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Thread: Bush has lost battle for U.S. hearts, minds

  1. #1

    Bush has lost battle for U.S. hearts, minds

    Cheektowaga, N.Y.; Thibodaux, La.; Pflugerville, Texas; Presque Isle, Maine; Westerville, Ohio; Marysville, Wash.; Redding, Calif.; Stokesdale, N.C.; Bapchule, Ariz.; Oxford, Ala.

    These are the hometowns of 10 American troops killed recently in Iraq, 10 of almost 3,000 fatalities. And there will be many more. The good folks of Pflugerville and Westerville and Marysville no longer believe their sons and daughters are dying for a good reason, but President Bush seems in no mood to hear them.

    [url]http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/opinion/8999347827896493055[/url]

  2. #2
    I agree with yuo but not for the same r easons. While a percentage of Americans will always be anti-war regardless, I think 9at the outset) most people (at times reluctantly) could accept the argument that iraq is a horrible place, etc, for going to war. i don;t even think that WMD matter to most people.

    I think what has divided Bush from "American hearts and minds" is that he has been stubborn to a fault. I am glad he doesn't change his opinion by the polls, but even his supporters realized a while ago that the strategy in Iraq had to be adjusted............. an adjustment the guy(s) GWB stuck by resisted. Had he been more proactive and accessible, I think people would not be so frustrated by him.

  3. #3
    its pretty simple

    we are losing

    america doesn't abide losers

  4. #4
    [B]The elections certainly showed that, and since his party's defeat, the president's standing has continued to deteriorate. In the latest CBS News poll, [COLOR=Red]only 15 percent agree with him that America is winning the war[/COLOR], and even his closest supporters are jumping ship. Fewer than half of all Republicans, and only one-third of all conservatives, approve of the president's war strategy.

    The nation is facing an enormous tragedy. The current president can't or won't get out of Iraq, but staying means Pflugerville will keep burying its children. [COLOR=Red]Only a new president will be able to stop the dying[/COLOR].[/B]

    Some serious comments here.

    Who are these 15%?

  5. #5
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg]
    Some serious comments here.

    Who are these 15%?[/QUOTE]

    Ok, we're losing, and 3000 deaths is too many. Lets say I agree with you for sake of argument only.

    What do we do now?

  6. #6
    [QUOTE=Warfish]Ok, we're losing, and 3000 deaths is too many. Lets say I agree with you for sake of argument only.

    What do we do now?[/QUOTE]

    I say we

    withdraw the combat troops
    train the Iraqi Army
    help with the rebuilding effort (utilities, housing, schools, roads)
    train the Iraq workforce
    engage in dialog with Syria and Iran

    Adjust the strategy as necessary

    Just a start.

  7. #7
    flushingjet
    Guest
    [QUOTE=bitonti]its pretty simple

    we are losing

    america doesn't abide losers[/QUOTE]

    Hmm, yes,
    a simple comment from a simple mind.

    I just had a nice chat with a young man fresh from
    serving in Iraq.

    He told me that he freely made an adult decision to
    enlist in the US Army knowing full well he would probably
    be sent to Iraq, and was very happy to do so to destroy
    our enemies, and Saddam's Iraq was definitely an enemy.

    He also told me that we are not losing in Iraq, far from it, and that
    the vast majority of Iraqi people he has met are delighted
    Saddam is gone, happy we are there, and their life is improving.

    He said since he was there and knows whats happening that any
    one who is sitting here at home getting their news from CNN
    or a blog is completely ignorant and misinformed.

    And this is from a kid who is completely apolitical.

    Pretty simple, reallly.

  8. #8
    [QUOTE=flushingjet]Hmm, yes,
    a simple comment from a simple mind.

    I just had a nice chat with a young man fresh from
    serving in Iraq.

    He told me that he freely made an adult decision to
    enlist in the US Army knowing full well he would probably
    be sent to Iraq, and was very happy to do so to destroy
    our enemies, and Saddam's Iraq was definitely an enemy.

    He also told me that we are not losing in Iraq, far from it, and that
    the vast majority of Iraqi people he has met are delighted
    Saddam is gone, happy we are there, and their life is improving.

