derek Jeter. But if he hasn't been willing to embrace A-Rod by now, it's hard to believe anything is going to change.

    Not that Jeter can help A-Rod hit the high fastball. Indeed, it has become clear that, for all of A-Rod's talent, his failures in the postseason are due at least partly to the fact that he can't catch up to the high-octane fastball above, say, the thighs.

    Scouts have been saying it more and more - in critical situations, pitchers armed with enough firepower can attack A-Rod boldly up in the strike zone, usually with major success.

    But the bigger problem is A-Rod's addled state of mind, the steady erosion of confidence that made him look clueless at the plate during stretches of the 2006 season, when he was guessing so badly that he was missing sliders by a couple of feet. And that surely is tied to his relationship with Jeter.

    It is no news bulletin that A-Rod wants to be liked, accepted, loved, however you want to say it, by his teammates, especially Jeter. And the captain hasn't budged on the matter, to the point where an ex-teammate, who wouldn't use his name for fear of crossing Jeter, said yesterday it creates a certain tension at times.

    "He won't let Alex in," the former Yankee said of Jeter. "Everyone in there knows it, and it bothers Alex and impacts the clubhouse."

    The result seems to be a negative energy that reveals itself in times of crisis, such as the collapse against the Tigers. Where the Paul O'Neill-Tino Martinez championship teams were inspired by their bond as brothers in arms to play fearlessly, with a joyful all-for-one commitment, it's no coincidence that this group of Yankees has played with fear and uncertainty when pushed in the playoffs the last three years.

    When they need to lean on one another, well, it's as if one doesn't trust the others to hold the net under the tightrope.

    It's not only the A-Rod-Jeter dynamic. Since the high-end free agent shopping began in earnest five years ago, the clubhouse has become more a place of superstars living on their own islands.

    A-Rod, Mike Mussina, Randy Johnson, Gary Sheffield, Jason Giambi, and, mostly because of the language barrier, Hideki Matsui, changed the way the Yankees interacted. Newcomer Johnny Damon tried to bring a sense of esprit de corps this year, and succeeded in loosening up the place a bit, but it's a long way from the frat-house atmosphere he created with the Red Sox.

    Jeter sets the tone for everything the Yankees do, so while he got tons of credit, and rightfully so, when they won, he has to take some of the blame now for allowing the A-Rod mess to seemingly suffocate this team. He has kept A-Rod at arm's length, apparently all because he can't get past the famous Esquire article of five years ago in which A-Rod allowed his jealousy and self-esteem issues to surface for the first time.

    It makes me rethink the whole MVP debate. I wrote a handful of times that I thought Jeter deserved the award this season, and I still think he did more on the field to help his team than anybody else.

    But in light of the Motown Meltdown, and all that it revealed about this team, I have to question how Jeter could be the MVP in a season in which he wouldn't make the slightest effort to offer a hand when A-Rod was flailing in quicksand.

    He refused on several occasions to support A-Rod publicly when the booing was out of control, and he had to know any comments of support would have helped the situation. Isn't that incumbent on him as captain?

    Jeter did go out of his way to support Jason Giambi during the steroids fallout, but he wouldn't go anywhere near the A-Rod controversy. He should have been bigger than that, since he's all about team.

    I don't see how Piniella changes any of that, even if A-Rod is comfortable with him from his days as a young Seattle Mariner, which is why the Yankees need to trade A-Rod, no matter what they do with the manager. Just convince A-Rod it's over for him here, get some pitching from the Angels, and move on.

    Then the Yankees no longer will be paralyzed by the A-Rod soap opera, the chemistry has to improve and they will have taken an important step toward winning in October again.

    Steinbrenner has a right to change managers if he wants, after these back-to-back first-round playoff flops, but if he thinks Piniella addresses the biggest problem the Yankees have, he needs to talk to some of his own players.

  2. #2
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    Good article. Thanks for posting. I definately agree with it. Take the example of a shortstop who was captain of a NY team in another era, Pee Wee Reese. When Jackie Robinson came on board there was grumbling form some of the players who were opposed to integration.

