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Thread: Military Victory Impossible in Iraq

  1. #1

    Military Victory Impossible in Iraq

    I agree with Kissinger.. We must get Iran and Syria to enter in the struggle..And if that means sitting at the same table with them so be it..The world doesn't revolve around who likes Isreal, and Who does not...

    Kissinger: Iraq military win impossible By TARIQ PANJA, Associated Press Writer
    47 minutes ago



    LONDON - Military victory is no longer possible in Iraq, former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger said in a television interview broadcast Sunday.

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    Kissinger presented a bleak vision of Iraq, saying the U.S. government must enter into dialogue with Iraq's regional neighbors — including Iran — if progress is to be made in the region.

    "If you mean by 'military victory' an Iraqi government that can be established and whose writ runs across the whole country, that gets the civil war under control and sectarian violence under control in a time period that the political processes of the democracies will support, I don't believe that is possible," he told the British Broadcasting Corp.

    But Kissinger, an architect of the Vietnam war who has advised President Bush about Iraq, warned against a rapid withdrawal of coalition troops, saying it could destabilize Iraq's neighbors and cause a long-lasting conflict.

    "A dramatic collapse of Iraq — whatever we think about how the situation was created — would have disastrous consequences for which we would pay for many years and which would bring us back, one way or another, into the region," he said.

    Kissinger, whose views have been sought by the Iraqi Study Group, led by former Secretary of State James Baker III, called for an international conference bringing together the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council, Iraq's neighbors — including Iran — and regional powers like India and Pakistan to work out a way forward for the region.

    "I think we have to redefine the course, but I don't think that the alternative is between military victory, as defined previously, or total withdrawal," he said.

  2. #2
    How about we listen to someone who isn't paid off by the Saudis?

  3. #3
    Sounds like Kissenger is gettin' senile!

    Shucks, we could win easily if we didn't worry so much about collateral damage! One of our guys had Zarqawi in his sights and asked his Lieut. for permission to fire, but his Lt. asked, "Are you sure it's him?" But by the time they were sure, he was unable to fire. Problem? worried about killing an "innocent." Unfortunately Zarqawi carried out a couple more attacks b/4 we did get him.

  4. #4
    flushingjet
    Guest
    [indent]Dumbmarine,
    Kissinger was a proponent of Vietnamization.
    Which, back then, is almost exactly like what we are doing in Iraq now.
    So, is he for or against his own methodology?

    Also, the author is a Muslim writing for the AP.

    Given their lack of journalistic integrity and bias,
    is that someone whose opinion anyone should even care about?[/indent]

  5. #5
    [QUOTE=flushingjet][indent]Dumbmarine,
    Kissinger was a proponent of Vietnamization.
    Which, back then, is almost exactly like what we are doing in Iraq now.
    So, is he for or against his own methodology?

    [B]Also, the author is a Muslim writing for the AP.

    Given their lack of journalistic integrity and bias,
    is that someone whose opinion anyone should even care about?[/B][/indent][/QUOTE]

    More evidence of ToiletJet's racism. The author works for the AP but because he is Muslim he automatically has an inherent bias and lacks journalistic integrity. Had this been an article defending Israel and the reporter been Jewish and someone said you cannot trust him because he is Jewish and he is biased and lacks integrity, ToiletJet would be the first to cry out "Anti-Semitism" . What a crock of sh!t!!!!

  6. #6
    kennyo, do you even know or care about what Muslim countries do or espouse? They were [U]a lot [/U]angrier over Abu Gharib (with the naked guys on a leash) then they were when jetliners crashed into our city killing thousands. Maybe you were too, I don't know, but either way, Muslims haven't earned much objectivity points in regards to describing the Middle East. In case you didn't notice, the President of Iran is a Holocaust denier.

    I'm not Jewish, but I've noticed many Jewish writers ply their trade with an even hand over Israel and the ME - or at least enough that I can at least begin reading a piece without preconceived doubts. The Arab street (Muslim community) hasn't earned that trust yet. Do you know anything about the AP photography fakery? They were...Muslims at AP.

  7. #7
    [QUOTE=sackdance]kennyo, do you even know or care about what Muslim countries do or espouse? They were [U]a lot [/U]angrier over Abu Gharib (with the naked guys on a leash) then they were when jetliners crashed into our city killing thousands. Maybe you were too, I don't know, but either way, Muslims haven't earned much objectivity points in regards to describing the Middle East. In case you didn't notice, the President of Iran is a Holocaust denier.