    He said since he was there and knows whats happening that any
    one who is sitting here at home getting their news from CNN
    or a blog is completely ignorant and misinformed.

    And this is from a kid who is completely apolitical.

    Pretty simple, reallly.[/QUOTE]

    It is no wonder that they take the fall for Abu Gharib and such....

  9. #9
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg]I say we

    withdraw the combat troops
    train the Iraqi Army
    help with the rebuilding effort (utilities, housing, schools, roads)
    train the Iraq workforce
    engage in dialog with Syria and Iran

    Adjust the strategy as necessary

    Just a start.[/QUOTE]

    Ok, great.

    --When do we withdraw the troops? Is there a date? Or a specific trigger event? Or just immediately, period?

    --Are we not already training the Iraqi Army? Should we continue to do so with the understanding that after we leave, these new trainees could be our enemy rather quickly if things don't work out? Will the troops stay in Iraq till we're "done" training their Army? How long will that take? Or will we somehow train them outside Iraq, in the US of example?

    --With no troops in Iraq, how can we "help with rebuilding" while keeping the contractor types safe from harm? And as above, if we're gone, and signs indicate that a non-US-occupied Iraq is headed Iranian, do we contineu to help rebuild? What is the benifit to us vs. the cost of doing it and keeping our people over there safe?

    --How do you propose we train the Iraqi workforce? Would we do it in Iraq, or here in the USA? If in Iraq, how do the trainers stay safe without troop support? Or is the Iraqi army enough in your view? What would we train them in, specificly, what types of jobs? To what end, specificly? What is the benifit to us vs. the cost of doing it and keeping our people over there safe?

    --When dialoging with Iran and Syria, what are your goals? How do you enforce any agreements? Do you allow them to develop nuclear technology? In what forms, and with what International oversight? Can the UN be trusted to enforce it? If they fail to, would we have any place in enforcing it? In what ways? What would you use as leverage in your dialog with them, or do you not plan on using leverage at all, but just trying to understand and help them?

    Appreciate your answers. Thanks.

  10. #10
    [QUOTE=flushingjet]Hmm, yes,
    a simple comment from a simple mind.

    I just had a nice chat with a young man fresh from
    serving in Iraq.

    He told me that he freely made an adult decision to
    enlist in the US Army knowing full well he would probably
    be sent to Iraq, and was very happy to do so to destroy
    our enemies, and Saddam's Iraq was definitely an enemy.

    [B]He also told me that we are not losing in Iraq, far from it, and that
    the vast majority of Iraqi people he has met are delighted
    Saddam is gone, happy we are there, and their life is improving.[/B]

    He said since he was there and knows whats happening that any
    one who is sitting here at home getting their news from CNN
    or a blog is completely ignorant and misinformed.

    And this is from a kid who is completely apolitical.

    Pretty simple, reallly.[/QUOTE]

    Obviously!
    Things are swimingly well in Iraq. Democracy is blossiming, freedom is spreading like wildfire. People are free to roam as they wish and have no fear at all! Sunnis and Shias are living side by side in peace and harmony. Iraq is a close allie of ours and is siding with us in the war on terror. Yes things are just great in Iraq.

    Nevermind that arecent report which showed that the US media is UNDERREPORTING the violence in Iraq.

    No lets listen to your friend Private Clueless!
    Tell your friend thanks for his service and i hope he stays safe , but he really has no idea what he talking about.

  11. #11
    [QUOTE=Warfish]Ok, we're losing, and 3000 deaths is too many. Lets say I agree with you for sake of argument only.

    What do we do now?[/QUOTE]

    Pull the troops out of Iraq in 4 months. Place them in the peripherary of the country to fight off any foreigners crossing into Iraq. Allow the Civil War to continue until the end. Shia and Sunni Iraqis are going to fight it out whether we like it or not and whether we stay or not. Our only objective is to limit the scope of this war by preventing foreign intervention by Iran and Saudi Arabia .

    Going intto Iraq and toppling Saddam was a mistake of epic proportion. We and the world were better off with him in power. The outcome of this will not be a free and democratic Iraq that will stand by the USA against terror. Sorry, that was jyust wishful thinking. Our options at this point are ALL bad.

  12. #12
    [QUOTE=Warfish]Ok, great.

