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Thread: Young Marine Dies Of PTSD - And Neglect

  1. #21
    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio]You libs conveniently forget about factors like obesity and maternal drug use, which are greater factors in these statistics than government policy. Blame the government, not the individual. Way to go.[/QUOTE]

    You right wingers forget about somethig called PREVENTIVE MEDICINE, which goes along way to tackling these issues. Something that works much better in socialized systems like in Sweden and Norway

  2. #22
    [QUOTE=Warfish]My Point was rather simple. My Mother, as well as all of my Fathers Side of my Family live in the UK (Ireland, and Scotland), and I am well aware of both the lack of quality, and the excessive wait times involved in the UK Social Medicine System.

    You can chart all the massive impersonal (and unrelated) numbers you like Ken. Who here was talking of Infant Mortallity, I know I wasn't. These numbers mean nothing whatsoever in the limited context of which I was speaking. The various factors that could affect those numbers OTHER than the specific healthcare system is so broad and wide, it renders them of little to no use in the specific question of quality and wait times I am referring to.

    I get the real scoop from my Blood, who live in that system every day. And I trust them far more than I'll ever trust you.[/QUOTE]

    I have blood who live in the same system. Yes there are waits, but for elective procedures. Tell me , what critical care did your family have denied to them in the UK???

    Infant Mortality (unlike surveying your families opinion)is a very important marker re one nations health care system. Thats why i brought it up. I figured you might know that, but as usual, i overestimated you. No offense, but when judging anations health care system, your family's opinion means nothing. Measurements such as infant mortality, mean alot more.

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]You right wingers forget about somethig called PREVENTIVE MEDICINE, which goes along way to tackling these issues. Something that works much better in socialized systems like in Sweden and Norway[/QUOTE]
    All the preventive medicine in the world won't help those who overeat, don't exercise, smoke up a storm, etc. Again, passing the blame from the individual to the government. What happened to personal responsibility? I deal with this on the frontlines everyday, not in some ivory tower or sociology textbook.

    BTW, medicaid patients always seem to get every screening test they need, more so than the working stiffs.

  4. #24
    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio]All the preventive medicine in the world won't help those who overeat, don't exercise, smoke up a storm, etc. Again, passing the blame from the individual to the government. What happened to personal responsibility? I deal with this on the frontlines everyday, not in some ivory tower or sociology textbook.

    BTW, medicaid patients always seem to get every screening test they need, more so than the working stiffs.[/QUOTE]

    You are wrong about this. I work as a pysician at a VA and i can honestly tell you, for those who come to me on a routine basis, preventive medicine does work. Take for instance diabetics. When they come regularly, they tend to have better controll of their sugars, their BPs, their eyes and feet. This goes along way to preventing alot of the morbidity/mortality assoc with diabetes.

  5. #25
    [QUOTE=kennyo7]I have blood who live in the same system. Yes there are waits, but for elective procedures. Tell me , what critical care did your family have denied to them in the UK???

    Infant Mortality (unlike surveying your families opinion)is a very important marker re one nations health care system. Thats why i brought it up. I figured you might know that, but as usual, i overestimated you. No offense, but when judging anations health care system, your family's opinion means nothing. Measurements such as infant mortality, mean alot more.[/QUOTE]

    Infant Mortallity means nothing to me and mine. None of us are having children, so your point is meaningless.

    However, my mother has waited multiple months for Mental Healthcare when she was Suicidal. She was prescribed three different versions (and names) of teh same drug by that system, and almost died. She waited 9 months for a Back Procedure to help her stand again.

    Now, you can tell me again how important newborn mortallity is to health care agin. Still won't make it relevant to what I have been discussing all along, adult health care in a socialist state, and the excessive waits, and poor quality that goes with it.

