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Thread: JI gives Rudy the kiss of death

  1. #21
    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY]nothing is what you offer.....major bonehead moves??

    in the course of the events that went down your lame attempt to reach for mistakes are exactly that...[/QUOTE]

    Tell that to the hundreds of NYers who are now suffering from major pulmonary diseases as a result of Rudy opening up downtown too soon. As they strugle with their disease, have their lifespan cut in half and deal with having to use home oxygen and likely to die on a vent you can tell them how Rudy was "America's Mayor" and did no wrong during 9/11 and that these mistakes i made are "insignificant".

    The 8 mistakes i mention are very serious. These are mistakes I dont want the president of the USA making. Of course, coming from someone who thinks Dubya is the epitome of strength and competence in leadership , what else would i expect

  2. #22
    flushingjet
    Guest
    what do you expect from ones who cant calculate that
    a cop retiring in his 40s can draw millions from a pension

    let someone who was there, and worked there tell you some facts:

    right after the 1st crash cops, pa & nypd, and fd were all over the scene, trying to keep order [u]immediately[/u]

    that includes managing thousands of people in, around and under the complex including subway PATH and bus passengers, and street traffic loaded with cars buses and trucks

    a brilliant job of it in my opinion considering the [u]thousands[/u] ranging
    from concerned loved ones to rubberneck idiots rushing TO instead of FROM the scene and swarming nearby

    giuliani , his staff and hundreds of pd/fd came to the scene
    within minutes-thats real leadership.

    thats what new yorkers and americans should expect
    same when w came with the bullhorn on the smoldering pile

    nothing less

    not like when clinton didnt show the 1st WTC go around in '93
    although bubba did come down to ground zero to pick up bereaved chicks a la "Animal House"

    could you imagine the public outcry if our
    public servants didnt serve us?

    headlines from our commie 4th estate/NYT:
    "cowardly mayor hid in city hall bunker"

    "cops & firemen, citing their poor odds of surviving burning
    collapsing skyscrapers, strand and doom hundreds"

    giuliani, kerik and bratton were extremely competent in their jobs
    to the benefit of NY City--id love to hear how they werent

    if you dont understand why rudys a 9/11 hero or
    a great mayor, you dont.
    or you wont.
    hatred for rudy cant change that fact

    nothing to do with his love life, old family history, etc
    that libs claim are best left as private
    and not public matters for their ilk
    Last edited by flushingjet; 04-19-2007 at 05:26 PM.

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]Tell that to the hundreds of NYers who are now suffering from major pulmonary diseases as a result of Rudy opening up downtown too soon. As they strugle with their disease, have their lifespan cut in half and deal with having to use home oxygen and likely to die on a vent you can tell them how Rudy was "America's Mayor" and did no wrong during 9/11 and that these mistakes i made are "insignificant".

    The 8 mistakes i mention are very serious. These are mistakes I dont want the president of the USA making. Of course, coming from someone who thinks Dubya is the epitome of strength and competence in leadership , what else would i expect[/QUOTE]
    You know of hundreds of patients who were working or living downtown that have contracted pulmonary disease so severe that "their lifespan cut in half" and are "likely to die on a vent"? What medical journal was this in? Or are you referring to those who worked on the actual site? Your post implies you are talking about people who were not working on site but merely working or living downtown.

  4. #24
    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio]You know of hundreds of patients who were working or living downtown that have contracted pulmonary disease so severe that "their lifespan cut in half" and are "likely to die on a vent"? What medical journal was this in? Or are you referring to those who worked on the actual site? Your post implies you are talking about people who were not working on site but merely working or living downtown.[/QUOTE]

    Both groups are included in ongoing studies conducted at Mt. SInai

  5. #25
    [QUOTE=Jets Babe]where do you get this information from?![/QUOTE]

    Im a physician and i work with pulmonologists who refer some of these patients to me. There are no published studies yet, but Mt Sinai has a major program studying the effects on both workers at the site and those living in close proximity.

    Why are you so shocked?

  6. #26
    [QUOTE=kennyo7]Im a physician and i work with pulmonologists who refer some of these patients to me. There are no published studies yet, but Mt Sinai has a major program studying the effects on both workers at the site and those living in close proximity.

    Why are you so shocked?[/QUOTE]


    I think it's fair to question anecdotal evidence, when you are apparently the only one on JI who has access to it. I don't disbelieve you, I just think it's a fair question.