    --When do we withdraw the troops? Is there a date? Or a specific trigger event? Or just immediately, period?

    --Are we not already training the Iraqi Army? Should we continue to do so with the understanding that after we leave, these new trainees could be our enemy rather quickly if things don't work out? Will the troops stay in Iraq till we're "done" training their Army? How long will that take? Or will we somehow train them outside Iraq, in the US of example?

    --With no troops in Iraq, how can we "help with rebuilding" while keeping the contractor types safe from harm? And as above, if we're gone, and signs indicate that a non-US-occupied Iraq is headed Iranian, do we contineu to help rebuild? What is the benifit to us vs. the cost of doing it and keeping our people over there safe?

    --How do you propose we train the Iraqi workforce? Would we do it in Iraq, or here in the USA? If in Iraq, how do the trainers stay safe without troop support? Or is the Iraqi army enough in your view? What would we train them in, specificly, what types of jobs? To what end, specificly? What is the benifit to us vs. the cost of doing it and keeping our people over there safe?

    --When dialoging with Iran and Syria, what are your goals? How do you enforce any agreements? Do you allow them to develop nuclear technology? In what forms, and with what International oversight? Can the UN be trusted to enforce it? If they fail to, would we have any place in enforcing it? In what ways? What would you use as leverage in your dialog with them, or do you not plan on using leverage at all, but just trying to understand and help them?

    Appreciate your answers. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

    I say we start withdrawing at the start of April '007. We move some of the troops to periphery and send the others (most) home.

    We made this mess. If they become our enemies (which I think that they already are) then we have to deal with that. That is another story though. I don't think that any army really wants to fight with the USA. Training of the Iraqi forces should take 1 year, again starting in April. Only training that is necessary should take place in the USA or other places. Let's keep our costs down.

    Let Halliburton stay if they want to. Our troops are to fight military battles not act like police. I would give them one year to get out. We can do things remotely (Arch designs, set up procurements, training, etc.). We don't have to be there physically.

    Again it has to start with rebuilding the infrastructure properly.

    Syria and Iran - Just getting them to the table is major. My objective is to LISTEN to them and find a way to get to peace. We as the USA don't have the answer. We as the USA has caused this mess. They know the region and the history and culture.

    Iran wants to develop nuclear technology for energy purposes. I think that they should be able to. A number of other countries have the technology.The more you try to force the issue that they can't the more tension you can cause and we have caused enough for now.

    I think that the US has to enforce that they are only using it for energy. I know that the DOE has measuring tools that can verify what they are doing with the technology. One of the rumors regarding the Russian spy who was killed is that now the technology does not have to be in bomb form to use.

    The killing was to show that it (nuclear) can be used in aerosol format and create the same chaos. Even worse, most places in the USA don't have the sensors to stem this type of attack. Thanks to Mr. Bush and his administration, we spent all of our monies fighting the "war in error".

  13. #13
    What do the Iraqi people want?


    Most Iraqis Want U.S. Troops Out Within a Year
    Say U.S. Presence Provoking More Conflict Than it is Preventing

    Approval of Attacks on U.S.-led Forces Rises to 6 in 10

    Full Report
    Questionnaire/Methodology
    Transcript of Brookings Saban Center Briefing

    A new WPO poll of the Iraqi public finds that seven in ten Iraqis want U.S.-led forces to commit to withdraw within a year. An overwhelming majority believes that the U.S. military presence in Iraq is provoking more conflict than it is preventing and there is growing confidence in the Iraqi army. If the United States made a commitment to withdraw, a majority believes that this would strengthen the Iraqi government. Support for attacks on U.S.-led forces has grown to a majority position—now six in ten. Support appears to be related to a widespread perception, held by all ethnic groups, that the U.S. government plans to have permanent military bases in Iraq.

  14. #14
    flushingjet
    Guest
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg]It is no wonder that they take the fall for Abu Gharib and such....[/QUOTE]

    Bene-fit-dawgg,
    Just keep on doing what you do best, condemn our country
    forward, backwards and every which way
    while still asking for handouts and reparations.

    Leave the panty wearing as unspeakable atrocity descriptions to the MSM.

