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Thread: Senate reaches (BS) Immigration deal

  1. #1
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    Senate reaches (BS) Immigration deal

    [SIZE=5]Lawmakers close in on immigration deal [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=4]Compromise deal would legalize millions of illegal immigrants[/SIZE]
    The Associated Press
    Updated: 1:26 p.m. ET May 17, 2007

    WASHINGTON - A bipartisan group of senators reached agreement with the White House Thursday on an immigration overhaul to grant quick legal status to millions of illegal immigrants already in the U.S. and fortify the border against new ones.

    One of the key negotiators, Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., said he expects President Bush to endorse it.

    The deal came after weeks of painstaking closed-door negotiations that brought the most liberal Democrats and the most conservative Republicans together with Bush's Cabinet officers to produce a highly complex measure that carries heavy political consequences.

    'Point system' breakthrough
    It set the stage for what promises to be a bruising battle next week in the Senate on one of Bush's top non-war priorities.

    The key breakthrough came when negotiators struck a bargain on a so-called "point system" that would for the first time prioritize immigrants' education and skill-level over family connections in deciding how to award green cards.

    The proposed agreement would allow illegal immigrants to come forward and obtain a "Z visa" and - after paying fees and a $5,000 fine and returning to their home countries - ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years.


    They could come forward right away to claim a probationary card that would let them live and work legally in the U.S., but could not begin the path to permanent residency or citizenship until border security improvements and a high-tech worker identification program were completed.

    A new temporary guest worker program would also have to wait until those so-called "triggers" had been activated.


    Kennedy earlier described Thursday as "D-Day" in the talks, saying it was likely the last chance for a compromise before senators scattered for a three-day weekend.

    If no deal had emerged, Senate Democrats were to vote Monday evening to bring up an immigration measure that passed last year over the objections of most Republicans, who have said they will block it. That would be a highly partisan start to the immigration debate, which divides the two parties and exposes fissures within their ranks.

    Even with the bipartisan agreement, the immigration debate could easily devolve into a free-for-all in the unruly Senate.

    Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., has said he wants to complete a bill before Memorial Day, and President Bush says he wants to sign one by summer's end.

  2. #2
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    this is a freaking joke regardless of what side you stand on this issue

    how could they realistically think that any iollegal immigrant will declare themselves and volunteer to go back home and pay a $5000 fine and then start an 8 to 13 year citizenship process????

    the reality is that these people know that noo ne can afford to do that and will not do that, then they can hunt illegals down and get rid of them 'permanently'

    its so transparent its not funny, why masquerade taht you want these people to step forward so you look like we are giving them a chance knowing full well that you really want them out

    if taht is teh case, dont be hypocritical and just say there will be no amnesty and all illegals must immediately leave because that ius basically what this proposal is saying

  3. #3
    I agree this seems like a half measure.

    What's needed (aside from the Mexican gov't to get its sh!t together) is a guest-worker program to regulate future immigration, and this doesn't address that. Going forward, there are ways to a better job of regulating who comes in and the conditions they live in while they are here.

    I frankly don't think there's much anyone can do to get rid of the illegals who are already here. Economically, it's impossible for business to part with them. And hunting them down en masse seems both fascist and logistically implausible. There will never be sufficient political support for that kind of step, and --given the population trends-- there will be stronger opposition with every passing day.

    There's a much greater chance to accomplish something meaningful with the immigrants who are not here yet, and this compromise doesn't go there.

  4. #4
    blah blah blah...more horse$hit from more disgusting inept politicians. Don't believe it for one more second, another round of amnesty is right around the corner.

    Of course, what's the point, they refuse to enforce immigration laws as it is. Granting amnesty is about as symbolic as Earth Day.

    Press charges against all the elected officials/and others, for being complicit in the crime that is illegal immigration. Impeach the bastards and maybe they'll start taking action.

    You want socialised health care? The debate is over, and you already have it. Don't believe me? Go check out any emergency room in any of your southern border states. Guess who pays for that?

    Guest worker program? Sounds like a great idea to me. Just make sure they pick up their union cards as they come across the border.

  5. #5
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    [QUOTE=frostlich]blah blah blah...more horse$hit from more disgusting inept politicians. Don't believe it for one more second, another round of amnesty is right around the corner.

    Of course, what's the point, they refuse to enforce immigration laws as it is. Granting amnesty is about as symbolic as Earth Day.

    Press charges against all the elected officials/and others, for being complicit in the crime that is illegal immigration. Impeach the bastards and maybe they'll start taking action.

    You want socialised health care? The debate is over, and you already have it. Don't believe me? Go check out any emergency room in any of your southern border states. Guess who pays for that?

