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Thread: Global Warming Question

  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Problem is, we do have proof that we are destroying ecosystems through continued capitalist adventures. The very fact that we have destroyed more ecosystems than any other time in the history of man (whether you believe the planet is 4.5 billion years old or whether its 15,000 years old) cannot not have an affect. I don't think it is farfetched to think our actions have consequences (something you have pointed to on a variety of posts). The affect to the planet is probably minimal, perhaps shifting the weather patterns, causing dry spells, flooding... to the planet, the affect is minimal. To the PEOPLE living on it, well that's another story.[/QUOTE]

    The standard of living for the people on this planet today is ridiculously higher than for those in all of recorded history, largely because of capitalism. Capitalism has been nothing but an amazing success story in terms of improving people's quality of life...mine, yours, etc.

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]That doesn't make any sense. If the warming is, in fact, normal on a global scale, what, then, makes anyone think we can do anything about it, no matter what we do in terms of energy policy? You also said that you recognize that it may not be a bad thing for the planet, but just humans. You then, in the same post, said that we need to stop being dependent on things that harm the [I]planet?[/I] Which is it, humanity or the planet, that you are worried about?

    If it is part of a normal trend, surely our time and resrouces should be devoted to adapting to a changing climate, not trying (fruitlessly) to control the weather, no? And how do we know it's a bad thing for humans? Humanity has been around for tens of thousands of years, surely we've gone through 150-year "trends" of changing climates. It's absurd to think that climate is something we can control...and that's what is at the heart of the alarmist mantra - we are to blame for this warming and (if we change our sinful ways) we can control it. Do you honestly think we can control the weather? Are people really that stupid and arrogant as to think that way?[/QUOTE]

    You are obviously not reading what I am saying very carefully. I said that climate change is not necessarily a bad thing for the planet. However, pollution and destroying natural resources are a terrible thing for the planet, and those are things that are under our control and our doing. In specifically answering your question, I am worried about BOTH our planet AND humanity.

    Climate change is a bad thing for humans because it effects the environments we live in. Global warming, whether man-made or not, is going to drastically change weather patterns and that in turn will drastically change our current environments. It's not going to happen overnight like some people claim, but the overall change of our habitat will be significant.

    I don't appreciate you calling me stupid and arrogant. We are not fully in control of our weather, but I do believe that we have added gasoline to the fire. There is a good chance that the damage already done cannot be reversed in a short time span, but I do believe a difference can still be made. We need to invest our time and resources in both adapting to a changing climate and trying to salvage what we can.

  3. #23
    [QUOTE=parafly] I said that climate change is not necessarily a bad thing for the planet. [B]However, pollution and destroying natural resources are a terrible thing for the planet, and those are things that are under our control and our doing. [/B] In specifically answering your question, I am worried about BOTH our planet AND humanity.

    [/QUOTE]

    This to me is just basic logic. I don't understand how wasting resources particularly those that are in the control of countries we are at odds with is in our own interest.

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=parafly]I disagree. People all over the country are constantly complaining about lack of sufficient high level jobs and outsourcing. IMO, this is our opportunity to kill two birds with one stone. I tend to think that an environmental revolution would be comparable to a Space Age Part 2, something that would boost our economy into the future.[/QUOTE]


    I agree, my post was in satire,, basically the thinking of those who would take a hit financially if we made adjustments for global warming...

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]This to me is just basic logic. I don't understand how wasting resources particularly those that are in the control of countries we are at odds with is in our own interest.[/QUOTE]

    I suppose that is why many people feel so strongly about the issue. It really is a win-win situation. Energy independence will be great for our country and economy. We might as well take it to the next level and make it Earth friendly at the same time. It just might make a difference in the grand scheme of things. If it doesn't, at least we can say we tried.

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=Renaissance10]I agree, my post was in satire,, basically the thinking of those who would take a hit financially if we made adjustments for global warming...[/QUOTE]

    Understood. It's tough to catch sarcasm on the internet sometimes. :D

  7. #27
    [QUOTE=parafly]I suppose that is why many people feel so strongly about the issue. It really is a win-win situation. Energy independence will be great for our country and economy. We might as well take it to the next level and make it Earth friendly at the same time. It just might make a difference in the grand scheme of things. If it doesn't, at least we can say we tried.[/QUOTE]


    My own position on this is the Government should do nothing more than tarif imported oil from OPEC. Our economy did fine with $75 dollar a barrell oil. There is no reason that SA, IRAN or VZ shouldn't have to pay a tariff of $20 to $25 dollars a barrell to import oil into the US. That money while being passed along to the consumer will also be available for financing domestic energy.

