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Thread: The Real Obama?

  1. #21
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg]This is the first war that any president has fought without a new tax or war tax to foot the bill. Incredible.[/QUOTE]

    it's also the first to ever feature tax CUTS during a time of war

    people like to talk about WWII, those people rationed everything and bought bonds - meanwhile we are fighting oil producing countries and can't be bothered to stop using empty SUVs to pickup groceries.

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=bitonti]it's also the first to ever feature tax CUTS during a time of war

    people like to talk about WWII, those people rationed everything and bought bonds - meanwhile we are fighting oil producing countries and can't be bothered to stop using empty SUVs to pickup groceries.[/QUOTE]

    of course none of this has anything to do with the thread but I'm sure the lunatic leftists will continue to point the fingers at other for changing the topic....

    but to show the ignorance of this statement, the economy keeps rolling along at record pace, the country is at record employment and tax receipts taken in by the government continually set all time highs....but lets ignore the facts of the matter...
    Last edited by Come Back to NY; 01-31-2007 at 10:34 AM.

  3. #23
    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY]and to show the ignorance of this statement, the [B]economy keeps rolling along at record pace[/B], the country is at record employment and tax receipts taken in by the government continually set all time highs....but lets ignore the facts of the matter...[/QUOTE]


    Anyone can roll when they don't have to pick up the [B][COLOR=Red]credit card bill[/COLOR][/B]

    Bush has over spent on this war and you will soon see it. I am surprised that you guys call yourselves [B]conservatives[/B] and allow this spending to go unchecked....

  4. #24
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg]Anyone can roll when they don't have to pick up the [B][COLOR=Red]credit card bill[/COLOR][/B]

    Bush has over spent on this war and you will soon see it. I am surprised that you guys call yourselves [B]conservatives[/B] and allow this spending to go unchecked....[/QUOTE]

    Bush has indeed run up massive debt: very surprising from a party whose outlook is small government. Most of that debt is owned by the Chinese and Japanese; most economists worth their salt will tell you the US government is living in a fool's paradise that will come crashing down around their ears at some stage. Probably when the Democrats are in power so the Republicans can blame them for a Republican created mess.

    Bush Snr handed over the reigns to Clinton with humungous debt as well: I didn't think that was the fault of GW's Dad, more the fault of Reagan, and the fact Bush Snr was unlucky enough to catch a recession during his term. Out of the Republican presidents I thought he has been the far superior of his son or Ronald Reagan, especially on the foriegn policy front.

  5. #25
    Yeah that's just what we need right now, a Wahabbi Muslim President of the United States

    It makes sense too me ..

    If we're gonna commit mass suicide, don't jerk around with it, just go on and do it expeditiously

  6. #26
    [QUOTE=Black Death]most economists worth their salt will tell you the US government is living in a fool's paradise that will come crashing down around their ears at some stage.[/QUOTE]
    When you meet these hi-quality economists do you introduce yourself as "Black Death"? I'm asking because it might appeal to their fool's paradise sensibility.

  7. #27
    [QUOTE=sackdance]When you meet these hi-quality economists do you introduce yourself as "Black Death"? I'm asking because it might appeal to their fool's paradise sensibility.[/QUOTE]

    Possibly: I trade in equity markets and know a few economists who do the same, so perhaps I too am living in a fool's paradise, given that the US going down the tubes would be very bad for holding stocks.

  8. #28
    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham]Yeah that's just what we need right now, a Wahabbi Muslim President of the United States

    It makes sense too me ..

    If we're gonna commit mass suicide, don't jerk around with it, just go on and do it expeditiously[/QUOTE]

    ham you are smarter than that - to reiterate that story is completely untrue - a total lie made up to smear his character.

  9. #29
    [QUOTE=Black Death]Possibly: I trade in equity markets and know a few economists who do the same, so perhaps I too am living in a fool's paradise, given that the US going down the tubes would be very bad for holding stocks.[/QUOTE]
    Do you trade or hold stocks, Black Death? Because if you trade the "US going down the tubes" sentiment, even as a given fact in any way you define it, matters nothing to neither bear nor bull. And if you are an investor, we'd take as a given that you would be immersed in research; some due diligence here quickly uncovers that it would take a foolish economist to flatly utter: "the US going down the tubes". A) The statement cannot stand on its own without further definition. B) The immense wealth of capital in the US makes the assertion, taken at face value, absurd.

