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Thread: Why should I go to hell if I am a sincere person?

  1. #1
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    Why should I go to hell if I am a sincere person?

    This is a common question I am asked on the streets and boardwalks of the Jersey Shore. I will answer it here because it seems this is a major hang-up with most people and I completely understand how it can be. I do not want my fellow JI's pondering this question with confusion any longer.

    Being sincere is not the way to have your sins forgiven. If it were, then Jesus didn't need to die on the cross. But He did die, so being sincere isn't good enough. Besides, if someone appeals to their own sincerity as a worthy effort before God, then they are appealing to their own character as a means to satisfy an infinite and holy God. But this is impossible, first because we can never satisfy an infinite and holy God based on our finite sin-stained efforts and second, because to make such an appeal is really an appeal to pride since it is an appeal to something good in ourselves. The problem is, that we are all touched by sin and as the Bible says, "no one does good," (Rom. 3:12).

    Unfortunately, people erringly think that because they claim to have a good and sincere heart, that that is good enough for them to escape God's judgment. But this is a misplaced appeal since it is based on feelings, and not biblical revelation. Furthermore, someone can be sincere but be very wrong in what they believe. Since we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1), we must believe in the true God since faith in something false is useless. It doesn't matter how sincere you are because sincere belief or faith in something false can't help you. People are sincerely wrong all the time. Does anyone expect God to overlook the necessity of the sacrifice of His Son based on someone saying on judgment day, "But God, I was sincere." No, it won't happen.

    So if someone is sincere yet believes in a false God like the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses, will they get to go to heaven? No. They won't. They will go to hell. This is why it is so imperative that we preach the truth of God's word to everyone.

    Hell was originally created for Satan and his angels. In the future it will contain those who join Satan in rejecting God. If you reject God's provision for the forgiveness of your sins, then you will join the Devil who rejected God from the beginning. Is that what you want?

    Could you believe in a God who would become a human, suffer at the hands of humans, and be killed by them, all so that His death could be the payment for their sins? That is extremely loving. God is saving people who deserve to go to Hell - and we all deserve that. Remember that the same God that sends people to Hell also died for them. If they reject what God has provided, then what is God left to do? He would have to judge them.

    Whether you believe in something or not does not change the fact of its existence. Jesus spoke often of Hell (Matt. 25:41-46; Mark 9:47-48; Luke 16:19-31), and warned us so we would not go there. Would you say Jesus didn't know what He was talking about?

    If you are implying that it is unjust for God to send people to Hell then you accuse God of injustice. Sin is wrong and it must be punished. What would you have God do to those who oppose Him and do evil? Do you want Him to ignore that which is wrong? Do you want Him to turn His head and not be holy and righteous?

    Many are creating a God in their minds that does not exist. There is only one. The God of the bible.

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    I wonder if John Ritter is burning in lakes of fire at this moment......how about Mr. Roper???

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    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY]I wonder if John Ritter is burning in lakes of fire at this moment......how about Mr. Roper???[/QUOTE]

    I sure hope not, but it's possible.

    PS- That was a good one.

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    what sort of God creates a creature prone to sinning, forbids it to sin and then punishes the fallen with eternal damnation?

    And when i say eternal i mean blinding torture 24/7 for the rest of time.

    oh but he loves us... yeah right

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    here's another brain buster:

    if God is omniscient - all knowing - then that means logically he knows what's going to happen - that's everything that ever will be and everything that ever was

    so... why bother with this whole cherade of existance?

    when you are omnipotent, infallible and omniscient , there is no struggle - there can be no doubt - you can't lose, you can only win.

    it's like knowing the final score of a football game yet choosing to not just watch it but create both sides and revel in their struggles.

    so we are left at a crossroads - either God doesn't have as much control as we think He does, or He is just toying with us.

    Why should anyone worry? If you are going to heaven it was pre-disposed that way. I think sackdance is full of crap hence i must be pre-disposed to Hell. Why should I care or fight it? After all God made me this way - just like he made Saddam Hussain or Osama Bin Ladin to be the way they are.
    Last edited by bitonti; 10-17-2006 at 02:07 PM.

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    I got another one

    according to the New Testiment you must be saved by the blood of Christ to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven

    before this point works and deeds got you in, i.e. the covenant of the Old Testiment

    so... what if you were born in let's say Central America in the year 2000 BC?