  7. #27
    [QUOTE=flushingjet]what do you expect from ones who cant calculate that
    a cop retiring in his 40s can draw millions from a pension

    let someone who was there, and worked there tell you some facts:

    right after the 1st crash cops, pa & nypd, and fd were all over the scene, trying to keep order [u]immediately[/u]

    that includes managing thousands of people in, around and under the complex including subway PATH and bus passengers, and street traffic loaded with cars buses and trucks

    a brilliant job of it in my opinion considering the [u]thousands[/u] ranging
    from concerned loved ones to rubberneck idiots rushing TO instead of FROM the scene and swarming nearby

    giuliani , his staff and hundreds of pd/fd came to the scene
    within minutes-thats real leadership.

    thats what new yorkers and americans should expect
    same when w came with the bullhorn on the smoldering pile

    nothing less

    not like when clinton didnt show the 1st WTC go around in '93
    although bubba did come down to ground zero to pick up bereaved chicks a la "Animal House"

    could you imagine the public outcry if our
    public servants didnt serve us?

    headlines from our commie 4th estate/NYT:
    "cowardly mayor hid in city hall bunker"

    "cops & firemen, citing their poor odds of surviving burning
    collapsing skyscrapers, strand and doom hundreds"

    giuliani, kerik and bratton were extremely competent in their jobs
    to the benefit of NY City--id love to hear how they werent

    if you dont understand why rudys a 9/11 hero or
    a great mayor, you dont.
    or you wont.
    hatred for rudy cant change that fact

    nothing to do with his love life, old family history, etc
    that libs claim are best left as private
    and not public matters for their ilk[/QUOTE]

    Fine you think he is a "hero" (a term used too loosely in my opinion) then please answer the 8 fuk ups he made that i listed. Dont start with your tirade that is based purely on opinion.

    As for you being an "expert" on 9/11 because you simply were there....thats a crock of $hit . Its like saying im an expert on animal behavior because i visit the zoo every year. You dont know anything more about 9/11 that anyone else on this board. The fact that you were there when it happened, while unfortunate and terribly sad means nothing in terms of being an "expert" .

  8. #28
    [QUOTE=Jets Babe]Rudy is a LEADER. :yes:
    Thanks for telling your story.[/QUOTE]
    Yeeeeeahhhhh!!
    Yipppeee!
    RUDY is A Leader!!!
    Well if Jet Babe and Toilet Jet say so, it must be true!!!

  9. #29
    [QUOTE=Jets Babe]yeah, ok. :rolleyes:

    if it was a big deal, it would have been published.[/QUOTE]

    You obviously are clueless about medical research. :yes:

    Incomplete studies are not published.

  10. #30
    [QUOTE=Jets Babe]exactly, theyre incomplete. nothing has been proven yet. youre wrong, because you have no proof.[/QUOTE]

    Want some studies here:
    [QUOTE][B]The World Trade Center disaster and the health of workers: five-year assessment of a unique medical screening program[/B].Herbert R, Moline J, Skloot G, Metzger K, Baron S, Luft B, Markowitz S, Udasin I, Harrison D, Stein D, Todd A, Enright P, Stellman JM, Landrigan PJ, Levin SM.
    Department of Community and Preventive Medicine, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York, NY 10029, USA. [email]robin.herbert@mssm.edu[/email]

    BACKGROUND: Approximately 40,000 rescue and recovery workers were exposed to caustic dust and toxic pollutants following the 11 September 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center (WTC). These workers included traditional first responders, such as firefighters and police, and a diverse population of construction, utility, and public sector workers. METHODS: To characterize WTCrelated health effects, the WTC Worker and Volunteer Medical Screening Program was established. This multicenter clinical program provides free standardized examinations to responders. Examinations include medical, mental health, and exposure assessment questionnaires; physical examinations; spirometry; and chest X rays. RESULTS: Of 9,442 responders examined between July 2002 and April 2004, 69% reported new or worsened respiratory symptoms while performing WTC work. Symptoms persisted to the time of examination in 59% of these workers. Among those who had been asymptomatic before September 11, 61% developed respiratory symptoms while performing WTC work. Twenty-eight percent had abnormal spirometry; forced vital capacity (FVC) was low in 21%; and obstruction was present in 5%. Among nonsmokers, 27% had abnormal spirometry compared with 13% in the general U.S. population. Prevalence of low FVC among nonsmokers was 5-fold greater than in the U.S. population (20% vs. 4%). Respiratory symptoms and spirometry abnormalities were significantly associated with early arrival at the site. CONCLUSION: WTC responders had exposure-related increases in respiratory symptoms and pulmonary function test abnormalities that persisted up to 2.5 years after the attacks. Longterm medical monitoring is required to track persistence of these abnormalities and identify late effects, including possible malignancies. Lessons learned should guide future responses to civil disasters.

