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Thread: George W. Bush: Conservative or Traitor to the Values of Conservativism?

  1. #1
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    George W. Bush: Conservative or Traitor to the Values of Conservativism?

    The question today is a complex one. Is George W. Bush, President of the USA and Republican, a Conservative? Or, through his actions and lack therof, a traitor to the core beleifs and ideals of Conservativism??

    Yes or No, and your reasons why. And yes, Liberals are welcome to answer as well.

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    He made government bigger with the unnecessary creation of the Dept. of Homeland Security. A huge contradiction to conservative values.

    This immigration plan is another.

  3. #3
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    He's not much of a classic conservative, but perhaps he is the poster boy of the "neoconservative" movement. I'm not about that at all.

    Source is right, under Bush the bureaucratic government continues to grow and his immigration policy is weak at best.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish]The question today is a complex one. Is George W. Bush, President of the USA and Republican, a Conservative? Or, through his actions and lack therof, a traitor to the core beleifs and ideals of Conservativism??

    Yes or No, and your reasons why. And yes, Liberals are welcome to answer as well.[/QUOTE]


    Traitor is a strong word. But he has certainly gone away from the fiscal responsibility that is core to the conservative platform.

    He has also gone FAR from his original core campaign message of being a uniter.

    I think he has turned out to be a poor leader, that has been led astray, but I would come short of calling him a traitor to the party.

  5. #5
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    Bush betrayed the conservative movement. He's a traitor to the values of conservatism.

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    Other than the tax cuts and his attemp at partial privitizing of Social Security he has been far from a conservative. Campaign Finance Reform, Weak ass immigration policies, forgetting how to veto any spending bill, Prescription drug benefits, twenty years ago we would see a (D) next his name. That goes for the majority of the republican party.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]Bush betrayed the conservative movement. He's a traitor to the values of conservatism.[/QUOTE]


    Maybe not betrayed. More like used. Say things to them in the run up to the election to drive them to the poll and then ignore them and give them lip service when in power.

    The guy pretends he is from Texas and has all the Texans convinced he is no damn Yankee...New Haven, Texas.

    Karl rove is a self admitted agnostic. Enough said.

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    George W. Bush is, in many ways, the least conservative president in the history of the United States:

    Fiscal conservatism: He presided over the largest spending increase in U.S. Government history. While this alone wouldn't disqualify him as a conservative (Reagan was the second-most profligate spender ever) his binge is particularly abhorrent considering the spending totals were massively padded by unprecedented, corrupt amounts of pork he allowed the GOP congress to claim on his watch. Yes, he cut taxes, but his refusal to address spending in proportion makes him more reckless than conservative on that issue. There is no worse record on spending, ever, than Bush's.

    Limited-government conservatism: He created a new, largely ineffective and possibly useless bureaucracy in the Dept. of Homeland Security. He authorized unprecedented government intrusions into the private lives of Americans, not only the unconstitutional warrantless wiretapping program and the assault on habeas corpus, but also activist nonsense such as the Terry Schiavo intervention. There used to be libertarian Republicans. Thanks to George Bush, libertarians are no longer a sugnificant constituency. Somewhere, Barry Goldwater is nauseous.

    Now, I suppose he gets higher scores from social conservatives on issues like gay rights and civil rights (positions I personally disagree with), but the same voters probably loathe his immigration stance anyhow, so at best he gets a middling grade on those issues, even after years of relentless pandering.

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    Traitor? No. He tried to be too many things to too many people; a nice idea alone the "uniter" lines, but ultimately, unrealistic. He should have stuck with his core constituency(ies).

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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola]George W. Bush is, in many ways, the least conservative president in the history of the United States:

    Fiscal conservatism: He presided over the largest spending increase in U.S. Government history. While this alone wouldn't disqualify him as a conservative (Reagan was the second-most profligate spender ever) his binge is particularly abhorrent considering the spending totals were massively padded by unprecedented, corrupt amounts of pork he allowed the GOP congress to claim on his watch. Yes, he cut taxes, but his refusal to address spending in proportion makes him more reckless than conservative on that issue. There is no worse record on spending, ever, than Bush's.