    Logically you were not born a member of the chosen people and their ways so you had no shot of salvation from the word go. You were born damned. Free will doesn't factor into the equation.

    Is that fair? is God really going to create millions of pre-christ people just for the purpose of instantly and permanently damning them for all eternity to torture and pain?

    Doesn't seem fair to me. A benevolent God should give everyone a shot, no?

  7. #7
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    What is the big deal about Jesus dying for us? He had a guaranteed return gig booked for three days later. :rolleyes:

  8. #8
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    It would seem to me that the the opposite of eternal life in heaven is not eternal life in hell, but death.

    Perhaps heaven is not a place but a state of spirituality and hell is death.

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    [QUOTE=dmaynard]What is the big deal about Jesus dying for us? He had a guaranteed return gig booked for three days later. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    Actually, this is a very interesting avenue of thought......

    --Is it truly a "sacrifice", if Jesus WAS the Son of God, and also God (as the idea of the Holy Trinity would imply) then he knew in advance that he would be killed, would rise on the third day from the dead, and would thereafter be God (or a part of God), an all-powerful, all-knowing entity. Personally, you can torture and kill me if afterwards I get to be God everlasting.

    --How do WE know he suffered at all? After all, he IS God, right? While it may have appeared to us that he was suffering, is it beyond logic to think that God could simply ACT as if the torments hurt him, while actually feeling nothing, no pain at all? And in fact, if he is truly God, then wouldn't he always feel as God feels if he wished it? And if he is God, wouldn't the relatively minor tortures mankind can inflict be insignifigant to God?

    --Is it really a Sacrifice if God consciouly PUT jesus in that position, and also put all of the players in this story there as well? Man is God's creation, and while we have free will, we are also pawns in God's great plan (after all, he knows everthying that will happen for all eternity, right?). So if God put his Son (who is also God) in that position, and put all the Human beings there too (as part of his plan) is that really a "sacrifice" as is said? Or is it simply following through on a plan He Himself created and orchestrated, in whcih the supposed "sacrifice" is not gone or destoryed in any way, but instead rises to Heaven and gets to BE God everlasting?

    A very interesting avenue of thought indeed.......

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    [QUOTE=Warfish]Actually, this is a very interesting avenue of thought......

    ~

    --Is it really a Sacrifice if God consciouly PUT jesus in that position, and also put all of the players in this story there as well? Man is God's creation, and while we have free will, we are also pawns in God's great plan (after all, he knows everthying that will happen for all eternity, right?). [B]So if God put his Son (who is also God) in that position, and put all the Human beings there too (as part of his plan) is that really a "sacrifice" as is said?[/B]



    Or is it simply following through on a plan He Himself created and orchestrated, in whcih the supposed "sacrifice" is not gone or destoryed in any way, but [B]instead rises to Heaven and gets to BE God everlasting[/B]?

    A very interesting avenue of thought indeed.......[/QUOTE]
    Warfish is back! Deep shot to left...going...going..it's outa here!

    A really interesting POV.

  11. #11
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    [QUOTE=bitonti]what sort of God creates a creature prone to sinning, forbids it to sin and then punishes the fallen with eternal damnation?

    And when i say eternal i mean blinding torture 24/7 for the rest of time.

    oh but he loves us... yeah right[/QUOTE]

    Where were you during catechism time...behind the door?

    Gd created man IN HIS IMAGE...but not a clone of perfection
    Man was tempted by sin....and took/takes the bait every second of the day
    Those who do wrong do so knowingly....no?
    Those who do wrong should be punished..right?

    if you cant do the time dont do the crime

    youd prefer to live in an anarchic world of your making, with
    selective moral relativism of one kind no better or worse than anothers

    put in football terms, which you have a much better grasp of-you got the rulebook-if you dont like the rules or the referees appeal to the commissioner or find another league to root for

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet]

    Gd created man IN HIS IMAGE...[/QUOTE]

    Close, but you mixed up God and man.

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    [QUOTE=sackdance99]This is a common question I am asked on the streets and boardwalks of the Jersey Shore. I will answer it here because it seems this is a major hang-up with most people and I completely understand how it can be. I do not want my fellow JI's pondering this question with confusion any longer.