    Reese publically embraced Robinson and sent a strong message to the other Dodger players and to opposing teamates. Robinson is one of us and we stand together.

    Just think if during all the booing of ARod the affect of a public embrace from Jeter would have had. All he had to say was that we all deal with booing which was quite a snippy remark.

    He definately showed that he was more concerned with his personal feelings than what would be best for the team and his teamates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Queens Jet Fan
    Good article. Thanks for posting. I definately agree with it. Take the example of a shortstop who was captain of a NY team in another era, Pee Wee Reese. When Jackie Robinson came on board there was grumbling form some of the players who were opposed to integration.

    Reese publically embraced Robinson and sent a strong message to the other Dodger players and to opposing teamates. Robinson is one of us and we stand together.

    Just think if during all the booing of ARod the affect of a public embrace from Jeter would have had. All he had to say was that we all deal with booing which was quite a snippy remark.

    He definately showed that he was more concerned with his personal feelings than what would be best for the team and his teamates.

    By all accounts Robinson was a great person, A-Rod is just different. Money factors into this as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsman51
    By all accounts Robinson was a great person, A-Rod is just different. Money factors into this as well.
    Yeah he was a great person, but he was also stubborn, hard nosed, and egotistical. His most important quality though was he was a good ball player and helped the Dodgers win.

    ARod is also a good ball player who could help the Yankees win. Jeter should have sucked it up if he personally didn't like him and embraced him as a great player who could help the team.

    IMHO Jeter acted selfishly. His money wasn't threatened.

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    eh, I don't buy it. Unless you were physically in the clubhouse, no one knows how Jeter interracted with ARod on a daily basis. Also, if ARod played crappy because Jeter supposedly gave him the cold shoulder, then that doesn't say a lot about ARod's self-esteem as a professional athlete.

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    Under ordinary circumstances I can understand why Jeter would want no part of defending A-Rod

    These two, some folks may forget, were as close as two friends can be ... they used to stay at each others pad during road trips to the other players city ... I actually remember Jeter often referring to A-Rod as a brother, close as a brother, and that's as close as a friendship can be ... then A-Rod, seemingly out of the blue, blindsided the friend who called him a brother and publicly attacked him in print

    I don't know if you've ever had such a friendship, and been betrayed by someone you would have taken a bullet for, but I have and I know how it feels ... its the ultimate act of betrayal, cause you never saw it coming ... its perhaps the last person on earth, other than immediate family, who you ever would have suspected would someday stick a knife in your back ... and when it happens, after you get over the hurt and anger, you don't ever wanna see that person again much less speak to them or defend them!!

    So on a human level and under ordinary circumstances I can absolutely see where Jeter is coming from with A-Rod, but these are not ordinary circumstances, FAR FROM IT, cause Jeter is the Captain of the NY Yankees and his teams success {or failure} is largely dependant upon A-Rod ... if A-Rod hits in the clutch, the teams chances for success increase substantially, and if he fails to hit in the clutch, the teams chances for success decrease substantially

    IMO its a Catch-22 ... Jeter has every right to detest A-Rod on a human level, or at least keep him at arms length, but he also has a responsability as Captain of the NY Yankees to do everything within his power {on and off the field} to increase this teams chances at success, and there's no doubt he is failing at that in regards to A-Rod

    So here's how I see it, IMO Jeter has two options and he better choose one or he is cheating this baseball team as its Captain, in regards to all that entails ...