    Guest worker program? Sounds like a great idea to me. Just make sure they pick up their union cards as they come across the border.[/QUOTE]

    Really don't get what Americans have against a socialised health care. Perhaps it is the sheer volume issue (over 300 million compared to 35 million in Canada).

  6. #6
    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Really don't get what Americans have against a socialised health care. Perhaps it is the sheer volume issue (over 300 million compared to 35 million in Canada).[/QUOTE]

    Honestly, I really don't have much against socialised health care. There are plenty of arguments for and against it. On this message board I have no doubt you'll hear more arguments against it.

    The point I was trying to make is the folks here that do pay health insurance inevitably pay(via higher premiums) for the free health care the illegals receive when they show up to the emergency room. THIS contributes to crappy HMO's and the deterioration of the system that exists here now. Like I said, free health care already exists in this country, its just one class of people paying for it all.

  7. #7
    If you want to stop the illegals from coming into the states.......stop providing them with jobs!!!!!

    If there are no jobs available to them , they will not come.
    How about targeting those who are hiring(exploiting) illegals. Why not hit these employers with a serious fines and jail time if they hire illegal immigrants

  8. #8
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    [QUOTE=frostlich]Honestly, I really don't have much against socialised health care. There are plenty of arguments for and against it. On this message board I have no doubt you'll hear more arguments against it.

    The point I was trying to make is the folks here that do pay health insurance inevitably pay(via higher premiums) for the free health care the illegals receive when they show up to the emergency room. THIS contributes to crappy HMO's and the deterioration of the system that exists here now. Like I said, free health care already exists in this country, its just one class of people paying for it all.[/QUOTE]


    Gotcha.

  9. #9
    [QUOTE=kennyo7]If you want to stop the illegals from coming into the states.......stop providing them with jobs!!!!!

    If there are no jobs available to them , they will not come.
    How about targeting those who are hiring(exploiting) illegals. Why not hit these employers with a serious fines and jail time if they hire illegal immigrants[/QUOTE]

    I agree, I don't believe in the jobs we won't do crap, but I also believe there should be a Great Wall of China type structure on both borders.

  10. #10
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    [QUOTE=Mean Bro Green]this is a freaking joke regardless of what side you stand on this issue

    how could they realistically think that any iollegal immigrant will declare themselves and volunteer to go back home and pay a $5000 fine and then start an 8 to 13 year citizenship process????

    the reality is that these people know that noo ne can afford to do that and will not do that, then they can hunt illegals down and get rid of them 'permanently'

    [B]its so transparent its not funny, why masquerade taht you want these people to step forward so you look like we are giving them a chance knowing full well that you really want them out[/B]

    if taht is teh case, dont be hypocritical and just say there will be no amnesty and all illegals must immediately leave because that ius basically what this proposal is saying[/QUOTE]

    a lot of people think this plan is 2 soft and it is an amnisty pass.

    Holy disagreements batman :eek:

  11. #11
    [QUOTE=kennyo7]If you want to stop the illegals from coming into the states.......stop providing them with jobs!!!!!

    If there are no jobs available to them , they will not come.
    How about targeting those who are hiring(exploiting) illegals. Why not hit these employers with a serious fines and jail time if they hire illegal immigrants[/QUOTE]

    Have you ever walked through any kitchen in a restaurant? Ever seen a team of gardeners? How many of thsoe people were American? This economy needs these people because they are doing jobs americans refuse to do.

  12. #12
    [QUOTE=Mean Bro Green][SIZE=5]Lawmakers close in on immigration deal [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=4]Compromise deal would legalize millions of illegal immigrants[/SIZE]
    The Associated Press
    Updated: 1:26 p.m. ET May 17, 2007

    WASHINGTON - A bipartisan group of senators reached agreement with the White House Thursday on an immigration overhaul to grant quick legal status to millions of illegal immigrants already in the U.S. and fortify the border against new ones.

    One of the key negotiators, Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., said he expects President Bush to endorse it.

    The deal came after weeks of painstaking closed-door negotiations that brought the most liberal Democrats and the most conservative Republicans together with Bush's Cabinet officers to produce a highly complex measure that carries heavy political consequences.

    'Point system' breakthrough
    It set the stage for what promises to be a bruising battle next week in the Senate on one of Bush's top non-war priorities.

    The key breakthrough came when negotiators struck a bargain on a so-called "point system" that would for the first time prioritize immigrants' education and skill-level over family connections in deciding how to award green cards.

    The proposed agreement would allow illegal immigrants to come forward and obtain a "Z visa" and - after paying fees and a $5,000 fine and returning to their home countries - ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years.