    Limited-government conservatism: He created a new, largely ineffective and possibly useless bureaucracy in the Dept. of Homeland Security. He authorized unprecedented government intrusions into the private lives of Americans, not only the unconstitutional warrantless wiretapping program and the assault on habeas corpus, but also activist nonsense such as the Terry Schiavo intervention. There used to be libertarian Republicans. Thanks to George Bush, libertarians are no longer a sugnificant constituency. Somewhere, Barry Goldwater is nauseous.

    Now, I suppose he gets higher scores from social conservatives on issues like gay rights and civil rights (positions I personally disagree with), but the same voters probably loathe his immigration stance anyhow, so at best he gets a middling grade on those issues, even after years of relentless pandering.[/QUOTE]

    Tougher than I'd be, but I agree with most of this.

    Aside from cutting taxes and nominating Roberts and Alito, not much he's done has been conservative by my standards....I'd give him a C- so far, as a grade.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]Bush betrayed the conservative movement. He's a traitor to the values of conservatism.[/QUOTE]


    As did H.W. and Reagan... there aren't many traditional conservatives in government anymore

    the GOP got off the traditional conservative path decades ago, so while he doesn't fit traditional conservative traits, he fits well with their new traits

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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]I'd give him a C- so far, as a grade.[/QUOTE]


    That's one hell of a curve to get him up to C-!

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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Tougher than I'd be, but I agree with most of this.

    Aside from cutting taxes and nominating Roberts and Alito, not much he's done has been conservative by my standards....I'd give him a C- so far, as a grade.[/QUOTE]

    I suppose you are correct to give him credit for picking conservative judges. (I prefer judges in the Ginsburg mold myself, but my preferences are irrelevent to this topic.) But it also must be noted that he tried to put political hack Harriet Miers on the Supreme Court, which highlights yet another of his failings as a professed conservative: His emphasis on chronyism over credentials.

    Once upon a time, conservatives believed in meritocracy, which was their primary argument against quotas and affirmative action programs. I personally didn't always agree with these conservative arguments against these programs, but I respected their basis.

    Under Bush, we have: a failed attempt to put a total hack on the highest court in the land; an incompetent former head of the Arabian Horse Assn. running federal disaster response (disastrously) and the ongoing debacle in the Justice Dept, among other things.

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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola]I suppose you are correct to give him credit for picking conservative judges. (I prefer judges in the Ginsburg mold myself, but my preferences are irrelevent to this topic.) But it also must be noted that he tried to put political hack Harriet Miers on the Supreme Court, which highlights yet another of his failings as a professed conservative: His emphasis on chronyism over credentials.

    Once upon a time, conservatives believed in meritocracy, which was their primary argument against quotas and affirmative action programs. I personally didn't always agree with these conservative arguments against these programs, but I respected their basis.

    Under Bush, we have: a failed attempt to put a total hack on the highest court in the land; an incompetent former head of the Arabian Horse Assn. running federal disaster response (disastrously) and the ongoing debacle in the Justice Dept, among other things.[/QUOTE]

    I thought his emphasis was on incompetence... and incompetents must stick together because I see your point on chronyism :D

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    [QUOTE=Tanginius]I thought his emphasis was on incompetence... and incompetents must stick together because I see your point on chronyism :D[/QUOTE]

    Incompetence is neither a conservative nor a liberal trait, unfortunately.

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    [QUOTE=sourceworx]He made government bigger with the unnecessary creation of the Dept. of Homeland Security. A huge contradiction to conservative values.

    This immigration plan is another.[/QUOTE]
    I would agree with these as huge departures from conservatism. Except that I would criticize his willingness to let the government grow to be more broad, not just confined to homeland security.

    His conservatism lies mainly along his ties to religious beliefs (and those that flow from his power base with the religious right). Second would be his non-spending economic beliefs (tax rate rationalization and free market).

    So a quick scorecard
    Economic - Positive on taxes, enpowerment of private sector, negative on gov't spending.
    Social - certainly a true conservative (too much so for my tastes) with allegience to religious right.
    Security - conservative on reaction to 9/11 and perceived threat, weak as can be on immigration.