    1. Resign as Captain and say you just wanna be a player who does his job on the field

    2. Find it in your heart to forgive A-Rod and make a sincere effort to embrace him


    There's no easy choice ... I know how much he cherishes that Captaincy, and I know what it feels like to be betrayed by someone you would have taken a bullet for ... so I know neither choice is a good one ... but IMO the circumstances, being what they are, dictate that he must choose one or the other

    When you're Captain of a team, you don't get to pick which players you wish to Captain and which you choose to shun ... you are Captain of the whole team, and if you can't treat it that way, give up the Captaincy
    Last edited by Green Jets & Ham; 10-09-2006 at 11:31 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queens Jet Fan
    Good article. Thanks for posting. I definately agree with it. Take the example of a shortstop who was captain of a NY team in another era, Pee Wee Reese. When Jackie Robinson came on board there was grumbling form some of the players who were opposed to integration.

    Reese publically embraced Robinson and sent a strong message to the other Dodger players and to opposing teamates. Robinson is one of us and we stand together.

    Just think if during all the booing of ARod the affect of a public embrace from Jeter would have had. All he had to say was that we all deal with booing which was quite a snippy remark.

    He definately showed that he was more concerned with his personal feelings than what would be best for the team and his teamates.

    are you comparing ARod playing for the Yankees to Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier in Major League Baseball? wow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Queens Jet Fan
    Yeah he was a great person, but he was also stubborn, hard nosed, and egotistical. His most important quality though was he was a good ball player and helped the Dodgers win.

    ARod is also a good ball player who could help the Yankees win. Jeter should have sucked it up if he personally didn't like him and embraced him as a great player who could help the team.

    IMHO Jeter acted selfishly. His money wasn't threatened.
    He may well have. Who knows? You could very well be right. But Paulie brings up a good point. Who knows what the rest of the team thinks of A-Rod. From what I see he's not as close to the rest of the guys as you think.

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    ARod's comments have cause this problem and they have bitten him in the asss big time

    I believe his comments were something along the line of him being a better player than Derek because Derek bats 1 or 2 and doesnt know what its like having to play in the pressure spot of cleanup in a lineup

    am i right?

    now Alex is batting 4 or 5 in a lineup full of protection and cant put up the numbers he shoudl be putting up, I cant blame Deerek for not being cool with him anymore but as captain, i agree, he has an obligation to do more even if it is simply just a comment or two in teh papers like he did for Jason...who is likely less deserving of the support than Alex is

    the relationship is fractured, they need to trade him now and he is tradeable as there will be teams dying for his bat and may even move him back to SS which would ease his fielding issues as well, the man does make 25mill but remember that Texas still pays 7 of that annually, someone will pay him 18 to do what he does, maybe teh Yanks even lower that number by picking up another 3 mill making the new team only responsible for 15....who knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauliec
    are you comparing ARod playing for the Yankees to Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier in Major League Baseball? wow.
    No of course not. I am comparing how one captain treated a player who was looked on as being unpopular by some (because of his race) and how another captain treated a different player who was unpopular with their fans (for complicated reasons).

    I agree with Ham's post. If you're the captain you are the captain of the WHOLE team and you have to suck it up for what's best for the team.

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    I don't know where the truth lies but one thing is certain. For the good of the Yankees and being the captain and the leader, Jeeter should have place his personal feeling aside and embraced ARod. Just maybe the Yanks wouldn't have been in this ugly predicament they are now facing. The chemistry on this team is now and forever fractured until someone takes the ball by the chain and gets this team together.

  12. #12
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    First, Yankee haters need not comment on this issue. You hate the Yanks and, thus, hate Mr. Yankee, so your opinions have as much worth as a Jack-o-Latern on November 1st. Yankee fans aren't commenting on the dynamic of the Mets clubhouse so what basis do you on the Yankee clubhouse?

    Anyway, when you have guys like Curt Schilling and Big Papi saying that the Sawx wouldn't have won the world series if ARod was on the team, then there is a serious issue with this guy.

    Seriously, why does ARod have to be treated like he is competing in the special olympics or is a 14 year old pregnant girl?

    It's absolutely ridiculous. He is a grown man, right? He's the highest paid player in the history of the sport and his agent projected he would hit over 800 homers. Plus, you know why he got $252 million deal right? Because he wanted to double Kevin Garnett's $126 million deal. There is an issue with this guy.

