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Thread: Open discussion surrounding religion

  1. #1
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    Open discussion surrounding religion

    First off, I want to say that I have enjoyed over these past few months the discussions that have been offered around religion. Most guys know where I stand on this topic.

    I enjoy the debate on this topic, and appreciate the imput guys like NY Mick, PlumberKhan, Klecko who come at this topic differently than I do. I do believe it is possible to prove the existence of God, and I do believe discussions centered around God do not have to centre around religion, but its a long debate to get there. I would really like to open a forum up to get people talking and who can come to the table and listen to other peoples thoughts, struggles, insights, into this debate.

    Again, Armand Nicholi who teaches the course at Harvard called "Does God Exist?' truly believes our entire worldviews are shaped around how we answer this question, and only one can be "right." God cannot both exist and not exist completely. So in his mind it is an important thing to talk about openly and honestly amongst people.

    ONE REQUEST: Guys who do not believe in God, please don't come here and bash those who do without wanting to openly discuss it. And Sackdance, PLEASE don't turn this into a "your going to hell" thing. This is meant to be an open forum where guys can talk about this issue without it resorting to "your going to hell if...." THIS tactic will not work here, so please respect the request I make (as a fellow Christian if nothing else)

    Hope to here from people soon.

  2. #2
    Forgive me, but what is the question being dicsussed? In the topic title you say "Religion", but in the body you seem to imply "the existance of God".

    Could you clarify please?

  3. #3
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    Yeah, maybe I should try this again.

    There is alot of talk about religion on this board, and how it is all man-made/ causes problems etc...

    I guess the first part of the question is the existence of God. How and why are your reasons for either believing or disbelieving, then I guess the next part of the question is what is it about particular religions (or religion in general) that people either agree or disagree about when it comes to the existence of God.

    For example, if you don't believe God exists at all, would you then not think that all religion is pointless. If on the other hand, you don't think God's existence can ever be proven, how then does your opinion of religion affect this?
    Still yet, if you do believe in a God, can all religions be reconciled, or are they hopelessly against one another? If so, how does one determine, or better yet, find the truth about God.

    Does that help? If not, let me know and perhaps I will try and rephrase the entire thing...

    Lets get some imput here!!!! Otherwise, the only time we seem to discuss this stuff is when people are firing replies back to a "BURN IN HELL" thread, and then we discuss things....why not bypass the first part and just come here for a civil conversation?

  4. #4
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    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]ONE REQUEST: Guys who do not believe in God, please don't come here and bash those who do without wanting to openly discuss it. And Sackdance, PLEASE don't turn this into a "your going to hell" thing. This is meant to be an open forum where guys can talk about this issue without it resorting to "your going to hell if...." THIS tactic will not work here, so please respect the request I make (as a fellow Christian if nothing else)[/QUOTE]

    :bangwall:

  5. #5
    i believe in what the Godfather of Soul James Brown tells me

    he says " I know you got Soul, if you didn't you wouldn't be in here"

    that confirms the existance of a human soul

    when he gets excited he says "Good God!" and occasionally "huh!" accompanied by a split

    that confirms the existance of God and his benevolent nature

    any other questions please refer to the prophet

    [IMG]http://www.masslive.com/images/news/blackhistory/james_brown.jpg[/IMG]

  6. #6
    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]I guess the first part of the question is the existence of God. How and why are your reasons for either believing or disbelieving[/QUOTE]

    I neither believe, nor disbelieve. The evidence I have seen to-date does not prove there is a God, and we all know it is impossible to prove a negative, to disprove something exists, especially soemthing that (in almost al faiths) is viewed as supreme and above the rules of man. So I try to keep an open mind on the concept of a creator/supreme being/supernatural force/etc.

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]then I guess the next part of the question is what is it about particular religions (or religion in general) that people either agree or disagree about when it comes to the existence of God.[/QUOTE]

    I disagree with all relgions. Faith in a greater being is somewhat illogical without any proof, but it's fine on it's own. But it's when mankind join together to form a club/cult, to tell others how THEIR being is the real one, and that all others are false, and worse, false believers must convert or die, convert of be descriminated against, convert or face whatever. Convert (or not), but the LAW must be written to suit OUR Being and his rules, logical or not, rightious or not, fair or not, good for all or not. Then its an issue. Faith is fine whenpracticed alone, in private and without affecting others. Religion, by it's nature, is not fine.

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]For example, if you don't believe God exists at all, would you then not think that all religion is pointless. If on the other hand, you don't think God's existence can ever be proven, how then does your opinion of religion affect this?[/QUOTE]

    Not really. God could "not exist" and Religions still serve a purpose. In this case, the purpose is purely one of control, and/or one of comfort. Control of a population, or comfort toa population who does not understand some thing, the meaning of some thing, etc. While you may not like this purpose, it is shown that religion has been used that way many times throughout history.

