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Thread: Ultra-Green: Radical 100-MPG Toyota Prius in the Works for 2009

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    Ultra-Green: Radical 100-MPG Toyota Prius in the Works for 2009

    [url]http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109981[/url]

    [QUOTE]TOKYO Expect something amazing from the next Toyota Prius like fuel economy that pushes past the 100-mpg barrier.

    Due in two years as a 2009 model, the next Prius is set to be an evolution, company sources say. The hybrid will retain the same basic 1.5-liter hybrid drivetrain. But Toyota is now on a mission to do two things: drive the economy ratings skyward, and cut the associated costs by 20-30 percent.

    Toyota was rocked when news seeped out that Honda was planning a low price Fit hybrid for 2008, with the price differential just 200,000 yen (some $1,700) more than the regular gasoline version. So work on the next Prius has redoubled to slash R&D costs and halve Toyota's current hybrid differential of 500,000 yen (some $4,240) to compete.

    Honda is currently winning the hybrid image war in Japan with the tiny Insight coupe, which manages 102 mpg in Japan's standard fuel cycle. The Prius is just a whisker behind at 99 mpg (35 km/l). But now comes news that Toyota is determined to hit 40 km/l (113 mpg) with the next Prius. Of course, these are Japanese fuel-economy figures, which will not translate directly to real-world driving conditions in the U.S.

    Sources say the next Prius will also be able to run longer and faster in pure electric mode, up to a sustained 30 mph, which will significantly extend its zero-emissions range.

    What this means to you: The Prius right now is massive in North America. Imagine what the next one will be like, with even better economy and value.[/QUOTE]

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    Better change the design... it looks like crap

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    [QUOTE=BrooklynBound]Better change the design... it looks like crap[/QUOTE]

    Sadly, I have to agree. Regardless of MPG, if it cannot compete in:

    A. Looks/Styling
    B. Performance (and I don't mean MPG "Performance")
    and C. Size/Capacity

    It will remain exactly what it is today, a very limited market niche vehicle driven by the small percenatge of Americans who REALLY care/believe in the dire predictions of Climate Change Theory.

    ......sadly, I cannot seem to locate a simple "US Auto Sales by Model" listing, but from Wikipedia I see that the Prius sold....

    [QUOTE=Wikipedia]In March 2007 Prius sales in the U.S. were 19,156 units [2] up 133.2% from the prior year [3]
    In February 2007 Prius sales in the U.S. were Prius' best month ever, posting 12,227 units, an 87% increase over February 2006 results. [4]
    In January 2007 Prius sales in the U.S. reached 8,299 units, its best January showing yet, and up 8.4% from January 2006 (outselling all Volvos), although production increased to the point where Priuses were available unsold in dealer lots. Incentives and advertising were also introduced about this time. [5]
    As of August 31, 2006, 570,383 units have been sold worldwide, with Toyota cumulative sales of over 750,000 hybrids.[40]
    As of June, 2006, over 60,000 Priuses have been sold in California.
    As of June 7, 2006, 500,000 Priuses have been sold worldwide, 266,212 in US alone.
    As of February 2006, the waiting time in Palo Alto, California, USA, was over 6 months.
    U.S. sales were 53,991 in 2004 and doubled in 2005 to 107,897, about 60% of the world total of 180,000[41]
    In January 2005, the Prius became available in South Africa.
    In June 2004, the Wall Street Journal reported that the backlog for 2004 Priuses has reached 22,000 in the US.
    As of April 2004, the expected delivery time for a Prius in the Netherlands is one year.
    As of March 2004, the waiting list at a Sonoma County, California dealership was over 100 people long.
    As of February 16, 2004, Toyota USA is not taking new internet orders for the 2004 Prius.
    As of December 14, 2003, the waiting time in Dallas, Texas, USA, was 6 months.
    US sales of the Prius began in August, 2000. US sales totalled 15,556 in 2001, and 20,119 in 2002.[42] [/QUOTE]

    Without any other reference, it's hard for me to judge (who would have though a simple auto sales by model chart would be so hard to fine, eh?) So if anyone has or knows of such a listing of "top=sellers in the US", feel free to post it.

