Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 49

Thread: Should the US

  1. #1
    All League
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,873
    Post Thanks / Like

    Should the US

    Convene a summit if all interested parties in the Middle East and try to solve some of the complicated problems there is facing the world. Palestinian rights, Iraq, Israel, Iran. I mean sooner or later someone has to make a move.

  2. #2
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    7,374
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=MnJetFan]Convene a summit if all interested parties in the Middle East and try to solve some of the complicated problems there is facing the world. Palestinian rights, Iraq, Israel, Iran. I mean sooner or later someone has to make a move.[/QUOTE]

    I have been saying something similar long before the recent election. It is overdue. You can't just sabre rattle and get the desired results.

  3. #3
    Rookie
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    714
    Post Thanks / Like
    It is this attitude that is going to eventually cripple us. Yes it sounds great and the common sense thing to do but as the old saying goes, know your enemy. Look waht happend when we talked and the UN was going to disarm Hezbollah? They ignored it and they got stronger.

    Look what happend after World War I. Everyone talked and eventually agreed germany would be forced to disarm. Then everyone ignored it and they almost took over the world has the US not intervened.

    We are dealing with crazy people who are born and raised to hate the united States and Israel and will do anything to destroy us. Talking out our differences is the stupidest thing we can do, in my opinion because we arent talking with rational people. I am also not saying what we are doing in Iraq is the solution but the pussification of America is very troubling. You think Teddy Rooselvelt would have ever tried to talk with anyone?

  4. #4
    All League
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,873
    Post Thanks / Like
    The US has to learn we cant impose our will on other countries anymore. It just doesn't work. Come on GW be a real man!

  5. #5
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    7,374
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=mallamalla]It is this attitude that is going to eventually cripple us. Yes it sounds great and the common sense thing to do but as the old saying goes, know your enemy. Look waht happend when we talked and the UN was going to disarm Hezbollah? They ignored it and they got stronger.

    Look what happend after World War I. Everyone talked and eventually agreed germany would be forced to disarm. Then everyone ignored it and they almost took over the world has the US not intervened.

    We are dealing with crazy people who are born and raised to hate the united States and Israel and will do anything to destroy us. Talking out our differences is the stupidest thing we can do, in my opinion because we arent talking with rational people. I am also not saying what we are doing in Iraq is the solution but the pussification of America is very troubling. You think Teddy Rooselvelt would have ever tried to talk with anyone?[/QUOTE]

    Did you serve in the military? It is easy and cowardly to tell others to fight when you won't do so yourself or your kids do it.

    Let's find out why they "hate the United States"

    As for the term "*****fication" how about the more appropriate "cerebralization".

  6. #6
    Jets Insider VIP
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Posts
    31,407
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=MnJetFan]Convene a summit if all interested parties in the Middle East and try to solve some of the complicated problems there is facing the world. Palestinian rights, Iraq, Israel, Iran. I mean sooner or later someone has to make a move.[/QUOTE]

    why waste the time and effort??

    This crap has been time and time again with all the muslim's shaking their head "yes" at these summit's then coming up empty in action...

    cripes- they gave Arafat a nobel peace prize based on his "intentions" from one of these summits and looked what happened when he was suppose to enforce the plan he agreed to....

  7. #7
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,701
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=MnJetFan]Convene a summit if all interested parties in the Middle East and try to solve some of the complicated problems there is facing the world. Palestinian rights, Iraq, Israel, Iran. I mean sooner or later someone has to make a move.[/QUOTE]

    Ok, you're the US Rep. You're at the table with Israel, Iran, Syria, Iraq, a Palestinian Rep, etc, etc, etc.

    First item?

    Iran, Iraq, Syria, the Palestinians and half a dozen other nations agree Israel has no right to exist, and must be destroyed for peace in the region.

    What do you do then?

  8. #8
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    7,374
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY]why waste the time and effort??