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]You are wrong about this. I work as a pysician at a VA and i can honestly tell you, for those who come to me on a routine basis, preventive medicine does work. Take for instance diabetics. When they come regularly, they tend to have better controll of their sugars, their BPs, their eyes and feet. This goes along way to preventing alot of the morbidity/mortality assoc with diabetes.[/QUOTE]
    Then if you are a physician you should know you just can't throw up a list of statistics, you must analyze them.
    Preventive medicine is not a one way street. Personal lifestyle and habits are the most important factors in preventive medicine. Facts show the US is the most obese nation on earth. This is why the US is not at the top of these various lists you tout. And I'm sure you are familiar about non-compliance.

  7. #27
    [QUOTE=pauliec]Look, I get what you're saying, but a "successful war" is no different that a "failed" war in terms of violence. Soldiers will still be engaged in crazy firefights, they will still die, they will see their best friends die.

    Could you imagine what it must have been like on the beaches of Normandy. Talk about a freakin' slaughter as soon as your boat landed.

    The military isn't for everyone. If you are unbalanced enough to try to kill yourself in boot camp, you ain't going to make it as a veteran after experiencing real fighting.[/QUOTE]

    i agree completely - the military is a huge sacrifice

    the difference between normandy and Iraq is "what are they dying for?"

    in WWII our country's survival was at stake

    can we say the same about the Iraq conflict?

    and if not, who is to blame for this? how can we keep it from happening again?

  8. #28
    [QUOTE=bitonti]i agree completely - the military is a huge sacrifice

    the difference between normandy and Iraq is "what are they dying for?"

    in WWII our country's survival was at stake

    can we say the same about the Iraq conflict?

    and if not, who is to blame for this? how can we keep it from happening again?[/QUOTE]


    Nevertheless, there's no difference in the actual fighting. If you're on Omaha Beach with 2 legs blown off and missing half an arm, and your best friend is lying dead next to you, you aren't thinking, "Well, at least I hope these injuries help my country." You're probably thinking that you want to get the hell out of there, or, what's left of you.

  9. #29
    [QUOTE=Warfish]Infant Mortallity means nothing to me and mine. None of us are having children, so your point is meaningless.

    However, my mother has waited multiple months for Mental Healthcare when she was Suicidal. She was prescribed three different versions (and names) of teh same drug by that system, and almost died. She waited 9 months for a Back Procedure to help her stand again.

    Now, you can tell me again how important newborn mortallity is to health care agin. Still won't make it relevant to what I have been discussing all along, adult health care in a socialist state, and the excessive waits, and poor quality that goes with it.[/QUOTE]

    The back procedure is likely elective and im willing to bet the waiting time was medically appropriate. I cant tell you , cause i dont know all the facts about her. Emergent procedures are not delayed in the UK. However, She does have options in the UK you know. There are private physicians and insurances outside of the NHS who could see her and speed up the surgery if she likes. The UK is not completely sociaized any more. Has not been for 10 +years. However if you do not have the means to purchase private insurance, you still have access to appropriate health care.

    Please show me concrete factual evidence that socialized medicine is poor quality. I want hard figures that show its inferior, not your families opinions. Are there waits??? Absolutely. For ELECTIVE procedures. People who need emergent angioplasty, bypass, life-saving therapies/surgeries do not wait one second. By the way, you should see the wait one faces for elective angioplasty when he does not have health insurance in the USA...that is , if he ever gets it at all
    Last edited by kennyo7; 02-01-2007 at 10:56 AM.

  10. #30
    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio]Then if you are a physician you should know you just can't throw up a list of statistics, you must analyze them.
    Preventive medicine is not a one way street. Personal lifestyle and habits are the most important factors in preventive medicine. Facts show the US is the most obese nation on earth. This is why the US is not at the top of these various lists you tout. And I'm sure you are familiar about non-compliance.[/QUOTE]

    Of course you cant just throw up lists of statistics. But when you look at all the variables that matter in assessing a health care system, we are doing worse than many socialized systems.

    Non-compliance is present everywhere, not just the USA. Perhaps compliance would be improved with more frequent follow ups, say every 3 months. Of course without insurance, you could not afford that.Obesity is very close to what is present in the UK, yet they are doing better in many of the variables.