    They could come forward right away to claim a probationary card that would let them live and work legally in the U.S., but could not begin the path to permanent residency or citizenship until border security improvements and a high-tech worker identification program were completed.

    A new temporary guest worker program would also have to wait until those so-called "triggers" had been activated.


    Kennedy earlier described Thursday as "D-Day" in the talks, saying it was likely the last chance for a compromise before senators scattered for a three-day weekend.

    If no deal had emerged, Senate Democrats were to vote Monday evening to bring up an immigration measure that passed last year over the objections of most Republicans, who have said they will block it. That would be a highly partisan start to the immigration debate, which divides the two parties and exposes fissures within their ranks.

    Even with the bipartisan agreement, the immigration debate could easily devolve into a free-for-all in the unruly Senate.

    Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., has said he wants to complete a bill before Memorial Day, and President Bush says he wants to sign one by summer's end.[/QUOTE]

    Mean Bro.. i work in immigrtion and I can tell you that you are overreacting. Going home means at most two weeks, and that is to pick up their visa. As for the 5000 dollar fine, that is nothing compared to the money not paid in taxes while living in America. This is a compromise, not an amnesty, and I dont see how 5000 should be the ultimate deterrent.

  13. #13
    [QUOTE=Mean Bro Green]this is a freaking joke regardless of what side you stand on this issue

    how could they realistically think that any iollegal immigrant will declare themselves and volunteer to go back home and pay a $5000 fine and then start an 8 to 13 year citizenship process????

    the reality is that these people know that noo ne can afford to do that and will not do that, then they can hunt illegals down and get rid of them 'permanently'

    its so transparent its not funny, why masquerade taht you want these people to step forward so you look like we are giving them a chance knowing full well that you really want them out

    if taht is teh case, dont be hypocritical and just say there will be no amnesty and all illegals must immediately leave because that ius basically what this proposal is saying[/QUOTE]

    Also, 8 to 13 years to obtain citizenship is quite normal for anyone. It takes 5 years to become a citizen, and before you can do that, it takes time to get a green card.

    For example, if an Indian national with a masters degree started applying for a green card today, it could take up to four years just to get the green card, and once they get that, it would be another 5 years for them to bercome a citizen.

    After this person has paid for an education, paid all the fees to the government, paid taxes, are you telling me illegals should be given preferential treatment?

    I am not calling you out, but I just think its important for people to understand the basic perameters before they make judgements. There are plenty of provisions which certainly need improvements and arguably discriminate agaisnt certain illegals, so its important you focus your ill will on the right things. Especially someone like you who has strong ties to a community who can be greatly benefited by these provisions. You are a very intellegent poster, but this is an issue I am an expert on and based on your comments, I know you are not focusing on the real problems, which is quite normal by the way.

    If you would like more information and would like to discuss this privately, please PM me at anytime.
    Last edited by mallamalla; 05-18-2007 at 11:56 AM.

  14. #14
    [QUOTE=mallamalla]Have you ever walked through any kitchen in a restaurant? Ever seen a team of gardeners? How many of thsoe people were American? This economy needs these people because they are doing jobs americans refuse to do.[/QUOTE]



    These people are doing jobs that Americans refuse to do for the wages they are being paid. In many cases (construction) wages are actually being lowered by people who hire people who are here illegally. People who hire anyone who is here illegally should be fined.

  15. #15
    [QUOTE=mallamalla]Also, 8 to 13 years to obtain citizenship is quite normal for anyone. It takes 5 years to become a citizen, and before you can do that, it takes time to get a green card.

    For example, if an Indian national with a masters degree started applying for a green card today, it could take up to four years just to get the green card, and once they get that, it would be another 5 years for them to bercome a citizen.

    After this person has paid for an education, paid all the fees to the government, paid taxes, are you telling me illegals should be given preferential treatment?...

    If you would like more information and would like to discuss this privately, please PM me at anytime.[/QUOTE]

    You hit on quite an interesting point. The U.S. has seemed to thrive in the past by attracting the best and brightest minds from around the world to attend our universities. It really worked out for us when some of those folks chose to stay here, and the U.S. could maintain a healthy tech edge over the rest of the world. My understanding is the number of visas granted since 2001 has decreased dramatically, and the brains are going to China and India instead of here. Really bad news if that's the case.

    As far as the illegals doing "the jobs Americans refuse to do..." there should be a clarification to that. I see so much construction and landscaping labor being performed by illegals that it's mind boggling. To sum it up, I believe a more accurate statement would be, "Illegals are doing the jobs Americans refuse to do for illegally low wages." If you're going to make an exception for some business owners to engage in illegal acitivity, at the expense of legit business owners, then where does it stop? What, if I sell black market electronics do I get a free pass because "I'm providing the low cost gear that legit businesses refuse to provide?"

