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Thread: Dow hits 12,000! Those damn Bush tax cuts!

  1. #1
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    Dow hits 12,000! Those damn Bush tax cuts!

    Yes, tax cuts just don't help the economy...

    Now that the stock market, under Bush has eclipsed the market under zippy, AND has a lower unemployment rate and a better job creation rate, will you libs conceed that maybe your mantra of raising taxes doesn't work?

    I'm sure you'll insert your moreon.org talking points, but it doesn't matter. Once again the left is proven wrong. Once again, fact renders your spin pointless!

  2. #2
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    We experienced the greatest growth of the US economyu during Clinton years..
    So by your logic, you have to admit CLINTON was your daddy.

  3. #3
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    I just asked my buddy, who is a E-3, how has the stock market improved his situation in Iraq.




    [QUOTE=Spirit of Weeb]Yes, tax cuts just don't help the economy...

    Now that the stock market, under Bush has eclipsed the market under zippy, AND has a lower unemployment rate and a better job creation rate, will you libs conceed that maybe your mantra of raising taxes doesn't work?

    I'm sure you'll insert your moreon.org talking points, but it doesn't matter. Once again the left is proven wrong. Once again, fact renders your spin pointless![/QUOTE]

  4. #4
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    it's a global market place and the NYSE has mostly world wide corporations listed

    in other words it's crazy to assume that Bush tax cuts directly led to this market

  5. #5
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    [QUOTE=bman]We experienced the greatest growth of the US economyu during Clinton years..
    So by your logic, you have to admit CLINTON was your daddy.[/QUOTE]
    That isn't the only thing that grew during the Clinton years!

  6. #6
    flushingjet
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    [QUOTE=bitonti]it's a global market place and the NYSE has mostly world wide corporations listed

    in other words it's crazy to assume that Bush tax cuts directly led to this market[/QUOTE]

    so it was all foreign investment then?
    *chuckle*

    another great economic summary , thanks

    do us a favor and pick some stocks for us all you think will skyrocket-we'll
    sell short

  7. #7
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    OK

    Where to begin

    -The Dow hit a nominal all time high but is no near its high adjusted for inflation....the Nasdaq and S&P500 are no where near the high

    - "the greatest growth of the US economyu during Clinton years" is wrong no matter how you cut it, nominal terms, real term...nor should it ever be.

    If you are referring to major stock indicies experience their greatest growth, the Clinton administration should be taken to task. I don't ever remember hearing from any financial officials about warning about the speculative bubble, in fact I only remember cheer leading. Any valuation measure used showed how incredibly stupid valuations were..... but this isn't unique to the Clinton Administration, you find the same though out history

    Anytime you hear " This time its different" watch out

    - The Dow Industrial average has 30 stocks in it, I'm not sure what your point is Bit

    - Also, I don't believe the tax cuts directly lead to anything, but are part of the equation that led to these gains

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    [QUOTE=Lawyers, Guns and Money]
    - The Dow Industrial average has 30 stocks in it, I'm not sure what your point is Bit[/quote]

    my point is that institutional investors drive the marketplace - and it's a global marketplace - huge securities firms are not directly affected by the Bush tax cuts for rich individuals. They are affected in the sense that the entire economic health of the nation is affected but to make the jump that Bush created this high in the dow is specious and you seem to agree with this quote.

    [QUOTE=Lawyers, Guns and Money]

    - Also, I don't believe the tax cuts directly lead to anything, but are part of the equation that led to these gains[/QUOTE]

  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=bitonti]my point is that institutional investors drive the marketplace - and it's a global marketplace -[/QUOTE]
    Is that something new?

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]my point is that institutional investors drive the marketplace - and it's a global marketplace - huge securities firms are not directly affected by the Bush tax cuts for rich individuals. They are affected in the sense that the entire economic health of the nation is affected but to make the jump that Bush created this high in the dow is specious and you seem to agree with this quote.[/QUOTE]


    Bit

    Ceritius Parabus, I think it is fair to say that the major average would be lower, probably by a significant amount, if the tax cuts did not happen

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    [QUOTE=Lawyers, Guns and Money]Bit

    Ceritius Parabus, I think it is fair to say that the major average would be lower, probably by a significant amount, if the tax cuts did not happen[/QUOTE]

    making a claim like that is akin to saying a butterfly flapping it's wings in China caused Katrina. Maybe it's true but there's no way to prove it.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]making a claim like that is akin to saying a butterfly flapping it's wings in China caused Katrina. Maybe it's true but there's no way to prove it.[/QUOTE]


    Bit

    Certain actions are likely to cause a certain response.....I have never seen any report showing that a butterfly flapping its wings will cause a hurricane but have seen numerous studies showing a postive correlation between a lower tax rate on securties/dividends and total return

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    [QUOTE=Lawyers, Guns and Money]Bit

    Certain actions are likely to cause a certain response.....I have never seen any report showing that a butterfly flapping its wings will cause a hurricane but have seen numerous studies showing a postive correlation between a lower tax rate on securties/dividends and total return[/QUOTE]

    even if i accept that for the sake of discussion you said it yourself "The Dow hit a nominal all time high but is no near its high adjusted for inflation....the Nasdaq and S&P500 are no where near the high"

    so what are Bush supporters really celebrating?