    I'm not Jewish, but I've noticed many Jewish writers ply their trade with an even hand over Israel and the ME - or at least enough that I can at least begin reading a piece without preconceived doubts. The Arab street (Muslim community) hasn't earned that trust yet. Do you know anything about the AP photography fakery? They were...Muslims at AP.[/QUOTE]

    Another racist. Yes all Muslims are liars/frauds/cheats/criminals/turrrisss/killers

  8. #8
    [QUOTE=kennyo7]Another racist. Yes all Muslims are liars/frauds/cheats/criminals/turrrisss/killers[/QUOTE]
    Not fair. You packed too much thought in your post. You've overwhelmed the rest of us mortals.

  9. #9
    [QUOTE=sackdance]Not fair. You packed too much thought in your post. You've overwhelmed the rest of us mortals.[/QUOTE]

    The truth hurts!

  10. #10
    flushingjet
    Guest
    [QUOTE=kennyo7]More evidence of ToiletJet's racism. The author works for the AP but because he is Muslim he automatically has an inherent bias and lacks journalistic integrity. Had this been an article defending Israel and the reporter been Jewish and someone said you cannot trust him because he is Jewish and he is biased and lacks integrity, ToiletJet would be the first to cry out "Anti-Semitism" . What a crock of sh!t!!!![/QUOTE]

    No, Muslim AP, AFP, Reuters stringers and other
    assorted dupes/collaborators are embedded with
    terrorists and caught falsifying photos
    -no bias, nope, nope

    [url="http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/08/thuggery_trickery_how_islamic.html"]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/08/thuggery_trickery_how_islamic.html[/url]

    [url="http://ftrsummary.blogspot.com/2006/09/ftr-566-middle-east-matrix-it-aint.html"]http://ftrsummary.blogspot.com/2006/09/ftr-566-middle-east-matrix-it-aint.html[/url]

    [url="http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=b0d85941-2565-4b47-b853-4041944114ee"]http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=b0d85941-2565-4b47-b853-4041944114ee[/url]

    And Dr. Giggles, FYI, Islam is not a race-
    its a cult.
    Just like Scientology, but more deadly and with more
    sociopathic suckers who blindly follow it

    Sounds like you have a problem with Jews or anyone
    who disagrees with your hypocritic oath.

    In the meantime lay off the post-Ramadan Percodan.

  11. #11
    [QUOTE=flushingjet]No, Muslim AP, AFP, Reuters stringers and other
    assorted dupes/collaborators are embedded with
    terrorists and caught falsifying photos
    -no bias, nope, nope

    [url="http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/08/thuggery_trickery_how_islamic.html"]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/08/thuggery_trickery_how_islamic.html[/url]

    [url="http://ftrsummary.blogspot.com/2006/09/ftr-566-middle-east-matrix-it-aint.html"]http://ftrsummary.blogspot.com/2006/09/ftr-566-middle-east-matrix-it-aint.html[/url]

    [url="http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=b0d85941-2565-4b47-b853-4041944114ee"]http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=b0d85941-2565-4b47-b853-4041944114ee[/url]

    And Dr. Giggles, FYI, Islam is not a race-
    its a cult.
    Just like Scientology, but more deadly and with more
    sociopathic suckers who blindly follow it

    Sounds like you have a problem with Jews or anyone
    who disagrees with your hypocritic oath.

    In the meantime lay off the post-Ramadan Percodan.[/QUOTE]


    I never said that [B]NO[/B] Muslims are embedded with the enemy or have written false article. That is plain silly. Just as silly as saying that because he is Muslim his story is automatically biased/false which IS what you said.

    Obviously you do have a problem with Islam , as noted by you refering to it as a cult. It is a religion.

    And No I have no problem with Jews (at least no more a problem than you have with Greeks/Cypriots). But like you said, there have been stories in the past falsified by Jews. Its just , i dont discount all stories by Jews simply b/c they are written by a jew. That would show that i have a problem with them (as you obviously have with muslims).

  12. #12
    Jets Insider VIP
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet]is almost exactly like what we are doing in Iraq now.
    [/QUOTE]


    But the differance is we will win if we don't quit.