  16. #16
    [QUOTE=mallamalla]Have you ever walked through any kitchen in a restaurant? Ever seen a team of gardeners? How many of thsoe people were American? This economy needs these people because they are doing jobs americans refuse to do.[/QUOTE]

    So Americans are refusing to do all types of construction jobs, landscaping jobs, some factory jobs. I call BS. The employers just don't want to pay what theses jobs would really cost them without illegals. If you can't afford to run your business without illegal employees, you suck as a business man, time to find a new career.

  17. #17
    You're right, this "deal" IS a crock of BS.....

    What they should be doing, if they felt rule of Law and the will of the People had ANY integrity or relevance, is as follows:

    1. Track down and Deport every last Illegal Alien.
    2. Secure our Borders, Ports, Rail Lines and Airports.
    3. Fine the Living Hell out of Any and Every Company or Individual found employing Illegal Aliens.
    4. ONLY THEN......should they perform a Complete and utter overhaul of Immigration Policy to more intelligently import the workers and people this Country needs, while weeding out criminals and other undesirables. Doing so before you have control over the process (and the border) is assinine.

    What this bill is is nothing more than a fancy Amnesty Program, that fixes nothing, rewards illegal activity, promotes further illegal activity, leaves our border defenseless and leaves this nation exactly where it is today, unable to control one of the most basic of reasons why a National Government Exists.

    It's too bad for America that both our Political Parties have been bought and sold years and years ago by Special Interests and the Desire for more votes. But then again, that IS Par for the course in the US today.

  18. #18
    [QUOTE=frostlich]You hit on quite an interesting point. The U.S. has seemed to thrive in the past by attracting the best and brightest minds from around the world to attend our universities. It really worked out for us when some of those folks chose to stay here, and the U.S. could maintain a healthy tech edge over the rest of the world. My understanding is the number of visas granted since 2001 has decreased dramatically, and the brains are going to China and India instead of here. Really bad news if that's the case.

    As far as the illegals doing "the jobs Americans refuse to do..." there should be a clarification to that. I see so much construction and landscaping labor being performed by illegals that it's mind boggling. To sum it up, I believe a more accurate statement would be, "Illegals are doing the jobs Americans refuse to do for illegally low wages." If you're going to make an exception for some business owners to engage in illegal acitivity, at the expense of legit business owners, then where does it stop? What, if I sell black market electronics do I get a free pass because "I'm providing the low cost gear that legit businesses refuse to provide?"[/QUOTE]

    Agreed. The US is getting killed by only giving limited visas and H-1B's to skilled workers. India and China are destroying us.

    And I also agree with you about the wage part. But its a lot less drastic than you think. A legal worker making ten dollars an hour is essentially making as much as an illegal worker making 6 dollars an hour off the books. Employers are clearly to blame because they have zero obligation to the illegal worker, making them much more preferable.

  19. #19
    [QUOTE=Warfish]You're right, this "deal" IS a crock of BS.....

    What they should be doing, if they felt rule of Law and the will of the People had ANY integrity or relevance, is as follows:

    1. Track down and Deport every last Illegal Alien.
    2. Secure our Borders, Ports, Rail Lines and Airports.
    3. Fine the Living Hell out of Any and Every Company or Individual found employing Illegal Aliens.
    4. ONLY THEN......should they perform a Complete and utter overhaul of Immigration Policy to more intelligently import the workers and people this Country needs, while weeding out criminals and other undesirables. Doing so before you have control over the process (and the border) is assinine.

    What this bill is is nothing more than a fancy Amnesty Program, that fixes nothing, rewards illegal activity, promotes further illegal activity, leaves our border defenseless and leaves this nation exactly where it is today, unable to control one of the most basic of reasons why a National Government Exists.

    It's too bad for America that both our Political Parties have been bought and sold years and years ago by Special Interests and the Desire for more votes. But then again, that IS Par for the course in the US today.[/QUOTE]

    Warfish in '08

  20. #20
    [QUOTE=WJGC]So Americans are refusing to do all types of construction jobs, landscaping jobs, some factory jobs. I call BS. The employers just don't want to pay what theses jobs would really cost them without illegals. If you can't afford to run your business without illegal employees, you suck as a business man, time to find a new career.[/QUOTE]

    I am not disagreeing with you. But if all of these people were deported tomorrow, our economy would greatly suffer.

    I live in the city, and I would say that 90% of restaurants hire illegal workers. Even the chic, most expensive restaurants do this.

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