  14. #14
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    [QUOTE=bman]We experienced the greatest growth of the US economyu during Clinton years..
    So by your logic, you have to admit CLINTON was your daddy.[/QUOTE]


    Many individuals got very rich during the Clinton years. However the average investor who works for a company who socks a little money away into a 401K or an IRA were absolutely slaughtered by the market collapse. I don't blame that on Clinton, it's hard to blame the President for people believing good times are ahead but the fact is many more middle class working families lost their savings under his administration than got out at the top of the bubble.

    The tax cuts at least gave people an opportunity to have more money and put it into houses and other financial vehicles. Many of them are just now recovering from the market bubble while some of the upper middle class are about to get slammed by the housing bubble.

    It's hard to argue that letting people keep more of their money is ultimately more efficient for the economy than letting the government spend additional revenue.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]even if i accept that for the sake of discussion you said it yourself "The Dow hit a nominal all time high but is no near its high adjusted for inflation....the Nasdaq and S&P500 are no where near the high"

    so what are Bush supporters really celebrating?[/QUOTE]

    A lot of bogues claims were made in this thread, I was trying to address them. Anyway, it is a pretty incredible feat just to make new highs so quickly after a bubble collapsed. I believe it took the Dow 30 years to reach new highs after the collapse of 1929, Japan has never reached a new high after its collapse etc..

    I believe it is/was the right policy and this is evidence that is seems to be working. Tax recepits have increased, the stock market has bounced back and the economy is in decent shape as per most economists (Personally, I am now bearish, but that is because I am a firm believer in the business cycle and see a lot of evidence of overcapicity in many industries, believe the dollar is overvalued, am concerned about the gov't meeting obligations. Greenspan and Bernake just can't keep prining money to solve every problem, one of these times its going to lead to hyper-inflation...... and most of this has nothing to do with Bush)

  16. #16
    flushingjet
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]Many individuals got very rich during the Clinton years. However the average investor who works for a company who socks a little money away into a 401K or an IRA were absolutely slaughtered by the market collapse. I don't blame that on Clinton, it's hard to blame the President for people believing good times are ahead but the fact is many more middle class working families lost their savings under his administration than got out at the top of the bubble.

    The tax cuts at least gave people an opportunity to have more money and put it into houses and other financial vehicles. Many of them are just now recovering from the market bubble while some of the upper middle class are about to get slammed by the housing bubble.

    It's hard to argue that letting people keep more of their money is ultimately more efficient for the economy than letting the government spend additional revenue.[/QUOTE]

    that last point - wha?

    the first point is true if you were the average investor that just
    sends funds $ without managing it-anecdotally, most people
    not only dont manage their funds they often invest in
    lower yielding / losing funds without a 2nd thought

    i worked for one of the biggest dot-coms - options evaporated,
    stock went south, etc but my 401K was in tip-top shape
    because I managed it. cant feel too sorry for those who didnt-
    its not rocket science and anyone can do it

    clintons 1st Term - Tax Hikes and Flat Earnings/Growth-
    blech

    The bubble was essentially 2 OK to good years
    1997 & 1998 then roughly 2 big years 1999 to mid-2000

    hardly 8 years of roaring 20s-type boom times, despite lib revisionist history

  17. #17
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]Many individuals got very rich during the Clinton years. However the average investor who works for a company who socks a little money away into a 401K or an IRA were absolutely slaughtered by the market collapse. I don't blame that on Clinton, it's hard to blame the President for people believing good times are ahead but the fact is many more middle class working families lost their savings under his administration than got out at the top of the bubble.

    The tax cuts at least gave people an opportunity to have more money and put it into houses and other financial vehicles. Many of them are just now recovering from the market bubble while some of the upper middle class are about to get slammed by the housing bubble.

    It's hard to argue that letting people keep more of their money is ultimately more efficient for the economy than letting the government spend additional revenue.[/QUOTE]


    excellent post

  18. #18
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    "It's hard to argue that letting people keep more of their money is ultimately more efficient for the economy than letting the government spend additional revenue"

    Right !!! I think we can all agree that regardless of which party is in power, the gov't usually spends our money foolishly.

  19. #19
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    Kevin

    ever wind up taking the CFA I?

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet]that last point - wha?

    the first point is true if you were the average investor that just
    sends funds $ without managing it-anecdotally, most people
    not only dont manage their funds they often invest in
    lower yielding / losing funds without a 2nd thought

    i worked for one of the biggest dot-coms - options evaporated,
    stock went south, etc but my 401K was in tip-top shape
    because I managed it. cant feel too sorry for those who didnt-
    its not rocket science and anyone can do it

    clintons 1st Term - Tax Hikes and Flat Earnings/Growth-
    blech

    The bubble was essentially 2 OK to good years
    1997 & 1998 then roughly 2 big years 1999 to mid-2000

    hardly 8 years of roaring 20s-type boom times, despite lib revisionist history[/QUOTE]

    I don't know much about money management at all. On general observation the key seems to buy low and sell high to make real money in the markets. If you look at the Market and the inflows and outflows it's clear inflows are greatest when the market is high and outflows are the greatest when the market is low in the cycle. What that means to me is most people are actually buying high and selling low.

    The thing I have tried to do is be disciplined in my investing doing it regularly and fighting my instinct to stop when the market is turning down and to fight my instinct to put more in when the market appears to be going up. That has been pretty effective for me in accumulating reasonable returns. Trying to actual manipulate where I put the money has had much less impact than having the discipline to invest regularly regardless of the market trends.

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