    Being sincere is not the way to have your sins forgiven. If it were, then Jesus didn't need to die on the cross. But He did die, so being sincere isn't good enough. Besides, if someone appeals to their own sincerity as a worthy effort before God, then they are appealing to their own character as a means to satisfy an infinite and holy God. But this is impossible, first because we can never satisfy an infinite and holy God based on our finite sin-stained efforts and second, because to make such an appeal is really an appeal to pride since it is an appeal to something good in ourselves. The problem is, that we are all touched by sin and as the Bible says, "no one does good," (Rom. 3:12).

    Unfortunately, people erringly think that because they claim to have a good and sincere heart, that that is good enough for them to escape God's judgment. But this is a misplaced appeal since it is based on feelings, and not biblical revelation. Furthermore, someone can be sincere but be very wrong in what they believe. Since we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1), we must believe in the true God since faith in something false is useless. It doesn't matter how sincere you are because sincere belief or faith in something false can't help you. People are sincerely wrong all the time. Does anyone expect God to overlook the necessity of the sacrifice of His Son based on someone saying on judgment day, "But God, I was sincere." No, it won't happen.

    So if someone is sincere yet believes in a false God like the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses, will they get to go to heaven? No. They won't. They will go to hell. This is why it is so imperative that we preach the truth of God's word to everyone.

    Hell was originally created for Satan and his angels. In the future it will contain those who join Satan in rejecting God. If you reject God's provision for the forgiveness of your sins, then you will join the Devil who rejected God from the beginning. Is that what you want?

    Could you believe in a God who would become a human, suffer at the hands of humans, and be killed by them, all so that His death could be the payment for their sins? That is extremely loving. God is saving people who deserve to go to Hell - and we all deserve that. Remember that the same God that sends people to Hell also died for them. If they reject what God has provided, then what is God left to do? He would have to judge them.

    Whether you believe in something or not does not change the fact of its existence. Jesus spoke often of Hell (Matt. 25:41-46; Mark 9:47-48; Luke 16:19-31), and warned us so we would not go there. Would you say Jesus didn't know what He was talking about?

    If you are implying that it is unjust for God to send people to Hell then you accuse God of injustice. Sin is wrong and it must be punished. What would you have God do to those who oppose Him and do evil? Do you want Him to ignore that which is wrong? Do you want Him to turn His head and not be holy and righteous?

    Many are creating a God in their minds that does not exist. There is only one. The God of the bible.[/QUOTE]
    hey sd, am i going to hell??

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    [QUOTE=Warfish]Actually, this is a very interesting avenue of thought......

    --Is it truly a "sacrifice", if Jesus WAS the Son of God, and also God (as the idea of the Holy Trinity would imply) then he knew in advance that he would be killed, would rise on the third day from the dead, and would thereafter be God (or a part of God), an all-powerful, all-knowing entity. Personally, you can torture and kill me if afterwards I get to be God everlasting.

    --[B]How do WE know he suffered at all? After all, he IS God, right? [/B]While it may have appeared to us that he was suffering, is it beyond logic to think that God could simply ACT as if the torments hurt him, while actually feeling nothing, no pain at all? And in fact, if he is truly God, then wouldn't he always feel as God feels if he wished it? And if he is God, wouldn't the relatively minor tortures mankind can inflict be insignifigant to God?

    --Is it really a Sacrifice if God consciouly PUT jesus in that position, and also put all of the players in this story there as well? Man is God's creation, and while we have free will, we are also pawns in God's great plan (after all, he knows everthying that will happen for all eternity, right?). [B] So if God put his Son (who is also God) in that position, and put all the Human beings there too (as part of his plan) is that really a "sacrifice" as is said? Or is it simply following through on a plan He Himself created and orchestrated, in whcih the supposed "sacrifice" is not gone or destoryed in any way, but instead rises to Heaven and gets to BE God everlasting?[/B]

    A very interesting avenue of thought indeed.......[/QUOTE]

    1st highlight: Because he was fully human as well. Anyone flogged and hung on a cross would tell you it is not a pleasant way to die.

    2nd highlight: One of the interesting things about Christianity is the paradoxical nature of Christ. Freewill is one of the most interesting concepts. While we have free will to choose, God is omnipotent and knows the choices we will make. Makes sense since God is outside of time, he can know everything at all times (in our understanding of time). Yet if we did not have the choice to make each decision freely, we would be nothing more than robots doing what robots do: follow what they are programmed to do. If God is the very essence of love, he would have to give his creation free will. So in a sense, God does give up some of his power. A man can choose to fire the gun, attack the woman, hit his child, go to war etc etc....If God was to interfere every time man was to make a wrong choice, would he indeed then have free will? I would say no. This is a common issue many have with a belief in God. HOw could God allow such things to happen. The answer is just that: if man does not have free will to choose between right and wrong, then he is just a robot programmed to do whatever God tells him.