    Plus, for his CAREER, he is 4-26 with men in scoring position in the postseason and 0-16 with men in scoring position and two outs. When he was failing in big spots with Seattle, were you Yankee haters blaming Edgar Martinez?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SMC
    First, Yankee haters need not comment on this issue. You hate the Yanks and, thus, hate Mr. Yankee, so your opinions have as much worth as a Jack-o-Latern on November 1st. Yankee fans aren't commenting on the dynamic of the Mets clubhouse so what basis do you on the Yankee clubhouse?

    Anyway, when you have guys like Curt Schilling and Big Papi saying that the Sawx wouldn't have won the world series if ARod was on the team, then there is a serious issue with this guy.

    Seriously, why does ARod have to be treated like he is competing in the special olympics or is a 14 year old pregnant girl?

    It's absolutely ridiculous. He is a grown man, right? He's the highest paid player in the history of the sport and his agent projected he would hit over 800 homers. Plus, you know why he got $252 million deal right? Because he wanted to double Kevin Garnett's $126 million deal. There is an issue with this guy.

    Plus, for his CAREER, he is 4-26 with men in scoring position in the postseason and 0-16 with men in scoring position and two outs. When he was failing in big spots with Seattle, were you Yankee haters blaming Edgar Martinez?


    I agree, he's got huge issues. To blame Jeter for not reaching out to him like a charity case is bizarre. These guys are grown men, they shouldn't need to have their hands held while crossing the street.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SMC

    Seriously, why does ARod have to be treated like he is competing in the special olympics or is a 14 year old pregnant girl?

    It's absolutely ridiculous. He is a grown man, right?
    Of course you're right SMC, but he is what he is ... mentally he's a marshmallow, so he needs to be coddled ... its like the old saying, some guys respond to a kick in the @$$ and others need a hug

    Being a miltary man I'm sure that makes you wanna vomit, I feel the same way, I wish the guy was much stronger mentally, but he's not ... it is what it is ... he needs to feel liked, otherwise he sulks and his performance drops

    Jeter has to know that, SMC ... its been long enough ... I think everyone knows A-Rod needs to feel accepted and liked ... so the question is, if that's what it takes to get the best out of this guy, is Jeter {as Captain} obligated to make that effort in the best interest of the team he Captains?

    I think he is, which means he's in a tough spot, cause I know he probably wants nothing to do with A-Rod ... but A-Rod is a Yankee, and Jeter is the Captain, so I don't believe he gets that option

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauliec
    eh, I don't buy it. Unless you were physically in the clubhouse, no one knows how Jeter interracted with ARod on a daily basis. Also, if ARod played crappy because Jeter supposedly gave him the cold shoulder, then that doesn't say a lot about ARod's self-esteem as a professional athlete.
    agreed

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Jets & Ham
    Of course you're right SMC, but he is what he is ... mentally he's a marshmallow, so he needs to be coddled ... its like the old saying, some guys respond to a kick in the @$$ and others need a hug

    Being a miltary man I'm sure that makes you wanna vomit, I feel the same way, I wish the guy was much stronger mentally, but he's not ... it is what it is ... he needs to feel liked, otherwise he sulks and his performance drops

    Jeter has to know that, SMC ... its been long enough ... I think everyone knows A-Rod needs to feel accepted and liked ... so the question is, of that's what it takes to get the best out of this guy, is Jeter {as Captain} obligated to make that effort in the best interest of the team he Captains?

    I think he is, which means he's in a tough spot, cause I know he probably wants nothing to do with A-Rod ... but A-Rod is a Yankee, and Jeter is the Captain, so I don't believe he gets that option
    I hear you Ham, but even when he was coddled in Seattle he was a failure in the postseason with men in scoring position. That's the thing. If coddling actually worked and let him perform in big spots, then I would agree. He is batting .153 in the posteason for his CAREER. That failure goes way back.