    This crap has been time and time again with all the muslim's shaking their head "yes" at these summit's then coming up empty in action...

    cripes- they gave Arafat a nobel peace prize based on his "intentions" from one of these summits and looked what happened when he was suppose to enforce the plan he agreed to....[/QUOTE]

    If this is a "waste of time and effort" what do you call Iraq?.

    Wars are expensive and a lot of times could be avoided by smarter people conversing. Even Iraq was started because of "bad intelligence" (whatever that means).

    Like I said earlier, lets get to the truth. Not just someone's slanted version.

    The truth may not be what we like, but it is what it is. That is something tangible to work with. Again, it is easy and cowardly to say "fight" when you or your kids are not out there in the mix.

  9. #9
    All League
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,873
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Warfish]Ok, you're the US Rep. You're at the table with Israel, Iran, Syria, Iraq, a Palestinian Rep, etc, etc, etc.

    First item?

    Iran, Iraq, Syria, the Palestinians and half a dozen other nations agree Israel has no right to exist, and must be destroyed for peace in the region.

    What do you do then?[/QUOTE]

    I would say that is not negotiable. A palestinian state with in borders is fine. The US must stand behind Israel or lose all credibility in the Middle East.

  10. #10
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    13,179
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=MnJetFan]The US has to learn we cant impose our will on other countries anymore. It just doesn't work. Come on GW be a real man![/QUOTE]


    That's right we can't impose our will but that doesn't mean we sit down at a table and make them our equals either. Low level discussions should take place before a major summit is convened. Until there is consensus that a framework for a deal can be worked out by all parties it's a mistake to have a summit and allow our enemies a forum for propoganda as our equals.

    As far as imposing our will is concerned we probably can't dictate our will on the ground but we sure can retaliate and inflict huge consequences on any one who choses to attack us or plot against us. Maybe we would be better off just letting our enemies know that rather than try and slug it out with them on their turf?

  11. #11
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,701
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=MnJetFan]I would say that is not negotiable. A palestinian state with in borders is fine. The US must stand behind Israel or lose all credibility in the Middle East.[/QUOTE]

    And when they say "Either give half of Israel to Palestine, including Jerusalem, or no deal?"....what do you do?

    When they walk away because you (the US Rep) is a Jew-lov'in infidel, what do you do?

    When you make the deal, and carve up a chunk of Israel for the Palestinians, and not a week later, Hamas and others start lauching attacks into the remainder, what do you do?

    Peace in the Middle East is not as simple as "sitting down together and talking". There are a number of fundamental differences in worldview here, and those are not going to get fixed via simple discussion and give and take.

    If someone told YOU, personally, that only your destruction would make them happy, and that their God told them your destruction was the proper course, how would YOU respond. You personally. What would you say, and do, to placate that person. What if that person was willing to die himself to ensure your end, and to please his God, who will reward him in the afterlife for your death while you go burning in hell? What could be said to such a person to stop them?

  12. #12
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    13,179
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg]
    Like I said earlier, lets get to the truth. Not just someone's slanted version.

    The truth may not be what we like, but it is what it is. That is something tangible to work with. Again, it is easy and cowardly to say "fight" when you or your kids are not out there in the mix.[/QUOTE]

    What truth? There is no truth that's the same for all sides.

  13. #13
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    7,374
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]What truth? There is no truth that's the same for all sides.[/QUOTE]

    I'm an optimist :) . I don't think that they would start with such a drastic statement either.

    That may be what it sounds like to some.

    Some excerpts I recieved over the past few days:

    [COLOR=Red][I][B]Remember: sometimes it takes more courage to champion the cause of peace than to bang the drums of war, and always America is strongest when we align ourselves with the highest aspirations of those who's hearts and minds should be joined with ours

    We must never surrender diplomacy to those who wish us ill.

    Remember that our great weapon is not the power of our shock and awe bombing, or our preemptive wars. It is the great truth of the power of our ideas. We must always be militarily strong, but the force of our ideas is always more powerful than the reckless use of force.