    While God WANTS us to choose good, we have the power (and the knowledge) to choose evil....

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    [QUOTE=OrangeJet]Close, but you mixed up God and man.[/QUOTE]


    That was original....

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=bitonti]what sort of God creates a creature prone to sinning, forbids it to sin and then punishes the fallen with eternal damnation?

    And when i say eternal i mean blinding torture 24/7 for the rest of time.

    oh but he loves us... yeah right[/QUOTE]


    Quite a simple answer really Bitonti...God cannot create something that is greater than himself, or he would not be God. God cannot also create something his equal. Want evidence: check science. When genes are mixed, they don't improve, there is a degradation of sort. Easier example, when you copy something the reproduction is always less quality than the original. Knowing this, God had to put into play a plan to reconcile his creation with him, for he would have known that this was going to happen. It could not not have happened.

    He does not punish the fallen with eternal damnation. If people choose to live their lives separate from God, God gives them what they choose. Does he want this? No...he wants us all to reconcile with him. But alas, we have free choice. We can choose to ignore God. If we want to live our lives that way, God gives us eternity that way.

    I say this next statement not in jest, but out of concern. Many of you guys who criticize and condemn what we talk about here, yet you seem to have an understanding of the topic from a point of view of "this is what I've heard about this topic." If you were to read the bible, you would get alot of these answers, and many of the things you critique you would be amazed to find out how far off the answers you are.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]I got another one

    according to the New Testiment you must be saved by the blood of Christ to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven

    before this point works and deeds got you in, i.e. the covenant of the Old Testiment

    so... what if you were born in let's say Central America in the year 2000 BC?

    Logically you were not born a member of the chosen people and their ways so you had no shot of salvation from the word go. You were born damned. Free will doesn't factor into the equation.

    Is that fair? is God really going to create millions of pre-christ people just for the purpose of instantly and permanently damning them for all eternity to torture and pain?

    Doesn't seem fair to me. A benevolent God should give everyone a shot, no?[/QUOTE]

    Easy answer for this one too. First off, the "chosen" people came long after most of what we are talking about. The chosen people did not come into play until after the ark, so many people were before this.

    This argument is not new. It is used today in the sense that people mention "what if you were born in some remote tribe in Africa and never heard of Christ your whole life? Does this mean you are doomed to spend eternity in hell?' The answer is not one many people like to here. First off, anybody that tells you there is an answer is lying. It never explains how these people can be reconciled with God. It does mention however, that there are just things that people don't know, and will not know. This is where an act of faith comes in.

    What does this mean? Simply this. Don't worry about the tribes in Africa or Central American children in 2000 BC. God will manage getting the truth to them. The main factor is if you have heard of Christ, if you understand the basic concept of who he says he was, and you have heard what he has said....what are you going to do with it? He doesn't leave a middle ground. Either you believe he was who he says he was, or you don't.

  18. #18
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    [QUOTE=bitonti]here's another brain buster:

    if God is omniscient - all knowing - then that means logically he knows what's going to happen - that's everything that ever will be and everything that ever was

    so... why bother with this whole cherade of existance?

    when you are omnipotent, infallible and omniscient , there is no struggle - there can be no doubt - you can't lose, you can only win.

    it's like knowing the final score of a football game yet choosing to not just watch it but create both sides and revel in their struggles.

    so we are left at a crossroads - either God doesn't have as much control as we think He does, or He is just toying with us.

    Why should anyone worry? If you are going to heaven it was pre-disposed that way. I think sackdance is full of crap hence i must be pre-disposed to Hell. Why should I care or fight it? After all God made me this way - just like he made Saddam Hussain or Osama Bin Ladin to be the way they are.[/QUOTE]

    Can answer this one for you too Matt. Is God all you say he is? Yup...does he win in the end? Yup....
    Why does it matter? Free will...If God created a universe full of beings that could do nothing but love him because he made them that way, what fun would that be, and is it truly love?

    I don't know if you have kids, but would you want them to love you because they chose to (even though they have a healthy fear of who you are), or would you want them terrorized into a choice that isn't really an option?