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    [QUOTE=BrooklynBound]Better change the design... it looks like crap[/QUOTE]

    Seriously... why do these eco-cars end up some of the ugliest things out there?

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    [QUOTE=Warfish]Sadly, I have to agree. Regardless of MPG, if it cannot compete in:

    A. Looks/Styling
    B. Performance (and I don't mean MPG "Performance")
    and C. Size/Capacity

    It will remain exactly what it is today, a very limited market niche vehicle driven by the small percenatge of Americans who REALLY care/believe in the dire predictions of Climate Change Theory.[/QUOTE]

    fish you are forgetting category D. price of gas

    the cost of gasoline went up 8 cents last week and almost 70 cents on the year to date

    this isn't about climate change or any specific issue, it should be more about common sense

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]fish you are forgetting category D. price of gas

    the cost of gasoline went up 8 cents last week and almost 70 cents on the year to date

    this isn't about climate change or any specific issue, it should be more about common sense[/QUOTE]
    and yet, you don't break even on these hybrids until gas costs $5/gal. people buy it to make a statement - nothing more.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]fish you are forgetting category D. price of gas

    the cost of gasoline went up 8 cents last week and almost 70 cents on the year to date

    this isn't about climate change or any specific issue, it should be more about common sense[/QUOTE]


    Common sense would dictate that we would be using Turbo Diesel's here just like in Europe which would be giving us 10 to 15 MPH more on the current cars we are driving.

    Unfortunately since their emissions aren't that good we don't have them.

    Part of the problem we have with having a serious energy policy is the environmental lobby. We no longer have a serious nuclear energy program, we don't drill for oil or natural gas like we should, we don't even refine anymore and import gas at increasing levels. The environmental lobby has even killed wind and hydro electric power in this country.

    When the environmental lobby figures out the battery disposal problem that's going to be created if everyone switched to hybrid cars, battery disposal taxes will take that option off the table.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]fish you are forgetting category D. price of gas

    the cost of gasoline went up 8 cents last week and almost 70 cents on the year to date

    this isn't about climate change or any specific issue, it should be more about common sense[/QUOTE]

    Sadly my frined, I am not talking about what anything "should" be. I am talking about what IS.

    And what I posted is 100% dead on, and will remain so until the price of gas rises high enough to supplant those other factors on the midns of buyers. When will that happen? Who knows, but at $3.00 a gallon or so, I still couldn;t care less, and never make decisions based on gas cost. Perhaps some do alreayd, but I am willing to be most do not.

    Maybe at $5.00 a gaoolon, more will. Who knows.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish]
    Maybe at $5.00 a gaoolon, more will. Who knows.[/QUOTE]

    the number is closer to $4 a gallon. if gas hits 4 we'll start seeing changes in society that have nothing to do with environmentalism.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]the number is closer to $4 a gallon. if gas hits 4 we'll start seeing changes in society that have nothing to do with environmentalism.[/QUOTE]

    And you base that opinion on.....?

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    [QUOTE=Warfish]And you base that opinion on.....?[/QUOTE]

    I read it in FT, i'd have to look up the exact link. The point is that the breaking point you refer to is closer than people imagine.

    And for the record lower gas consumption is not just about climate change. It's about national security, overall health (asthma is a multi billion dollar strain on the economy) etc. There are implicit and explicit costs. What's the cost of waging endless war in the middle east?

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]I read it in FT, i'd have to look up the exact link. The point is that the breaking point you refer to is closer than people imagine.

    And for the record lower gas consumption is not just about climate change. It's about national security, overall health (asthma is a multi billion dollar strain on the economy) etc. There are implicit and explicit costs. What's the cost of waging endless war in the middle east?[/QUOTE]

    Guess I'll have to see it to believe it my friend.

    At today's price, gas for my old Taurus costs ~$42 a tank, and I need about three tanks every two weeks ($252 a month).