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=parafly]I suppose that is why many people feel so strongly about the issue. It really is a win-win situation. [B]Energy independence will be great for our country and economy[/B]. We might as well take it to the next level and make it Earth friendly at the same time. It just might make a difference in the grand scheme of things. If it doesn't, at least we can say we tried.[/QUOTE]


    please explain?? cause I don't see how it would be "great" for the economy or the country? "Energy independence" is such a crock. Not only is it not viable, it will be beyond costly. Corn Ethanol is probably the worst idea of all. It will drive up food costs, gas costs, either corrode oil infrastructure or force it to be replaced. This doesn't even consider the amount of natural gas that is need to make it. Its a pipe dream.


    BTW, we most of our oil imports are from Canada and Mexico, not exactly hostile nations**

    I mispoke, the nations we import the most from are Canada and Mexico, they are not where we get the majority of our imported oil from. Want to clarify
    Last edited by Lawyers, Guns and Money; 01-26-2007 at 02:46 PM.

  9. #29
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    [QUOTE=parafly]I suppose that is why many people feel so strongly about the issue. It really is a win-win situation. Energy independence will be great for our country and economy. We might as well take it to the next level and make it Earth friendly at the same time. It just might make a difference in the grand scheme of things. If it doesn't, at least we can say we tried.[/QUOTE]

    Explain, specifically, how it is win-win? Do you have any concept of the costs associated with this energy "independence?"

    Also, how are we "wasting" and "destroying" natural resources?

    (I don't think you are stupid, just that you are oversimplifying)

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Explain, specifically, how it is win-win? Do you have any concept of the costs associated with this energy "independence?"

    Also, how are we "wasting" and "destroying" natural resources?

    (I don't think you are stupid, just that you are oversimplifying)[/QUOTE]

    This is my train of thought, and although you can say I am oversimplifying, sometimes complex problems have straight forward solutions.

    The last few economic booms were directly influenced by social solutions to complex problems. WW2, the Space Age, and the Internet Age all sparked what turned out to be great economic leaps by our country. I see a potential Environmental/Energy revolution as the next great economic booster.

    Outsourcing of manufacturing, management, and technical professions is killing this country. We need a new industry to spark the national job market by creating new, high-level jobs. These new jobs would require the demolition of old technologies and the construction of new technologies. There would literally be an immediate need for thousands, if not millions, of engineers, scientists, construction workers, manufacturing workers, etc. Training on new technologies would spark education so that universities and teachers could benefit as well.

    A changeover in energy policy is surely a risky move, but in the end I believe it would create opportunities for generations to come and lay the foundation for our future economy.

  11. #31
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan]Funny. Except for the global warming bit, that's the same thing America collectivly screamed when it was confronted with Janet Jacksons mini sized sweater puppet.[/QUOTE]

    I’m not a skeptic… I just wanted to be the first person to do the “WERE GONNA DIE!!!” routine. Actually, throwing slogans is kind of fun. It’s much easier than thinking critically about the problem. Let’s face it… doing the proper research and critically thinking about it is quit the chore and immensely time consuming.

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]The standard of living for the people on this planet today is ridiculously higher than for those in all of recorded history, largely because of capitalism. Capitalism has been nothing but an amazing success story in terms of improving people's quality of life...mine, yours, etc.[/QUOTE]


    Good lord, I am not even going to bother with this. Go read something other than bias capitalist propoganda. Let me guess, Columbus is a hero, right?

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=parafly]This is my train of thought, and although you can say I am oversimplifying, sometimes complex problems have straight forward solutions.

    The last few economic booms were directly influenced by social solutions to complex problems. WW2, the Space Age, and the Internet Age all sparked what turned out to be great economic leaps by our country. I see a potential Environmental/Energy revolution as the next great economic booster.

    Outsourcing of manufacturing, management, and technical professions is killing this country. We need a new industry to spark the national job market by creating new, high-level jobs. These new jobs would require the demolition of old technologies and the construction of new technologies. There would literally be an immediate need for thousands, if not millions, of engineers, scientists, construction workers, manufacturing workers, etc. Training on new technologies would spark education so that universities and teachers could benefit as well.

    A changeover in energy policy is surely a risky move, but in the end I believe it would create opportunities for generations to come and lay the foundation for our future economy.[/QUOTE]


    Outsourcing is not killing this country...far from it, in fact. Spark the national job market? What are you talking about? No offense, but you're just not making any sense.

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Good lord, I am not even going to bother with this. Go read something other than bias capitalist propoganda. Let me guess, Columbus is a hero, right?[/QUOTE]


    I don't really know what a hero is in this context, sorry. I do know that capitalism has pulled millions and millions of people out of poverty, though.