    In a sense, God doesn't have control about our choices, otherwise we would not be able to choose them...COuld he have the choice? Yes, he's God. But he CHOOSES to give us free will and freely choose whether to follow him. Christ is a man who came to earth to try and help us understand this...and he happened to be God incarnate.

    Maybe this will help. This is a silly story that helped me understand who God was. Lets say you were designing your backyard. You had this master plan you wanted to accomplish, but living in the backyard were millions of ants. You could just go ahead with your plan, but it would kill most of them. You don't want this, but you can't tell them anything because they can't understand (or probably comprehend you). You can't physically move them because many will perish. What do you do?

    How about send a messanger in the form of an ant who can tell the ants all about this plan so none of them will get injured and "the plan" can succeed.
    Jesus is that ant...I know its childish, but it really helped me get it when I was younger.... :O

  19. #19
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    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]1st highlight: Because he was fully human as well. Anyone flogged and hung on a cross would tell you it is not a pleasant way to die.

    2nd highlight: One of the interesting things about Christianity is the paradoxical nature of Christ. Freewill is one of the most interesting concepts. While we have free will to choose, God is omnipotent and knows the choices we will make. Makes sense since God is outside of time, he can know everything at all times (in our understanding of time). Yet if we did not have the choice to make each decision freely, we would be nothing more than robots doing what robots do: follow what they are programmed to do. If God is the very essence of love, he would have to give his creation free will. So in a sense, God does give up some of his power. A man can choose to fire the gun, attack the woman, hit his child, go to war etc etc....If God was to interfere every time man was to make a wrong choice, would he indeed then have free will? I would say no. This is a common issue many have with a belief in God. HOw could God allow such things to happen. The answer is just that: if man does not have free will to choose between right and wrong, then he is just a robot programmed to do whatever God tells him.

    While God WANTS us to choose good, we have the power (and the knowledge) to choose evil....[/QUOTE]

    For #1: And as I said, you can torture me all you like, if afterward I get to be God. Sacrifice implies a loss, a destruction of soemthing. Jesus was not "sacrificed", he was temporarily wayliad by the "relatively" minor inconveniences man could inflict upon a Human-as-God, before he got to be "promoted" back into Heaven as God, All Pwoerful Everlasting. Like I said, sign me up for that deal any day, not a lot of real sacrificing there. And again, how can we mere mortals KNOW he felt anything...he is still God, even if he was God-as-Human-form, it was well within his Godly powers to not feel the lash, and yet make us think he did. He is God afterall.

    For #2: Free will is all well and good, but God IS all-knowing, of all things at all times. I.e. Omnipotent. Hence, he KNEW IN ADVANCE what every human involved would do before it was done. In effect, God KNEW The outcome before it happened, knew what each man would do, knew his Son would be tortured and killed and knew he would rise and become part of the God Trifecta. As such, I fail to see the "sacrifice" here. Nothing was given, nothing was lost, nothing was uncertain, nothing was not set up and arranges specifily by God, and nothign happened the way he didn't want it to. Allowing you Son-God to be tortured for what, to a God must be a milisecond or less, before he can be God is hardly a sacrifice.

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=Warfish]For #1: And as I said, you can torture me all you like, if afterward I get to be God. Sacrifice implies a loss, a destruction of soemthing. Jesus was not "sacrificed", he was temporarily wayliad by the "relatively" minor inconveniences man could inflict upon a Human-as-God, before he got to be "promoted" back into Heaven as God, All Pwoerful Everlasting. Like I said, sign me up for that deal any day, not a lot of real sacrificing there. And again, how can we mere mortals KNOW he felt anything...he is still God, even if he was God-as-Human-form, it was well within his Godly powers to not feel the lash, and yet make us think he did. He is God afterall.

    For #2: Free will is all well and good, but God IS all-knowing, of all things at all times. I.e. Omnipotent. Hence, he KNEW IN ADVANCE what every human involved would do before it was done. In effect, God KNEW The outcome before it happened, knew what each man would do, knew his Son would be tortured and killed and knew he would rise and become part of the God Trifecta. As such, I fail to see the "sacrifice" here. Nothing was given, nothing was lost, nothing was uncertain, nothing was not set up and arranges specifily by God, and nothign happened the way he didn't want it to. Allowing you Son-God to be tortured for what, to a God must be a milisecond or less, before he can be God is hardly a sacrifice.[/QUOTE]Outstanding post Fish!!!!

    I think SD99's brain is gonna explode when he reads this.

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