    At $4 a Gallon, that changes to $56 a tank, $336 a month, for a change of $84 a month. Annoying, yes. Lifestyle altering? Not for me, no.

    At $5 a Gallon, it moves up to $70 a tank, $420 a month, for a change of $168 over current prices. Still liveable, but perhaps enough by that point to start some to change or buy more efficient cars. Frankly though, I doubt I would change even then. Dropping $30K on a new Prius or #35K on some Hybrid Honda is too much cost. Going from no carpayment to $375-$425 a month, to save what.....maybe $50.00 a month in gas cost?

    And moving isn't an option either. Rent where I am is anywhere from $900 to $1000 for a 2-bedroom townhome. That same townhome would cost $1500+ a month in most of the towns closer in, also not a great economic option.

    I am not doubting your spource Bit, as I am sure it is vastly better than my personal numbers, but all I can say is even $5.00/Gallon Gasoline will not really effect my life, other than the annoyed resignation that I have to pay it, and my other options are limited.

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    even if all that is true, anything over 3 starts to affect the decision making made by businesses with fleet vehicles... over 4 it's economically feasible to get oil out of soft sand and shale... over 5 fuggetaboutit

    yeah sure there will be people out there who wouldn't care if it was 10 bucks a gallon but in general the majority of the population and businesses have a lower tolerance for gas price hikes.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]even if all that is true, anything over 3 starts to affect the decision making made by businesses with fleet vehicles... over 4 it's economically feasible to get oil out of soft sand and shale... over 5 fuggetaboutit

    yeah sure there will be people out there who wouldn't care if it was 10 bucks a gallon but in general the majority of the population and businesses have a lower tolerance for gas price hikes.[/QUOTE]

    So what changes are you then predicting for $4/Gallon, then $5/Gallon and Beyond?

    What specific widespread changes do you see occuring?

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    it really depends if our gov't can get out of the choke hold currently applied by big oil lobby. if they can (that's a big if) we will see more mass transit, the electric plug-in cars, more hybrids, tax breaks to encourage better MPG, better land planning, in general everything that the current administration is against.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]it really depends if our gov't can get out of the choke hold currently applied by big oil lobby. if they can (that's a big if) we will see more mass transit, the electric plug-in cars, more hybrids, tax breaks to encourage better MPG, better land planning, in general everything that the current administration is against.[/QUOTE]

    See, you lost me again.....

    If gas is expensive enough on it's own to engender change, why would the Govt. have anything to do with it? Would people not change of their own accord, without such things as tax breaks? And wouldn't car makers see the prfit margin for new Hybrids/Electics due to high fuel costs, and hence make them and sell them? Wouldn't people choose to live close in in cities instead of in suburbs on theior own, incresing that lands value and setting exmaple for future development, rather that having land "planners' react to such changes down the road?

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    [QUOTE=Warfish]See, you lost me again.....

    If gas is expensive enough on it's own to engender change, why would the Govt. have anything to do with it? [/QUOTE]

    because our government uses warfare as a method of attempting to control gas prices in the long term.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]because our government uses warfare as a method of attempting to control gas prices in the long term.[/QUOTE]

    Um, how does that relate to any of what you posted above? :confused:

    Are you saying we'll just wage endless unceasing War to keep gasoline prices below $3.00? Even if (as we should all expect) a Democrat wins in 2008?

    That doesn't make much sense Bit. If what you wrote above is true, then People will move over without any Govt. intervention. Why would someone need a Tax break to svae themselves money AND do the "right thing" eh?

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    [QUOTE=Warfish] Why would someone need a Tax break to svae themselves money AND do the "right thing" eh?[/QUOTE]

    it's funny i don't remember you making such a fuss when the gov't was issuing SUV tax breaks in 04. must have been a necessary sacrifice for the war on terror.

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    pfffft.

    It only changes who you pay. Unless you're using nuclear-generated electricity or solar-generated electricity, you're going to pay your local utility instead of the gas station.

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