    I do read a lot, from a lot of sources. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I am a fool or a person who is not well-rounded. Actually, it is precisely BECAUSE I am as knowledgable as I am that I hold such strong views. If that is cocky, so be it. It's the truth.

    Why do you think our living standard is so high? I'd be interested to hear it, though I think I can predict what you'll say....
    Last edited by jets5ever; 01-26-2007 at 04:45 PM.

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=finlee17]I’m not a skeptic… I just wanted to be the first person to do the “WERE GONNA DIE!!!” routine. Actually, throwing slogans is kind of fun. It’s much easier than thinking critically about the problem. Let’s face it… doing the proper research and critically thinking about it is quit the chore and immensely time consuming.[/QUOTE]


    finlee - If you value thinking critically and doing proper research, isn't hearing a different viewpoint from an informed person part of that process? You should welcome debate and guys like Lomborg. You should read his book and I remember you giving me a line about not wanting to spend a lot of money on someone you'd likely disagree with. Sounds like your mind is made up, regardless. You have to at least admit that a LARGE part of the defense mechanism of the global warming alarmists is to resort to ad hominem attacks against people...as if research funded by green groups is ok, but research funded by capitailsts is suspect. Lomborg has been brutalized and people constantly try to say things like, "The debate is over." It's laughable to say that and completely contrary to the scientific process. I am sure you've read Kuhn's book on the Structure of Scientific Revolutions. You know how dangerous a consensus can potentially be, especially if powerful people try to quash skeptics. I know you've mentioned that you and others like you have laughed at how ridiculous some of global warming alarmisn has been. And I am sorry, but people aren't nearly honest enough about the flaws in and limitations of their research. It's all about headlines. It's getting to a point where I just laugh.

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Outsourcing is not killing this country...far from it, in fact.[/QUOTE]

    :eek: :eek: :eek:

    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Spark the national job market? What are you talking about? No offense, but you're just not making any sense.[/QUOTE]

    Yes, spark the local job market. Sorry, but cutting the unemployment rate with jobs at McDonald's and Wendy's just doesn't do it for me. Outsourcing is very real, and the country needs more high-level jobs.

  17. #37
    [QUOTE=parafly]Here's another factoid for you: scientists know for a fact that for the last 800,000 years, the ice caps at the poles have never completely melted. Almost all advanced computer models predict that this will happen within the next 50 years. This may just be a natural cycle, but then again, it may be us.[/QUOTE]

    And here is a factoid in return:

    The Weather Man Said we'd get 1-2 inches of snow the other day, calling for it for the next day.

    We got no snow at all. Sunny (mostly) and 39 degrees all day long.

    Now, all the environmental scientists on Earth cannot tell me with any accuracy what the weather will be like in one week. Yet you expect us to buy that their "advanced models" can tell us with any surety what will happen in 100, 500 or 1000 years?
    Last edited by Warfish; 01-26-2007 at 04:55 PM.

  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=Warfish]And here is a factoid in return:

    The Wather Man Said we'd get 1-2 inches of snow the other day, calling for it for the next day.

    We got no snow at all. Sunny (mostly) and 39 degrees all day long.

    Now, all the environmental scientists on Earth cannot tell me with any accuracy what the weather will be like in one week. Yet you expect us to buy that their "advanced models" can tell us with any surety what will happen in 100, 500 or 1000 years?[/QUOTE]

    Predicting local weather on a small scale is completely different from predicting global trends. Whether you believe the models or not, the polar ice caps are melting rapidly, and there's no sign of it stopping any time soon.

  19. #39
    [QUOTE=parafly]Predicting local weather on a small scale is completely different from predicting global trends.[/QUOTE]

    Sure it isn't. After all, if they WERE similar, your entire argument would have been disproven.

    And we sure couldn't have THAT could we? :rolleyes:

    By the way, I'm still waiting for the New Ice Age (tm) that these same scientists were calling for a mere 20-odd years ago. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

  20. #40
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    [QUOTE=Warfish]Sure it isn't. After all, if they WERE similar, your entire argument would have been disproven.

    And we sure couldn't have THAT could we? :rolleyes:

    By the way, I'm still waiting for the New Ice Age (tm) that these same scientists were calling for a mere 20-odd years ago. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    It really doesn't bother me how you feel about the whole situation. The scientists say that the polar ice caps will melt and all evidence point to this happening. I'll take their word over yours.

    I don't know what specific New Ice Age you speak of, but make not doubt about it. If climate change continues at its current rate, an ice age will happen sooner rather than later.

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