    PMID: 17185275 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE[/QUOTE]

    [QUOTE][B]World Trade Center -- "Sarcoid Like" Granulomatous Pulmonary Disease in New York City Fire Department Rescue Workers.[/B]Izbicki G, Chavko R, Banauch GI, Weiden MD, Berger KI, Aldrich TK, Hall C, Kelly KJ, Prezant DJ.
    Pulmonary Division, Montefiore Medical Center, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Bronx, NY.

    Background Previous reports suggest sarcoidosis occurs with abnormally high frequency in firefighters. We sought to determine whether exposure to World Trade Center (WTC) "Dust" during the collapse and rescue/recovery effort increased the incidence of sarcoidosis or "sarcoid-like" granulomatous pulmonary disease (SLGPD). Methods During the five years post-WTC, enrollees in the Fire Department of New York's (FDNY) WTC Monitoring and Treatment Programs who had chest radiographs suggestive of sarcoidosis underwent evaluation, including: chest CT imaging, pulmonary functions, provocative challenge and biopsy. Annual incidence rates were compared to the 15 years pre-WTC. Results Post-WTC, pathologic evidence consistent with new-onset sarcoidosis was found in 26 patients -- all with intra-thoracic adenopathy and 6 (23%) with extra-thoracic disease. Thirteen were identified during the first year post-WTC (incidence rate of 86/100,000) and 13 during the next four years (average annual incidence rate of 22/100,000; as compared to 15/100,000 during the 15 years pre-WTC). Eighteen of 26 (69%) had findings consistent with asthma; eight of 21 (38%) agreeing to challenge testing had airway hyperreactivity (AHR), findings not seen in pre-WTC FDNY sarcoidosis patients. Conclusion Post-WTC the incidence of sarcoidosis or SLGPD was increased among FDNY rescue workers. This new information about the early onset of WTC-SLGPD and its association with asthma/AHR has important public health consequences for disease prevention, early detection and treatment following environmental/occupational exposures.[/QUOTE]

    [QUOTE][B]The World Trade Center residents' respiratory health study: new-onset respiratory symptoms and pulmonary function.[/B]Reibman J, Lin S, Hwang SA, Gulati M, Bowers JA, Rogers L, Berger KI, Hoerning A, Gomez M, Fitzgerald EF.
    Department of Medicine, Division of Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine, New York University School of Medicine, New York, New York 10016, USA. [email]reibmj01@gcrc.med.nyu.edu[/email]

    The destruction of the World Trade Center (WTC) on 11 September 2001 in New York City resulted in the massive release of pulverized dust and combustion products. The dust and smoke settled in the surrounding area, which encompassed a large residential community. We hypothesized that previously normal residents in the community surrounding the former WTC would have an increased incidence of persistent respiratory symptoms and abnormalities in screening spirometry. A hybrid cross-sectional and retrospective cohort study using a symptom-based questionnaire and onsite screening spirometry in residents in an exposed area and in a control area was performed 12 +/- 4 months after the collapse. Surveys were analyzed from 2,812 residents. New-onset respiratory symptoms were described by 55.8% of residents in the exposed area, compared with 20.1% in the control area after the event. Persistent new-onset symptoms were identified in 26.4 versus 7.5% of residents in the exposed area versus control area, respectively. No differences in screening spirometry between the groups were detected. A small pilot study suggested the possibility of an increase in bronchial hyperresponsiveness in exposed participants with persistent symptoms. [B]The data demonstrate an increased rate of new-onset and persistent respiratory health effects in residents near the former WTC compared with a control population[/B].[/QUOTE]


    Now go back to your tanning or whatever you are majoring in at UCF

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]Both groups are included in ongoing studies conducted at Mt. SInai[/QUOTE]
    But the hundreds you talk of, are they rescue workers, or are there hundreds of people who just work in the area who are being severely effected? You also give a picture that hundreds of ordinary citizens will develop [B]severe[/B] COPD by having been in the area but not on site of ground zero in the weeks following 9/11. I am talking about the worst case scenarios you portrayed in your first post. Would be interested to here of the Sinai findings in this regard.