    The point is, that history has shown that since ARod is a weak man no amount of support from Jeter would have made him strong. On the baseball field he is a coward. No amount of support is going to change that. Therefore, there is no basis to blame Jeter for ARod's baseball cowardice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Jets & Ham


    So here's how I see it, IMO Jeter has two options and he better choose one or he is cheating this baseball team as its Captain, in regards to all that entails ...

    1. Resign as Captain and say you just wanna be a player who does his job on the field

    2. Find it in your heart to forgive A-Rod and make a sincere effort to embrace him


    ...

    When you're Captain of a team, you don't get to pick which players you wish to Captain and which you choose to shun ... you are Captain of the whole team, and if you can't treat it that way, give up the Captaincy
    I could not agree more.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMC
    First, Yankee haters need not comment on this issue. You hate the Yanks and, thus, hate Mr. Yankee, so your opinions have as much worth as a Jack-o-Latern on November 1st. Yankee fans aren't commenting on the dynamic of the Mets clubhouse so what basis do you on the Yankee clubhouse?

    Anyway, when you have guys like Curt Schilling and Big Papi saying that the Sawx wouldn't have won the world series if ARod was on the team, then there is a serious issue with this guy.

    Seriously, why does ARod have to be treated like he is competing in the special olympics or is a 14 year old pregnant girl?

    It's absolutely ridiculous. He is a grown man, right? He's the highest paid player in the history of the sport and his agent projected he would hit over 800 homers. Plus, you know why he got $252 million deal right? Because he wanted to double Kevin Garnett's $126 million deal. There is an issue with this guy.

    Plus, for his CAREER, he is 4-26 with men in scoring position in the postseason and 0-16 with men in scoring position and two outs. When he was failing in big spots with Seattle, were you Yankee haters blaming Edgar Martinez?
    As my post was right before yours. Are you referring to me as a Yankee hater???

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaJet
    As my post was right before yours. Are you referring to me as a Yankee hater???
    No, I wasn't referring to you, just the Met fans out there who like to chime in on the Yanks because of pinstripe envy.

    To address your post directly, I don't think Jeter "embracing" ARod would have done any good. I would like for someone to show me where coddling him has led him to success in big spots in the past. It hasn't.

    It cannot be ignored that he is batting .153 with men in scoring position in the postseason FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER. They coddled him in Seattle and he spit the bit in big spots in the postseason. BEFORE he came to the Yankees he was known as a stats whore who failed in big spots. He is a sports coward. No amount of coddling has given him sports courage.
    Last edited by SMC; 10-09-2006 at 04:45 PM.

  20. #20
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    There might be some truth to the fact that Jeter was unapproachable. And as a captain you want someone who can get in the face (like Paul O'Neill even though he was not he captain) of players and/or be on top of what issues or problems they might be facing in delivering their best on the field. On that apsect Jeter is not perfect. But nobody in this age of sperstar egos is. I think Jeter never has gotten over the quotes Arod made in Esquire magazine.

    But thats not the reason for ARod's failure.He failed to deliver because he is mentally fragile, and his fragility is as bad as they come. No amount of coddling, by anyone could make up for that.

    Joe Torre has tried every trick in the book to make Arod at ease. The "you are doing so good that even you do not know it" & "you are so important to us" & "you are so talented" & " you do not have to hit a home run to help us" approaches Joe Torre tried with Arod the first two seasons have not yielded any positive results as far as clutch hitting go. So you did not hear those coddling platitudes from Joe Torre this season. To add to that this season was the first time I felt his batting skills diminished, and not just in clutch situations. This still could b/c of all the pressure. But it could also be because the rest of the league is catching up on how to pitch to him.

    Bottomline i have seen all this ink on Arod the last couple of seasons & post seasons. Its a major distraction. He might be the most talented hitter of his generation, but if he comes back for yet another season with the Yankees, we are going to go through all the distractions all over again. Thats what i hope we can avoid.

    I personally hope he is traded. Hope being the operative word here. And we get a dominant pitcher for him in return. That might be borderline wishful thinking.

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