  15. #15
    flushingjet
    Guest
    Chickadee,
    Sorry, "World Public Opinion" aka

    Left wing groups

    The Ford Foundation, JEHT Foundation and the
    Rockefeller Brothers Fund

    is not a very credible source for anything.

    Next....

  16. #16
    [QUOTE=flushingjet]Bene-fit-dawgg,
    Just keep on doing what you do best, condemn our country
    forward, backwards and every which way
    while still asking for handouts and reparations.

    Leave the panty wearing as unspeakable atrocity descriptions to the MSM.[/QUOTE]

    When the USA does right, like it did in the election, I am with it. When it does wrong, I am not afraid to speak out against it and push for change.

    Reparations is not a handout. The brutal gov't enforced slave trade was.

  17. #17
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    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg]When the USA does right, like it did in the election, I am with it. When it does wrong, I am not afraid to speak out against it and push for change.

    Reparations is not a handout. The brutal gov't enforced slave trade was.[/QUOTE]

    Reparations is not a hand out, you're right. It is burglary, plain and simple. The government wouldn't be giving away it's own money, it'd be giving away MY MONEY. [B]I [/B] didn't enslave anyone, let alone you, pal. I sure as sh*t ain't giving you any of my money for this crock of sh*t you call reparations.

    Every ethnic group the world has ever seen has been enslaved at some point and has enslaved others at some point. Look it up. People in this country act as if slavery is unique to the US and is only white-on-black. Trying to pay reparations to every group that claims a grievance is absurd and ridiculous. Affirmative action, reparations...are you telling me black people are too stupid to be given the same opportunity as everyone else? What other conclusion can one draw when you seek lower standards for blacks - you're essentially telling us that they are too stupid to be held to the same standards as non-blacks and meanwhile, affirmative action programs end up discriminating against minorities like Asians that [I]do[/I] perform well academically. I thought "equality" is what you wanted? I doubt you have any problem with the NBA being 85% black...and don't think we need an affirmative action program in order to get more whites accepted onto treams, right? And stop your ridiculous yammering about how the wealth of this country was built upon slave labor. If that were completely true, the free-states would have been poor relative to the slave-states prior to the Emancipation Proclamation, and that ain't true at all. Slavery in the US was shameful, horrible and regrettable and is an embarassment to us and it is something we should learn from. However, slavery was a WORLD scourge, not one peculiar to the US or to blacks enslaved by whites. In fact, it was whites who eventually figured out the moral horridness of slavery and who fought (yes, fought) with black Africans to stop the slave trade. Not only did western, predominantly white nations outlaw slavery, they also used their ships, soldiers, money and capital to enforce the ending of the slave trade, a trade engaged in by huge numbers of blacks, whites, arabs and others.

    Quit your f*cking whining.
    Last edited by jets5ever; 12-19-2006 at 03:27 PM.

  18. #18
    [QUOTE=flushingjet]Chickadee,
    Sorry, "World Public Opinion" aka

    Left wing groups

    The Ford Foundation, JEHT Foundation and the
    Rockefeller Brothers Fund

    is not a very credible source for anything.

    Next....[/QUOTE]


    Flush,
    Thanks for the information about "World Public Opinion". It seems as though everything you read has an agenda one way or another. We all know information and polls can be manipulated. Any suggestions where you can get news or information that is without a bias? The reason I felt that this poll may have had some credibility is because I originally read the article in "Editor and Publisher" and they described WPO as much respected. I also thought that Editor and Publisher was still pretty well respected.

    The poll was conducted for WorldPublicOpinion.org by the Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) at the University of Maryland and was fielded by KA Research Ltd. / D3 Systems, Inc. Polling was carried out September 1-4 with a nationwide representative sample of 1,150 Iraqi adults, which included an oversample of 150 Arab Sunnis (hereafter simply called Sunnis).
    Last edited by chicadeel; 12-19-2006 at 04:11 PM.

  19. #19
    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Reparations is not a hand out, you're right. It is burglary, plain and simple. The government wouldn't be giving away it's own money, it'd be giving away MY MONEY. [B]I [/B] didn't enslave anyone, let alone you, pal. I sure as sh*t ain't giving you any of my money for this crock of sh*t you call reparations.