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Still yet, if you do believe in a God, can all religions be reconciled, or are they hopelessly against one another? If so, how does one determine, or better yet, find the truth about God.[/QUOTE]

    Religions can never be "reconciled" as part of their purpose is to say "Mine is the right one" As such, the can never truly reconcile without forsaking the tenents of the faith they claim to be. A Catholic can never completelty reconcile with a Muslim, as Allah and God, while 99.9% similar in theory, are still different. And only one (in the eyes of religion) can be the "right" one.

  7. #7
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    Whether you are a believer or non-believer this link will show you a few real life debates that you will probably enjoy.

    [url]http://www.wayofthemaster.com/watchwitnessing.shtml[/url]

  8. #8
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    [QUOTE=sackdance99]Whether you are a believer or non-believer this link will show you a few real life debates that you will probably enjoy.

    [url]http://www.wayofthemaster.com/watchwitnessing.shtml[/url][/QUOTE]


    Wow, Kirk Cameron is a big time Christian, huh?

    Canada - great topic. I track closest with Fisher here on this one, but with a few important distinctions. So busy, otherwise I'd post more now. I owe you and doggin long, thoughtful posts. They may take a while, but I'll get them to you!

  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Wow, Kirk Cameron is a big time Christian, huh?

    Canada - great topic. I track closest with Fisher here on this one, but with a few important distinctions. So busy, otherwise I'd post more now. I owe you and doggin long, thoughtful posts. They may take a while, but I'll get them to you![/QUOTE]


    Sounds good....I hope this one continues...

  10. #10
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    [QUOTE=Warfish][B]I neither believe, nor disbelieve. The evidence I have seen to-date does not prove there is a God, and we all know it is impossible to prove a negative, to disprove something exists, especially soemthing that (in almost al faiths) is viewed as supreme and above the rules of man. So I try to keep an open mind on the concept of a creator/supreme being/supernatural force/etc.[/B]

    Do you not think that some of the scientific discoveries and some of the oldest arguments used in philosophy could lead to a logical conclusion that a God can exist? Law does not use empircal science to convict people, it relies on a variety of means including the testimony of witnesses. Would you agree that a logical conclusion can be made outside of the empirical?



    [B]Not really. God could "not exist" and Religions still serve a purpose. In this case, the purpose is purely one of control, and/or one of comfort. Control of a population, or comfort toa population who does not understand some thing, the meaning of some thing, etc. While you may not like this purpose, it is shown that religion has been used that way many times throughout history.[/B]

    I don't see how this works. If God does not exist, and religions base there beliefs on him existing, wouldn't it be meaningless to worship something that doesn't exist? Would it not be better to know the truth and accept it?



    [B]Religions can never be "reconciled" as part of their purpose is to say "Mine is the right one" As such, the can never truly reconcile without forsaking the tenents of the faith they claim to be. A Catholic can never completelty reconcile with a Muslim, as Allah and God, while 99.9% similar in theory, are still different. And only one (in the eyes of religion) can be the "right" one.[/B][/QUOTE]

    I agree whole-heartedly with this, and think this is one of the biggest mistakes we are making in our current society. This whole concept of tolerance of others, especially centered around religious faith, will not work. You can't reconcile a faith such as Islam with Christianity, nor for Buddhism for that matter. These three are completely opposed in some core beliefs. How than can we say that all religion worships the same thing? If you know enough about the basics, it is easy to see this is just not the case.

  11. #11
    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]I agree whole-heartedly with this, and think this is one of the biggest mistakes we are making in our current society. This whole concept of tolerance of others, especially centered around religious faith, will not work. You can't reconcile a faith such as Islam with Christianity, nor for Buddhism for that matter. These three are completely opposed in some core beliefs. How than can we say that all religion worships the same thing? If you know enough about the basics, it is easy to see this is just not the case.[/QUOTE]Followers of true Islam believe that both Christians and Jews will find a place in "paradise" because all three believe in the same G-d, the G-d of Abraham.

    Most Christian denominations have respect and tolerance for people of other faiths.

    Judaism preaches tolerance of other faiths.

    I think the central problem lies in humanity itself and a basic human need to be right.

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=Klecko73isGod]Followers of true Islam believe that both Christians and Jews will find a place in "paradise" because all three believe in the same G-d, the G-d of Abraham.


    [B]However, they do not accept the deity claims of Christ.[/B]

    Most Christian denominations have respect and tolerance for people of other faiths.