    We were strong, and never negotiated out of fear. We were smart, and never feared to negotiate. We were tough, and stood behind our troops. We were wise, and sent our great leaders to represent our country in the world's institutions. [/B] [/I] [/COLOR]

  14. #14
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    13,179
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg]I'm an optimist :) . I don't think that they would start with such a drastic statement either.

    That may be what it sounds like to some.

    Some excerpts I recieved over the past few days:

    [COLOR=Red][I][B]Remember: sometimes it takes more courage to champion the cause of peace than to bang the drums of war, and always America is strongest when we align ourselves with the highest aspirations of those who's hearts and minds should be joined with ours

    We must never surrender diplomacy to those who wish us ill.

    Remember that our great weapon is not the power of our shock and awe bombing, or our preemptive wars. It is the great truth of the power of our ideas. We must always be militarily strong, but the force of our ideas is always more powerful than the reckless use of force.

    We were strong, and never negotiated out of fear. We were smart, and never feared to negotiate. We were tough, and stood behind our troops. We were wise, and sent our great leaders to represent our country in the world's institutions. [/B] [/I] [/COLOR][/QUOTE]


    This isn't about optimism or pessimism and I didn't say we shouldn't talk, just not officially, publicly or at a high level which is what convening a conference suggests.

  15. #15
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg]I'm an optimist :) . I don't think that they would start with such a drastic statement either.

    That may be what it sounds like to some.

    Some excerpts I recieved over the past few days:

    [COLOR=Red][I][B]Remember: sometimes it takes more courage to champion the cause of peace than to bang the drums of war, and always America is strongest when we align ourselves with the highest aspirations of those who's hearts and minds should be joined with ours

    We must never surrender diplomacy to those who wish us ill.

    Remember that our great weapon is not the power of our shock and awe bombing, or our preemptive wars. It is the great truth of the power of our ideas. We must always be militarily strong, but the force of our ideas is always more powerful than the reckless use of force.

    We were strong, and never negotiated out of fear. We were smart, and never feared to negotiate. We were tough, and stood behind our troops. We were wise, and sent our great leaders to represent our country in the world's institutions. [/B] [/I] [/COLOR][/QUOTE]


    You're not an optimist, you're delusional and obviously ignorant of history. Do you know how many times "talking" and "diplomacy" have been tried before? Do you honestly think the world is some some big seminar where people can all get together and figure out clever little solutions to problems and that everyone in the world operates in good faith during these little summits? All this sort of thing does is provide cover and time for aggressors to lick their wounds and re-arm, while also providing yet ANOTHER contrived grievance they can use as a casus belli for future aggression.

    You operate under the notion that it is our behavior alone that is the cause of this hatred and belligerence we see from certain corners of the arab muslim world. That if we just acted differently, they wouldn't hate us or attack us. I can see why people have a need to think this way - it assumes that the world is rational and that people are rational and are only drive to the point of irrational hatred by a wrongness committed by someone else upon them. It's easier to think of a world where Islamissts only exist because WE have misbehaved. It's far more scary to think of a world in which Islamists exist independent of our behavior. Because in your worldview, we have control over Islamists...we alter our behavior, we satiate them and create peace. In the other worldview, our behavior is not the proximate cause of the violence and hatred. I am sure that things like the Iraq War are used as recruiting tools for terrorists...no question. But so was the Iraq situation prior to the 2003 invasion. In fact, OBL mentioned the sanctions and their crippling effect on Iraqi children as one of the reasons behind 9-11. So, had we kept the status quo in Iraq and not invaded, that would have been used as a rallying cry, had we nivaded, that would have been too. Our (completely justified) invasion of Afghanistan has been used as a rallying cry...and the notion that potential Islamist terrorists differentiate between dead Afghani children and dead Iraqi children is laughable. Find one single muslim arab who was perfectly fine with us killing Afghanis but was so incensed at our invasion of Iraq that he became a terrorists and I'll give you a million dollars.