    Stop making excuses. Bottom line, our health care system is inadequate, and as the worlds only superpower, we should be doing much better.

  11. #31
    [QUOTE=kennyo7]The back procedure is likely elective and im willing to bet the waiting time was medically appropriate. I cant tell you , cause i dont know all the facts about her. Emergent procedures are not delayed in the UK. However, She does have options in the UK you know. There are private physicians and insurances outside of the NHS who could see her and speed up the surgery if she likes. The UK is not completely sociaized any more. Has not been for 10 +years. However if you do not have the means to purchase private insurance, you still have access to appropriate health care.

    Please show me concrete factual evidence that socialized medicine is poor quality. I want hard figures that show its inferior, not your families opinions. Are there waits??? Absolutely. For ELECTIVE procedures. People who need emergent angioplasty, bypass, life-saving therapies/surgeries do not wait one second. By the way, you should see the wait one faces for elective angioplasty when he does not have health insurance in the USA...that is , if he ever gets it at all[/QUOTE]

    I have given you what I have, hard factual evidence of long wait times and poor quality service to members of my family under the Social Med. System of the UK. You refuse to accept it, and brush off my Mothers agony because it does not suit your political argument.

    I'm sure if I were Dawgg, complaining of slow U.S. VA treatment for a back condition, you'd be 100% in support. Because you are a hypocrite.

    But it makes me wonder, you are a Govt. Doctor (or so you claim). Perghaps you like the idea of Govt. Run Health Care because you couldn't cut it in the lucrative world of Private Practise, and instead wound up a Govt. Doc. Perhaos jealousy of Doctors with more skill than yourself may be blinding your vision here.

    Of course, I have no evidence you are a skillless bottom-of-your-class hack/quack, just like you have no idea what my Mothers condition was, nor the need of treatement, nor her level of pain. But since your ignorance has never stopped you from having an uninformed opinion, I suppose it shouldn't stop me either then.

  12. #32
    [QUOTE=Warfish]I have given you what I have, hard factual evidence of long wait times and poor quality service to members of my family under the Social Med. System of the UK. You refuse to accept it, and brush off my Mothers agony because it does not suit your political argument.

    [B]I dont accept it because this is not evidence of a system that is lacking. Your family is just 10 or 20 people out of a population of millions. Give me real data including infant mortality rates, in hospital death rates, average population survival, disease specific death rates etc that shows socialized medicine is inferior. These are the facts that count, not your family's experience. How is their opinion/experience evidence of a system that does not work???? Guess what peabrain, there are families who go to Sloan Kettering and have bad experiences there. Many wait a long time for an appointment, some dont get one b/c of their insurance. Does their opinion mean that cancer care at Sloan is inferior???? Your logic would suggest it is. But that would be very silly.[/B]

    I'm sure if I were Dawgg, complaining of slow U.S. VA treatment for a back condition, you'd be 100% in support. Because you are a hypocrite.

    [B]Hey, ive complained about the VA. Its not a perfect system. But it does somethings well. Such as Primary Care. [/B]

    But it makes me wonder, you are a Govt. Doctor (or so you claim). Perghaps you like the idea of Govt. Run Health Care because you couldn't cut it in the lucrative world of Private Practise, and instead wound up a Govt. Doc. Perhaos jealousy of Doctors with more skill than yourself may be blinding your vision here.

    [B]Hey I worked in the private sector. I left for many reasons. The private sector is not where the "skilled" docs necessarily are.. Most "skilled physicians" are in academics. In addition to wrking at a VA i also hold an academic title as Assoc. Professor of Medicne. I do clinical research and I publish on a regular basis. I left private practice b/c i missed academics. I also enjoy and take pride in helping our Vets. I didnt like working from 7am-11pm 6 days a week just to make more cash. I dont need it (i married money). Id rather have the academic experience and work regular hours so i can spend time with my family. More skilled docs, sure there are many. But im not jealous one bit. I am doing what i like , make a good salary and have time to spend at home. Whats there to be jealous about??[/B]

    Of course, I have no evidence you are a [B]skillless bottom-of-your-class hack/quack[/B], just like you have no idea what my Mothers condition was, nor the need of treatement, nor her level of pain. But since your ignorance has never stopped you from having an uninformed opinion, I suppose it shouldn't stop me either then.