    Stay the course.

    Mission accomplished.

    Shock and awe.

    Flip-flopper.

    Stand up-Stand down.

    Throw your damn hands up.

    Play to win the game.

    Heroes in a half shell.

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan]But the differance is we will win if we don't quit.

    Stay the course.

    Mission accomplished.

    Shock and awe.

    Flip-flopper.

    Stand up-Stand down.

    Throw your damn hands up.

    Play to win the game.

    Heroes in a half shell.[/QUOTE]

    [IMG]http://www.fototime.com/E6BFEB3D44A94DB/orig.jpg[/IMG]

  14. #14
    [QUOTE=flushingjet][indent]Dumbmarine,
    Kissinger was a proponent of Vietnamization.
    Which, back then, is almost exactly like what we are doing in Iraq now.
    So, is he for or against his own methodology?

    Also, the author is a Muslim writing for the AP.

    Given their lack of journalistic integrity and bias,
    is that someone whose opinion anyone should even care about?[/indent][/QUOTE]


    Fareed Zakaria is Muslim and is the editor of Newsweek International, writes for the Washington Post and appears on THIS WEEK with George Stepahanopoulos.

    I would think that he has journalistic integrity and I do care about his opinion as do many others including George Will as he is on THIS WEEK also.

    How can you condemn all for the faults of a few?

  15. #15
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg]Fareed Zakaria is Muslim and is the editor of Newsweek International, writes for the Washington Post and appears on THIS WEEK with George Stepahanopoulos.

    I would think that he has journalistic integrity and I do care about his opinion as do many others including George Will as he is on THIS WEEK also.

    How can you condemn all for the faults of a few?[/QUOTE]


    Zakaria is an American of Indian heritage.

    [quote]Kissinger presented a bleak vision of Iraq, saying the U.S. government must enter into dialogue with Iraq's regional neighbors — including Iran — if progress is to be made in the region.

    "If you mean by 'military victory' an Iraqi government that can be established and whose writ runs across the whole country, that gets the civil war under control and sectarian violence under control in a time period that the political processes of the democracies will support, I don't believe that is possible," he told the British Broadcasting Corp.

    But Kissinger, an architect of the Vietnam war who has advised President Bush about Iraq, warned against a rapid withdrawal of coalition troops, saying it could destabilize Iraq's neighbors and cause a long-lasting conflict.

    "A dramatic collapse of Iraq — whatever we think about how the situation was created — would have disastrous consequences for which we would pay for many years and which would bring us back, one way or another, into the region," he said.

    Kissinger, whose views have been sought by the Iraqi Study Group, led by former Secretary of State James Baker III, called for an international conference bringing together the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council, Iraq's neighbors — including Iran — and regional powers like India and Pakistan to work out a way forward for the region.

    "I think we have to redefine the course, but I don't think that the alternative is between military victory, as defined previously, or total withdrawal," he said. [/quote]

    Kissinger's words in this case have been subject to interpretation; his actual related to the controversy are the following:

    Source:[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/sunday_am/6163050.stm[/url]

    ANDREW MARR: [I]Do you think there is any hope left of a clear military victory in Iraq?[/I]

    HENRY KISSINGER: [I]If you mean by clear military victory an Iraqi government that can be established and whose writ runs across the whole country, that gets the civil war under control and sectarian violence under control in a time period that the political processes of the democracies will support, I don't believe that is possible.[/I]

    [B]What Kissinger is saying here is that the challenge in Iraq is not conducive to a military solution, the issue as in all internal conflicts is over the accpetance of the legitimacy of the government, they are never resolved solely by military means. The "time period that the political processes of the democracies" comment means that the expedient quality of US politics will go against the time required to effectively combine military criteria with current political trends and objectives. This has been his position since before the occupation.
    [/B]

    ANDREW MARR: And so that means that one way or another America and her allies in your view have to stay the course?

    HENRY KISSINGER: [I]No. I think we have to redefine the course. But I don't believe that the alternative is between military victory as it had been defined previously, or total withdrawal.[/I]

    The art of leadership now will be to find a course that will protect our values, our interests and the possibility of some progress in the area without simply blindly following a strategy which however reasonable it was when it was adopted, has now brought us to a point...