    To be honest, I'm unimpressed with your posts so far. You're long in generalities and short on the command of your subject matter. And quite possibly just another meddling teenager.

  10. #30
    [QUOTE=sackdance]Do you trade or hold stocks, Black Death? Because if you trade the "US going down the tubes" sentiment, even as a given fact in any way you define it, matters nothing to neither bear nor bull. And if you are an investor, we'd take as a given that you would be immersed in research; some due diligence here quickly uncovers that it would take a foolish economist to flatly utter: "the US going down the tubes". A) The statement cannot stand on its own without further definition. B) The immense wealth of capital in the US makes the assertion, taken at face value, absurd.

    To be honest, I'm unimpressed with your posts so far. You're long in generalities and short on the command of your subject matter. And quite possibly just another meddling teenager.[/QUOTE]

    I'm not a teenager, and old enough to wish I was.

    As for the US economy going down the tubes, I think that it is relative to the long period of unparalleled growth the US economy has experienced from the 1980's (a few short sharp corrections aside). Though I should say this is the political forum of the JetsInsider, not the 'US future' thread on economists.com: in other words I'll save the lengthy replies for elsewhere, though if you want me to give you the long and short of it, as to why I think things are not going to be so peachy in future, basically these things move in cycles, and when the US has record public and private debt that is growing almost exponentially, I think this current cyclical boom is nearing its end. You can't live on borrowed money forever: I totally agree the US economy is an incredibly diverse and strong one, but then they were saying that about Japan in the late 80's. Since then that country went into a deflationary spiral that saw their stock market end up a quarter of its value from its highs; back then everyone was saying that Japan was the miracle economy. After 15 years, it is only very recently that Japan has recovered somewhat, though still their economy is comparatively very stagnant.

    As for the wealth of the US: that can quickly be eroded by a deflationary or stagflationary situation. The world at the moment is awash in cash, a damn lot of it produced by interest rates that are at record lows and the fact that the US consumer and government is buying overseas products at record rates. Both of these situations are unsustainable, and when the **** hits the fan I doubt that Bernake will be able to issue those US notes fast enough to get us all out of it.

  11. #31
    [QUOTE=Black Death]I'm not a teenager, and old enough to wish I was.

    As for the US economy going down the tubes, I think that it is relative to the long period of unparalleled growth the US economy has experienced from the 1980's (a few short sharp corrections aside). Though I should say this is the political forum of the JetsInsider, not the 'US future' thread on economists.com: in other words I'll save the lengthy replies for elsewhere, though if you want me to give you the long and short of it, as to why I think things are not going to be so peachy in future, basically these things move in cycles, and when the US has record public and private debt that is growing almost exponentially, I think this current cyclical boom is nearing its end. You can't live on borrowed money forever: I totally agree the US economy is an incredibly diverse and strong one, but then they were saying that about Japan in the late 80's. Since then that country went into a deflationary spiral that saw their stock market end up a quarter of its value from its highs; back then everyone was saying that Japan was the miracle economy. After 15 years, it is only very recently that Japan has recovered somewhat, though still their economy is comparatively very stagnant.

    As for the wealth of the US: that can quickly be eroded by a deflationary or stagflationary situation. The world at the moment is awash in cash, a damn lot of it produced by interest rates that are at record lows and the fact that the US consumer and government is buying overseas products at record rates. Both of these situations are unsustainable, and when the **** hits the fan I doubt that Bernake will be able to issue those US notes fast enough to get us all out of it.[/QUOTE]
    Good answer, thanks. Now, specifically, 'down the tubes' will mean what? The US itself is awash in innovation. We feed the world. The weaker dollar has spurred increases in American manufacturing, even in long dormant industries like steel. American companies are cleaning up overseas in nations like China, you know that politically fragile and corrupt country that everyone is afraid of? Short Starbucks at your own peril.