    [B]More insults?? You can dish it out but cant take it! Kinda like when i called you a fat slob and you acted like a baby saying "im ignoring you" and wont respond anymore. Insult me all you want. I couldnt care less![/B]
    [/QUOTE]
    .

  13. #33
    [QUOTE=kennyo7]You are wrong about this. I work as a pysician at a VA and i can honestly tell you, for those who come to me on a routine basis, preventive medicine does work. Take for instance diabetics. When they come regularly, they tend to have better controll of their sugars, their BPs, their eyes and feet. This goes along way to preventing alot of the morbidity/mortality assoc with diabetes.[/QUOTE]

    Of course they do, but you are speaking of a chronic disease. One where regular check-ups are scheduled. How does a socialized system work better than a private one for this? Also are these type I or II diabetics? If it's the latter, it goes back to personal responsibility to take care of one's self. If it's the former, there are no preventive measures. My son is type I, and there is nothing preventing him from regular check-ups to keep his levels in check.

  14. #34
    I've tried three times now to answer your last post Ken, and I must admit, you have me all but speachless, a rare feat. Suffice it to say, perhaps you may be right in some of the points you make, although clearly I disagree that a Socialist Medical System is the answer. And perhaps you're right that I have been too uncivil in my discussion with you. As the old adage goes, if you have nothing nice to say....

    We see things very differently, and you, of almost all the posters we have in here, get under my skin like no other. And that makes me more rude that I prefer to be in this (or any) forum, and that, if nothing else, I regret.

    Beyond that, I don't think there is much else to say on my part.

  15. #35
    [QUOTE=pauliec]Nevertheless, there's no difference in the actual fighting. \
    [/quote]

    not true - the boys in Iraq wait to get blown up by shrouded guerillas and it's a slow stressful burn. the WWII soldiers had brief periods of intense fighting in battle field conditions.

    [QUOTE=pauliec]If you're on Omaha Beach with 2 legs blown off and missing half an arm, and your best friend is lying dead next to you, you aren't thinking, "Well, at least I hope these injuries help my country." You're probably thinking that you want to get the hell out of there, or, what's left of you.[/QUOTE]

    that's true but you still didn't answer any of my questions. Waging war in a democracy is predicated on willpower of the people. bush went to war without an overwhelming majority of support, now that support has dissipated, militarily speaking, there's no way we can outlast the guerillas... these people have literally nothing else going on, and our supply lines are 6000 miles long. Winston Churchhill one of the greatest military minds in history basically gave up on Bagdhad for the same reasons we will give up on Bagdhad.

    the powers that be should have recognised these conditions before plunging headlong into an unwinnable conflict.

    we as a nation haven't had a straight up victory in war fare for over 60 years. Im not a coward or a commie - im just sick of seeing the country i love on the losing side of things.

  16. #36
    [QUOTE=bitonti]not true - the boys in Iraq wait to get blown up by shrouded guerillas and it's a slow stressful burn. the WWII soldiers had brief periods of intense fighting in battle field conditions.



    that's true but you still didn't answer any of my questions. Waging war in a democracy is predicated on willpower of the people. bush went to war without an overwhelming majority of support, now that support has dissipated, militarily speaking, there's no way we can outlast the guerillas... these people have literally nothing else going on, and our supply lines are 6000 miles long. Winston Churchhill one of the greatest military minds in history basically gave up on Bagdhad for the same reasons we will give up on Bagdhad.

    the powers that be should have recognised these conditions before plunging headlong into an unwinnable conflict.

    we as a nation haven't had a straight up victory in war fare for over 60 years. Im not a coward or a commie -[B] im just sick of seeing the country i love on the losing side of things.[/B][/QUOTE]