    [B]He has long been advocating to many individuals including myself that a liberal democracy in our image will not emerge overnight, that in the short term only a stable government may base its legitimacy by bringing order and security to its citizens rather than justice according to democratic prescriptions.[/B]

    ANDREW MARR: Has failed.

    HENRY KISSINGER: Has failed to achieve the objectives that were defined within a timeframe that our political processes will support.

    [B]He repeats here that US domestic political trends tend towards expediency in which demands to reduce or end our commitment will now be a motivating factor in US strategy. Military strategy and political goals have become bifurcated.[/B]

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=Equilibrium]He has long been advocating to many individuals including myself that a liberal democracy in our image will not emerge overnight, that in the short term only a stable government may base its legitimacy by bringing order and security to its citizens rather than justice according to democratic prescriptions[/QUOTE]


    Bringing order and security to its citizens. That is very important. Then why the hell didn't the morons who brought us this abortion of a war think of this crap before the first boot was on the ground. They just kind of winged it as they went along. We will suffer for many years, as will the Iraqis, because of the sheer ineptitude of the bumbling fools who half-as*ed this war from the start. Bush White House pre-war planning must of looked like the ending to the Benny Hill show...Freaking De-de f*cking de....

  17. #17
    [QUOTE=Equilibrium]Zakaria is an American of Indian heritage.



    Kissinger's words in this case have been subject to interpretation; his actual related to the controversy are the following:

    Source:[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/sunday_am/6163050.stm[/url]

    ANDREW MARR: [I]Do you think there is any hope left of a clear military victory in Iraq?[/I]

    HENRY KISSINGER: [I]If you mean by clear military victory an Iraqi government that can be established and whose writ runs across the whole country, that gets the civil war under control and sectarian violence under control in a time period that the political processes of the democracies will support, I don't believe that is possible.[/I]

    [B]What Kissinger is saying here is that the challenge in Iraq is not conducive to a military solution, the issue as in all internal conflicts is over the accpetance of the legitimacy of the government, they are never resolved solely by military means. The "time period that the political processes of the democracies" comment means that the expedient quality of US politics will go against the time required to effectively combine military criteria with current political trends and objectives. This has been his position since before the occupation.
    [/B]

    ANDREW MARR: And so that means that one way or another America and her allies in your view have to stay the course?

    HENRY KISSINGER: [I]No. I think we have to redefine the course. But I don't believe that the alternative is between military victory as it had been defined previously, or total withdrawal.[/I]

    The art of leadership now will be to find a course that will protect our values, our interests and the possibility of some progress in the area without simply blindly following a strategy which however reasonable it was when it was adopted, has now brought us to a point...

    [B]He has long been advocating to many individuals including myself that a liberal democracy in our image will not emerge overnight, that in the short term only a stable government may base its legitimacy by bringing order and security to its citizens rather than justice according to democratic prescriptions.[/B]

    ANDREW MARR: Has failed.

    HENRY KISSINGER: Has failed to achieve the objectives that were defined within a timeframe that our political processes will support.

    [B]He repeats here that US domestic political trends tend towards expediency in which demands to reduce or end our commitment will now be a motivating factor in US strategy. Military strategy and political goals have become bifurcated.[/B][/QUOTE]


    Zakaria, of Muslim heritage, was born in India, and is the son of former deputy leader of the Congress party and scholar Rafiq Zakaria.

    [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fareed_Zakaria[/url]

    Muslims are not just in North Africa

  18. #18
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg]Zakaria, of Muslim heritage, was born in India, and is the son of former deputy leader of the Congress party and scholar Rafiq Zakaria.

    [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fareed_Zakaria[/url]

    Muslims are not just in North Africa[/QUOTE]

    Very true Jetdawgg, I just wanted to imply that just because he was Muslim did not mean that he automatically was prejudiced against US policy; in fact he was an early advocate of the invasion and the occupation.

  19. #19
    [QUOTE=Equilibrium]Very true Jetdawgg, I just wanted to imply that just because he was Muslim did not mean that he automatically was prejudiced against US policy; in fact he was an early advocate of the invasion and the occupation.[/QUOTE]

    Posters here condemn whole websites, religions, etc. just because of one person or the actions of a few.

  20. #20
    Jets Insider VIP
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    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg]Posters here condemn whole websites, religions, etc. just because of one person or the actions of a few.[/QUOTE]

    so you find justification comparing websites to religions??? classic......

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