    Every ethnic group the world has ever seen has been enslaved at some point and has enslaved others at some point. Look it up. People in this country act as if slavery is unique to the US and is only white-on-black. Trying to pay reparations to every group that claims a grievance is absurd and ridiculous. Affirmative action, reparations...are you telling me black people are too stupid to be given the same opportunity as everyone else? What other conclusion can one draw when you seek lower standards for blacks? I thought "equality" is what you wanted? And stop your ridiculous yammering about how the wealth of this country was built upon slave labor. If that were completely true, the free-states would have been poor relative to the slave-states prior to the Emancipation Proclamation, and that ain't true at all. Slavery in the US was shameful, horrible and regrettable and is an embarassment to us and it is something we should learn from. However, slavery was a WORLD scourge, not one peculiar to the US or to blacks enslaved by whites. In fact, it was whites who eventually figured out the moral horridness of slavery and who fought (yes, fought) with black Africans to stop the slave trade. Not only did western, predominantly white nations outlaw slavery, they also used their ships, soldiers, money and capital to enforce the ending of the slave trade, a trade engaged in by huge numbers of blacks, whites, arabs and others.

    Quit your f*cking whining.[/QUOTE]

    I don't whine at all. I have been thru the US Marine Corps (old skool at that).

    The problem that you have with reparations and several others on the board is that you personalize it. The horrific US gov't backed slave trade was not personalized. It was equal opportunity for every African in America. Even "freed" Africans could be turned into slaves.


    I am not talking about every ethnic group. I am quite specific here as this is where we are today.

    I have never made such a statement that African Americans are [I]"too stupid to be given the same opportunity as everyone else?" [/I].

    I am not seeking [I]"lower standards for blacks?"[/I]. I am seeking higher standards for the gov't that forced the cruel and abusive enslavement upon my people.

    Equality is what we will get and reparations is part of equalizing that 225 years of no pay for labor. A lot of creedence is built into the statement that the country was built upon the backs of Africans Enslaved in America.

    I am very aware that Progressive Major Race Americans fought for freedom and equality. A lot of them still do today. Some are on this board. Maybe you could be one of them. ;)

    When Americans band together like we did in the recent election we get what is right and just. I have a lot of faith in America. I put my life on the line for this nation. I believe in America. I think that the best in America is yet to come.

    I think that I may not get there to see it, but my children will or maybe my grandchildren if I ever get any.

  20. #20
    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Reparations is not a hand out, you're right. It is burglary, plain and simple. The government wouldn't be giving away it's own money, it'd be giving away MY MONEY. [B]I [/B] didn't enslave anyone, let alone you, pal. I sure as sh*t ain't giving you any of my money for this crock of sh*t you call reparations.

    Every ethnic group the world has ever seen has been enslaved at some point and has enslaved others at some point. Look it up. People in this country act as if slavery is unique to the US and is only white-on-black. Trying to pay reparations to every group that claims a grievance is absurd and ridiculous. Affirmative action, reparations...are you telling me black people are too stupid to be given the same opportunity as everyone else? What other conclusion can one draw when you seek lower standards for blacks - you're essentially telling us that they are too stupid to be held to the same standards as non-blacks and meanwhile, affirmative action programs end up discriminating against minorities like Asians that [I]do[/I] perform well academically. I thought "equality" is what you wanted? I doubt you have any problem with the NBA being 85% black...and don't think we need an affirmative action program in order to get more whites accepted onto treams, right? And stop your ridiculous yammering about how the wealth of this country was built upon slave labor. If that were completely true, the free-states would have been poor relative to the slave-states prior to the Emancipation Proclamation, and that ain't true at all. Slavery in the US was shameful, horrible and regrettable and is an embarassment to us and it is something we should learn from. However, slavery was a WORLD scourge, not one peculiar to the US or to blacks enslaved by whites. In fact, it was whites who eventually figured out the moral horridness of slavery and who fought (yes, fought) with black Africans to stop the slave trade. Not only did western, predominantly white nations outlaw slavery, they also used their ships, soldiers, money and capital to enforce the ending of the slave trade, a trade engaged in by huge numbers of blacks, whites, arabs and others.

    [/QUOTE]
    Gotta agree with everything you say here.

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