    This is Battered Wife Syndrome. The notion that he only beats me because I misbehave and that the only way to avoid abuse is to not misbehave. And this can work for a while. Cause maybe he only hits you when you talk back or he's drunk. But pretty soon he sees that he can do so with impunity and that it works to get him what he wants, so he starts doing it for lesser "infractions" like dinner not being ready or you not answering your cell phone. What women eventually realize is that the guy is an ******* wife-beating lowlife and that their behavior is not the problem or cause of the beatings, but rather completely independent of that in their husband's character. Look at Islamic terror...there have been dozens of terrorists plots foiled recently in countries that openly opposed the Iraq War from the beginning. Hell, some guys drew cartoons of Mohammed and muslims rioted and killed people and most of the commentary focused on why the cartoonists "needed" to be "offensive" rather than no the more substantive point about what it is that causes these people to fly into murderous rages because of cartoons (cartoons!). Recently, the Pope suggested that the propensity for violence in some Muslims suggested a divorce between faith and reason and in response, some muslims stabbed a nun in the back. "You calling us violent!? We'll show you! We'll kill a random nun!"

    What you begin to realize is that EVERYTHING is a potential grievance. Cartoons, words, conducting a war, opposing the same war, etc. You will beging to realize that short of facing Mecca and praying five times a day, nothing we do will ever stop this because these "grievances" are merely a rallying cry that is used towards a greater purpose. If there was no Iraq War, there would be something else, just like Iraq was cited by OBL as a cause for 9-11. To believe otherwise is to be the Battered Wife making excuses for her husband. It also legitimizes terror as a method of negotiation. The problem with the current fad of multiculturalism and the notion that no one can judge another culture is that it rewards and legitimizes those who hold ridiculously extreme positions.

    We have talked and talked and talked. The Israelis and Arabs have talked and talked and talked a zillion times. Talking is not going to solve anything.
    Last edited by jets5ever; 11-22-2006 at 02:52 PM.

  16. #16
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,701
    Post Thanks / Like
    Damn my friend. That is one amazing post. Really. Requisite reading, great points, logical and right on the money. I can only hope those (like Dawgg) read it and try to understand it.

  17. #17
    All League
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    4,873
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Warfish]And when they say "Either give half of Israel to Palestine, including Jerusalem, or no deal?"....what do you do?

    When they walk away because you (the US Rep) is a Jew-lov'in infidel, what do you do?

    When you make the deal, and carve up a chunk of Israel for the Palestinians, and not a week later, Hamas and others start lauching attacks into the remainder, what do you do?

    Peace in the Middle East is not as simple as "sitting down together and talking". There are a number of fundamental differences in worldview here, and those are not going to get fixed via simple discussion and give and take.

    If someone told YOU, personally, that only your destruction would make them happy, and that their God told them your destruction was the proper course, how would YOU respond. You personally. What would you say, and do, to placate that person. What if that person was willing to die himself to ensure your end, and to please his God, who will reward him in the afterlife for your death while you go burning in hell? What could be said to such a person to stop them?[/QUOTE]

    So far as Jerusalem goes it is the SOUL of the Jewish State, nonnegotiable!

  18. #18
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,701
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=MnJetFan]So far as Jerusalem goes it is the SOUL of the Jewish State, nonnegotiable![/QUOTE]

    And as far as the continued existence of Israel on "Muslim Lands", that too is non-negotiable (to them).

    So as I said, what do you do next? You're little talking session just died two minutes in......

  19. #19
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    15,550
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Warfish]And as far as the continued existence of Israel on "Muslim Lands", that too is non-negotiable (to them).

    So as I said, what do you do next? You're little talking session just died two minutes in......[/QUOTE]

    Maybe they can hug it out.

  20. #20
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    2,393
    Post Thanks / Like
    In the 50+ years the un has existed what conflict has it solved? Absolutely nothing.

    True peace is only achieved thru the use of military force (or credible threat thereof) by a free and democratic country.

    Anything short of that is a liberal fairytale.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us