  12. #32
    [QUOTE=Black Death]Bush has indeed run up massive debt: very surprising from a party whose outlook is small government. Most of that debt is owned by the Chinese and Japanese; most economists worth their salt will tell you the US government is living in a fool's paradise that will come crashing down around their ears at some stage. Probably when the Democrats are in power so the Republicans can blame them for a Republican created mess.

    Bush Snr handed over the reigns to Clinton with humungous debt as well: I didn't think that was the fault of GW's Dad, more the fault of Reagan, and the fact Bush Snr was unlucky enough to catch a recession during his term. Out of the Republican presidents I thought he has been the far superior of his son or Ronald Reagan, especially on the foriegn policy front.[/QUOTE]

    Bush Sr had to raise taxes....This is the "borrow and spend" republican approach to gov't. I thought Bush Sr was better also particularly on FP. Clinton was just very intelligent.

  13. #33
    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham]Yeah that's just what we need right now, a Wahabbi Muslim President of the United States

    It makes sense too me ..

    If [B]we're gonna commit mass suicide[/B], don't jerk around with it, just go on and do it expeditiously[/QUOTE]

    The GWB metholdogy of 20K at a time seems to fit the bill

  14. #34
    [QUOTE=sackdance]Good answer, thanks. Now, specifically, 'down the tubes' will mean what? The US itself is awash in innovation. We feed the world. The weaker dollar has spurred increases in American manufacturing, even in long dormant industries like steel. American companies are cleaning up overseas in nations like China, you know that politically fragile and corrupt country that everyone is afraid of? Short Starbucks at your own peril.[/QUOTE]

    The price of steel is very high at the moment chiefly because of China; you should visit there, the building and construction is unlike anything I've seen. It isn't the weaker dollar that has spurred steel, it is mainly China, though also other Asian countries like India. It is also China that is chiefly responsible for the massive rise in prices of zinc, copper, iron, and indeed oil, among other commodities. When you are trying to drag a country of over a billion people out of the 19th century and into the 21st these price rises are the result.

    The problem is is that that construction is being paid for by the US consumer: have a looksee at your computer screen and see where it is made. Probably China. And when most of that expenditure comes through debt (credit card, bank loan etc), and when your government as well owes a staggering amount of money to this 'politically fragile and corrupt country', alarm bells should be ringing. Especially so because, despite the pretence to capitalism, the Chinese economy is still a command economy whose byzantine banking system and communist regulation are still shutting out American companies from doing business there.

    If anything, Chinese companies are cleaning up at the expense of American ones: the US $ if anything is way overvalued compared to the Chinese Yuan, which is held artificially low by the Chinese government. It gives China an unnatural advantage when it comes to trade, which is why US manufacturing companies are now shifting their factories there at the expense of US workers. Why pay a worker from the mid-west 10 times what you would from some worker on the Yangtze plain? The Chinese work longer hours and are paid peanuts, and there is none of those nasty unions to deal with because the communists [I]are[/I] the unions, and they are the ones who set the Yuan at its discount rate in the first place.

    The Chinese are busy buying up world resource assets as quick as they can get their mitts on them. They are also pursuing a foriegn policy that is currently leaving America in the shade.

    As for 'down the tubes': I mean the current good times are not sustainable. History tells us that good times are always followed by bad; and with the US debt level where it is, the hammer will fall particularly hard on the ordinairy Joe US citizen. I'm not claiming that the US will default on loans or anything that drastic, but that you'd best enjoy these days of honey while you can.
    Last edited by Soberphobia; 01-31-2007 at 12:49 PM.

  15. #35
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    It just came back to me why I don't post on this forum. :zzz:

  16. #36
    [QUOTE=Black Death]The price of steel is very high at the moment chiefly because of China; you should visit there, the building and construction is unlike anything I've seen. It isn't the weaker dollar that has spurred steel, it is mainly China, though also other Asian countries like India. It is also China that is chiefly responsible for the massive rise in prices of zinc, copper, iron, and indeed oil, among other commodities. When you are trying to drag a country of over a billion people out of the 19th century and into the 21st these price rises are the result.