  12. #32
    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio]But the hundreds you talk of, are they rescue workers, or are there hundreds of people who just work in the area who are being severely effected? You also give a picture that hundreds of ordinary citizens will develop [B]severe[/B] COPD by having been in the area but not on site of ground zero in the weeks following 9/11. I am talking about the worst case scenarios you portrayed in your first post. Would be interested to here of the Sinai findings in this regard.[/QUOTE]


    A lot of people live and work in lower Manhattan. There would be a legitemate gripe here if all of those thousands became ill.

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]Want some studies here:







    Now go back to your tanning or whatever you are majoring in at UCF[/QUOTE]
    These studies discuss rescue workers, and recovery workers, not those on Wall Street or working or living in the vicinity, except for the last paper. The last study was a small pilot study hinting at some possible respiratory findings in this population. Doesn't state anything regarding the severity of these symptoms. To extrapolate from this study that "hundreds" of citizens will develop severe COPD and become vent dependent is a big stretch in my opinion based upon the information provided.

  14. #34
    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio]But the hundreds you talk of, are they rescue workers, or are there hundreds of people who just work in the area who are being severely effected? You also give a picture that hundreds of ordinary citizens will develop [B]severe[/B] COPD by having been in the area but not on site of ground zero in the weeks following 9/11. I am talking about the worst case scenarios you portrayed in your first post. Would be interested to here of the Sinai findings in this regard.[/QUOTE]

    The evidence is that people who live in the nearby neighborhood as well as those who work or go to school near the neighborhood (ie Stuyvesant HS students) are developing all kinds of pulmonary problems. Not just COPD but there is an inordinate number of cases of Interstitial Lung Diseases(IPF, UIP, AIP, and Sarcoid like Pulm disease) . The studies are not complete and im not familiar with the actual numbers but this is quite startling. As you know Interstitial Lung Disease is a life-long progressive disease with tremendous morbidity(not to mention mortality).

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=pauliec]A lot of people live and work in lower Manhattan. There would be a legitemate gripe here if all of those thousands became ill.[/QUOTE]
    Yes, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that ordinary citizens will be effected in the numbers and severity that Ken has portrayed. I am not talking specifically about the rescue and recovery workers, but rather the people from the area.

  16. #36
    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio]These studies discuss rescue workers, and recovery workers, not those on Wall Street or working or living in the vicinity, except for the last paper. The last study was a small pilot study hinting at some possible respiratory findings in this population. Doesn't state anything regarding the severity of these symptoms. [B]To extrapolate from this study that "hundreds" of citizens will develop severe COPD and become vent dependent is a big stretch in my opinion based upon the information provided[/B].[/QUOTE]
    Again much of the works are not yet published. The data im hearing from puulmonary friends is quite startling.

  17. #37
    [QUOTE=Jets Babe]all of these articles are about the rescue working being exposed to it, and getting sick.

    WELL OF COURSE THEY WOULD....they were right in it. its a part of their job, and its very unfortunate that they had to get sick from the air, but thats what happens when you work in soot saving people. did you expect them to not save the people there because the air wasnt clean?[/QUOTE]

    You forgot to read(or purposely ignored) the last study which is about people living/working in that area. Perhaps if your Hero Rudy didnt declare that neighborhood safe so soon, and allowed the DEP to evaluate and set standards for safety of the privately owned apartments instead of dishing that job out to the profit oriented landlords we wouldnt be seeing these problems

  18. #38
    [QUOTE=Jets Babe]all you hear is bull**** from your friend....
    -your friends said rudy's an ass
    -your friends say people are dying from the air


    its a big crock to me.[/QUOTE]

    Sun too hot?
    What my friends have stated is supported by early findings in studies i showed you above. See the 3rd article. They do teach reading at UCF ?

    Why are you so friggin abnoxious. We get it you love Rudy. You want to lik his bunghole!! thats great, but some of us do not. Some of us question his actions. Including many NYPD and FDNY and wives/children of loved ones lost who feel Rudy's incompetence and stubborness played a role

  19. #39
    [QUOTE=Jets Babe]youre talking about hundreds of people "dying" and getting their lives "cut in half". where does it say that?[/QUOTE]

    People with interstitial lung disease are almost NEVER Cured. Their diseas is progressive. They become pulmonary criples their life spans are cut in half!!!

    Listen its obvious you have no medical knowledge whatsoever, as noted in your silly comments, so please do us a favor and let the adults discuss.

  20. #40
    how is a thrice divorced, bald, pro choice pro gay wearing a yankees cap or drag going to win the republican vote in southern states?

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