    Judaism preaches tolerance of other faiths.

    [B][/B]

    I think the central problem lies in humanity itself and a basic human need to be right.[/QUOTE]


    I guess what I mean by tolerance is this. Coming from the Christian faith, I can accept someone for who they are, whether black, white, green, Islam, Jew, Aboriginal....doest't matter. However, when someone starts talking about God, I think a true Christian will stand with the truth of Christ and not mince words in the name of tolerance. For instance, if I'm talking with a Buddhist and he tells me there is no god, I don't think "in the name of tolerance," do I just let that conversation go without enquiring as to why he thinks this and sharing the possibility of why there could be a God....
    Does that make sense?

  13. #13
    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]I guess what I mean by tolerance is this. Coming from the Christian faith, I can accept someone for who they are, whether black, white, green, Islam, Jew, Aboriginal....doest't matter. However, when someone starts talking about God, I think a true Christian will stand with the truth of Christ and not mince words in the name of tolerance. For instance, if I'm talking with a Buddhist and he tells me there is no god, I don't think "in the name of tolerance," do I just let that conversation go without enquiring as to why he thinks this and sharing the possibility of why there could be a God....
    Does that make sense?[/QUOTE]I think there are ways to disagree without being intolerant.

    Listening to others and what they have to say is always useful because it may lead you to a greater understanding of your own faith.

  14. #14
    I firmly believe there is a G-d, I believe him to be Yesua. I also believe the Jews are our brothers in faith. I will also state that I will not tolerate people who use G-d to preach hatred against a person or persons for what they believe or don't believe. I am here to be judged not to judge!

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    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]I guess what I mean by tolerance is this. Coming from the Christian faith, I can accept someone for who they are, whether black, white, green, Islam, Jew, Aboriginal....doest't matter. However, when someone starts talking about God, I think a true Christian will stand with the truth of Christ and not mince words in the name of tolerance. For instance, if I'm talking with a Buddhist and he tells me there is no god, I don't think "in the name of tolerance," do I just let that conversation go without enquiring as to why he thinks this and sharing the possibility of why there could be a God....
    Does that make sense?[/QUOTE]

    Amen!! Then you give him the gospel and make him very uncomfortable when he attempts to sleep that night. As a Christian we cannot apologize for the truth nor can we hold back just to make someone feel warm and fuzzy inside because then we are in trouble with God.

    [IMG]http://www.chicagosnapshot.com/cs/archives/jacksonharbor/092804_jackson002.jpg[/IMG]

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    [QUOTE=MnJetFan]I firmly believe there is a G-d, I believe him to be Yesua. I also believe the Jews are our brothers in faith. I will also state that I will not tolerate people who use G-d to preach hatred against a person or persons for what they believe or don't believe. I am here to be judged not to judge![/QUOTE]


    Well said....Who are we to judge others when we fail God in so many ways ourselves?

  17. #17
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    [QUOTE=Klecko73isGod]I think there are ways to disagree without being intolerant.

    Listening to others and what they have to say is always useful because it may lead you to a greater understanding of your own faith.[/QUOTE]


    True...I think we agree on this, it was just the difference in how it was expressed. I also have found that by listening to other people discuss their faith in "religion" has led to a stronger conviction about what religion is, and a conviction that following Christ is NOT got anything to do with follow the "religion" of Christianity.....(hope that makes sense)

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    [QUOTE=MnJetFan]I firmly believe there is a G-d, I believe him to be Yesua. I also believe the Jews are our brothers in faith. I will also state that I will not tolerate people who use G-d to preach hatred against a person or persons for what they believe or don't believe. I am here to be judged not to judge![/QUOTE]


    Here is a great quote from the book that many Christians need to take to heart:
    "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside....
    I Cor 5:12-13

  19. #19
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    [I]"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

    "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

    "The King will reply, [B]'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'[/B] [/I]


    When so-called compassionate conservatives start caring about the same things that Jesus cared about...I'll start taking them seriously. Until then, they are the harlot riding on the back of the beast.

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan][I]"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

    "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

    "The King will reply, [B]'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'[/B] [/I]


    When so-called compassionate conservatives start caring about the same things that Jesus cared about...I'll start taking them seriously. Until then, they are the harlot riding on the back of the beast.[/QUOTE]

    My point exactly when what I mentioned in an earlier post. I am beginning to see and to firmly believe that Christ and the religion of Christianity are in many ways mutually exclusive. If we believe this Christ guy existed, study what was said about him, and look at the teachings of his Apostles, it is a far cry from many of the things done and said in the name of Christ. IF we were to truly study and apply his teachings, this world, I believe, would look alot like the place most people would want to live in....

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