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    [QUOTE=Piper]
    So a quick scorecard
    Economic - Positive on taxes, enpowerment of private sector, negative on gov't spending.
    Social - certainly a true conservative (too much so for my tastes) with allegience to religious right.
    Security - conservative on reaction to 9/11 and perceived threat, weak as can be on immigration.[/QUOTE]


    I would argue that --while he certainly has conservative social views-- the means in which he has pursued them have been extremely liberal (in the activist sense, not as in the Democratic party).

    The Terry Schiavo case was one of the most outrageous government overreaches of all time. To try and tell a husband what he can or cannot do to his braindead wife's feeding tube --and to fly across the country to sign an emergency bill from congress to do so-- goes against everything conservatism stands for.

    Some of this is not his fault: The social conservatives generally do not believe in small-government, and favor enormous government presence in people's private lives, and it is hard to walk the line between both constituencies.

    On security, 9/11 tended to redraw typical party lines: During the Clinton years, the right --and Bush, during the 2000 race-- tended to bemoan nation-building efforts, saying the military was only to "fight and win wars." He's gone on to spend more time nation-building than any president since the aftermath of WWII.

    I do not believe there is anything conservative about his record on individual rights related to the War on Terror.

  18. #18
    flushingjet
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    a) as been discussed ad nauseaum before, w's no conservative
    ...and if you're depending on our inhouse lib-mo-tards
    to define what a conservative is & isnt for you youre too darn lazy

    b) as usual, those same lib-mo-tards who cant recall what they had for breakfast this morning forgot all about the raison d'etre for the dept of homeland security and for much of the increase in govt spending....9/11

    but what do you expect, they never met a gun control
    law, oddball sexual preference, illegal alien,
    enemy combatant, government handout,
    prison closure or foreign culture or law they didnt like

    the real traitors to this country trying to call bush a traitor...
    thats a hot one

    now if you want to cherry nit pick &
    b!tch about how incompetent and
    ineffective DHS, FEMA is you might as well
    include the entire government....

    it wouldnt have any economic effect
    to transfer a large % of
    our fellow americans from one dole queue
    (govt bureaucracy job)
    to another (the real welfare line)

    i prefer alito by far, but as for miers being a total hack,
    she didnt get a chance to prove it,
    but why is that?....because shes not a hot milf like kimba wood?
    because calvin trillin says so?

    the charges of cronyism are pretty funny coming from those who prefer ruth buzzi ginsberg or janet reno, who are not only behind the door prizes
    in the looks dept but complete, national disgraces in the legal arena
    to boot....guess what? anyone who wins elections, gets to put some
    of their friends and advisers in high places

    just imagining what youll say when w + condi run off after w finishes
    his term

  19. #19
    flushingjet
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola]I would argue that --while he certainly has conservative social views-- the means in which he has pursued them have been extremely liberal (in the activist sense, not as in the Democratic party).

    The Terry Schiavo case was one of the most outrageous government overreaches of all time. To try and tell a husband what he can or cannot do to his braindead wife's feeding tube --and to fly across the country to sign an emergency bill from congress to do so-- goes against everything conservatism stands for.

    Some of this is not his fault: The social conservatives generally do not believe in small-government, and favor enormous government presence in people's private lives, and it is hard to walk the line between both constituencies.

    On security, 9/11 tended to redraw typical party lines: During the Clinton years, the right --and Bush, during the 2000 race-- tended to bemoan nation-building efforts, saying the military was only to "fight and win wars." He's gone on to spend more time nation-building than any president since the aftermath of WWII.

    I do not believe there is anything conservative about his record on individual rights related to the War on Terror.[/QUOTE]

    Conservatives are not in favor of conserving the lives of innocents.
    Gotcha.

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet]a) as been discussed ad nauseaum before, w's no conservative
    ...and if you're depending on our inhouse lib-mo-tards
    to define what a conservative is & isnt for you youre too darn lazy

    b) as usual, those same lib-mo-tards who cant recall what they had for breakfast this morning forgot all about the raison d'etre for the dept of homeland security and for much of the increase in govt spending....9/11

    [/QUOTE]

    The non-military spending increase under Bush is also off the charts --roughly 2x non-military spending under Bill Clinton-- so this is not just about 9/11.

    If you include that, his record is even worse.
    Last edited by nuu faaola; 05-30-2007 at 06:47 PM.

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