    I have posted several times already that America is not against war, it is against [COLOR=Red][B][SIZE=5]LOSING[/SIZE][/B][/COLOR] wars

  17. #37

    Drug company 'hid' suicide link (Privatization at work)

    [QUOTE=OrangeJet]Of course they do, but you are speaking of a chronic disease. One where regular check-ups are scheduled. How does a socialized system work better than a private one for this? Also are these type I or II diabetics? If it's the latter, it goes back to personal responsibility to take care of one's self. If it's the former, there are no preventive measures. My son is type I, and there is nothing preventing him from regular check-ups to keep his levels in check.[/QUOTE]


    [QUOTE]Secret emails reveal that the UK's biggest drug company distorted trial results of an anti-depressant, covering up a link with suicide in teenagers.
    Panorama reveals that GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) attempted to show that Seroxat worked for depressed children despite failed clinical trials.

    And that GSK-employed ghostwriters influenced 'independent' academics.

    GSK told Panorama: "GSK utterly rejects any suggestion that it has improperly withheld drug trial information."

    GSK faces action in the US where bereaved families have joined together to sue the company.

    As a result, GSK has been forced to open its confidential internal archive.

    Karen Barth Menzies is a partner in one of the firms representing many of the families.

    She has examined thousands of the documents which are stored, box upon box, in an apartment in Malibu, California.

    She said: "Even when they have negative studies that show that this drug Seroxat is going to harm some kids they still spin that study as remarkably effective and safe for children."

    GSK's biggest clinical trial of Seroxat on children was held in the US in the 1990s and called Study 329.

    Child psychiatrist Dr Neal Ryan of the University of Pittsburgh was paid by GSK as a co-author of Study 329.

    In 2002 he also gave a talk on childhood depression at a medical conference sponsored by GSK.

    He said that Seroxat could be a suitable treatment for children and later told Panorama reporter Shelley Jofre that it probably lowered rather than raised suicide rates.

    In amongst the archive of emails in Malibu, Shelley was surprised to find that her own emails to Dr Ryan from 2002 asking questions about the safety of Seroxat had been forwarded to GSK asking for advice on how to respond to her.

    She also found an email from a public relations executive working for GSK which said: "Originally we had planned to do extensive media relations surrounding this study until we actually viewed the results.

    "Essentially the study did not really show it was effective in treating adolescent depression, which is not something we want to publicise."

    But the article was published in the Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry which says it ranks as number one in child mental health in the world.

    The editor in chief of the British Medical Journal, Fiona Godlee, said that what she calls the "blind-eye culture of medicine" should be exposed by professionals.

    She has written in response to the Panorama film: "We shouldn't have to rely on investigative journalists to ask the difficult questions.

    "Reputations for sale are reputations at risk. We need to make that risk so high it's not worth taking."


    Read Fiona Godlee's reaction to Panorama
    The Medicine and Healthcare Products Regulatory Authority (MHRA) began a criminal investigation into GSK three years ago but no action has been taken yet.

    A spokesperson told Panorama that the investigation has been given substantial additional resources and remains a high priority.

    Seroxat was banned for under 18s in 2003 after the MHRA, revealed that GSK's own studies showed the drug actually trebles the risk of suicidal thoughts and behaviour in depressed children. [/QUOTE]

    [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/6291773.stm[/url]

  18. #38
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg]Drug company 'hid' suicide link (Privatization at work) [/QUOTE]

    So you want health care AND pharmaceuticals controlled by our inept government? Other industries have lied in the past too, let's let the government control all of those too...they never lie.

  19. #39
    [QUOTE=OrangeJet]So you want health care AND pharmaceuticals controlled by our inept government? Other industries have lied in the past too, let's let the government control all of those too...they never lie.[/QUOTE]

    I want laws with teeth in them to prevent these types of mishaps. W/o gov't intervention (FDA, etc.) these companies would go completely unchecked.

    I can make an argument that they do so now....

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