    The problem is is that that construction is being paid for by the US consumer: have a looksee at your computer screen and see where it is made. Probably China. And when most of that expenditure comes through debt (credit card, bank loan etc), and when your government as well owes a staggering amount of money to this 'politically fragile and corrupt country', alarm bells should be ringing. Especially so because, despite the pretence to capitalism, the Chinese economy is still a command economy whose byzantine banking system and communist regulation are still shutting out American companies from doing business there.

    If anything, Chinese companies are cleaning up at the expense of American ones: the US $ if anything is way overvalued compared to the Chinese Yuan, which is held artificially low by the Chinese government. It gives China an unnatural advantage when it comes to trade, which is why US manufacturing companies are now shifting their factories there at the expense of US workers. Why pay a worker from the mid-west 10 times what you would from some worker on the Yangtze plain? The Chinese work longer hours and are paid peanuts, and there is none of those nasty unions to deal with because the communists [I]are[/I] the unions, and they are the ones who set the Yuan at its discount rate in the first place.

    The Chinese are busy buying up world resource assets as quick as they can get their mitts on them. They are also pursuing a foriegn policy that is currently leaving America in the shade.

    As for 'down the tubes': I mean the current good times are not sustainable. History tells us that good times are always followed by bad; and with the US debt level where it is, the hammer will fall particularly hard on the ordinairy Joe US citizen. I'm not claiming that the US will default on loans or anything that drastic, but that you'd best enjoy these days of honey while you can.[/QUOTE]


    Why would you want to have people paid high wages and big benefits to make socks and jeans when we have almost zero unemployment? Any person walking into this country who has any initiative can get a job and advance themselves right now. How does China making things for us cheaply that we don't have the manpower for adversely affect us? Cheap goods are keeping inflation down and helping us. We can use our labor for more productive things while still benefiting from the low cost of goods and services that we can't even provide if they weren't doing it.

    I don't disagree that running large deficits during the later part of an economic expansion is a good thing, it clearly isn't but when you have full employment to b*tch about cheap goods coming in that benefits all of us doesn't really make sense. What we really need to do is keep improving productivity so the expansion of our economy doesn't stop.

  17. #37
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]Why would you want to have people paid high wages and big benefits to make socks and jeans when we have almost zero unemployment? [B]Any person walking into this country who has any initiative can get a job and advance themselves right now.[/B] How does China making things for us cheaply that we don't have the manpower for adversely affect us? Cheap goods are keeping inflation down and helping us. We can use our labor for more productive things while still benefiting from the low cost of goods and services that we can't even provide if they weren't doing it.

    I don't disagree that running large deficits during the later part of an economic expansion is a good thing, it clearly isn't but when you have full employment to b*tch about cheap goods coming in that benefits all of us doesn't really make sense. What we really need to do is keep improving productivity so the expansion of our economy doesn't stop.[/QUOTE]

    I know quite a few hi-tech people who would disagree witht that statement.

  18. #38
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg]I know quite a few hi-tech people who would disagree witht that statement.[/QUOTE]
    Hi-tech or hi-ego? Either way, they should be able to put bread on the table.

  19. #39
    [QUOTE=sackdance]Hi-tech or hi-ego? Either way, they should be able to put bread on the table.[/QUOTE]

    I don't think working at Wendy's or WalMart is their cup of tea.

  20. #40
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg]I don't think working at Wendy's or WalMart is their cup of tea.[/QUOTE]

    Unemployment is lower right now than ever. Wages are rising at the fastest level in years. There is more home ownership right now than in the history of this country. The choice of affordable appliances, clothing, food has never been greater.

    There are plenty of people who started at Wallmart and Wendy's with their first jobs who have worked their way into good management positions and are providing a good living for themselves. There are also senior citizens working part time for a few extra bucks and a few hours out of the house who enjoy those jobs. There are also start up jobs for people at those places which teach them a very basic skill, how to work and interact. They also provide second incomes for many people. You talk about those jobs as if they were somehow beneath contempt.

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