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Thread: Gaza Mess: Iraq in 2 years if we leave?

  1. #1
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    Gaza Mess: Iraq in 2 years if we leave?

    Was reading Ralph Peters this morning. Seems the AQ nutjobs weren't satisfied with what they did to the Golden Dome mosque, so they demolished the minarets yesterday. Conventional wisdom says this is to get the Shias to retaliate and create an even bigger mess.

    Scarier still is that the civil war in the Gaza between Hamas and Fatah is a coming attraction for what Iraq would be in a few years if we left (only a much larger fustercluck ;) ).

    Intelligent opinions? (please don't post partisan nonsense or crazy sh!t - thanks)

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    Iraq is a mess already, the only thing that keeps the people under control is a iron hand. So far as a Gaza there are so many outside agitators the Saudis, the Iranians and god knows who else Israel can sit back and let them kill each other. What a bunch of lunatics.

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    If we leave Iraq any time soon, there is a good chance that the region will fall into further chaos. However, after 4.5 years of battle, hundreds of billions of dollars spent, countless hours spent training and equiping security forces, thousands of our own dead, and installing a democractic government in the country, we have done all we can realistically do.

    The key here is personal responsibility, and until the people of Iraq take on this role and attitude, our presence in the country will have little longterm effect. On that same note, our personal responsibility is to take care of our own priorities and to keep our own citizens safe.

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    Iraq is already in a Civil War, which we are restraining somewhat with our presence. Gaza looks more and more like a Civil War every day. And Lebanon is almost certainly headed for one, too, as the people there are tiring of Syrian interference in their affairs.

    The entire region is destabilized to an unprecedented degree. I think we ought to get working on finding energy sources other than oil, and fast.

  5. #5
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    [QUOTE=parafly]On that same note, our personal responsibility is to take care of our own priorities and to keep our own citizens safe.[/QUOTE]

    At current, ensuring a stable and reliable flow of Oil for the United States IS a priority. You may not like that fact, but that does not change it.

    Until such time as an efficient, reliable, cheap fuel-alternative is developed/invented and mass produced for common availability, the simple truth is that the U.S. has no choice but to remain involved in the Oil rich Middle East.

    There are alternatives, of course, like Nuclear Power, Wind Power, opening up domestic exploration and refining and the Global Warming Believers best friend, public funding of Alternate-Fuel research.

    However, all of that requires a somewhat unified Congress and a willing American populace. Till we have these things, and implement them, the Middle East, and it's Oil, will remain of major strategic and economic importance.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish]At current, ensuring a stable and reliable flow of Oil for the United States IS a priority. You may not like that fact, but that does not change it.

    Until such time as an efficient, reliable, cheap fuel-alternative is developed/invented and mass produced for common availability, the simple truth is that the U.S. has no choice but to remain involved in the Oil rich Middle East.

    There are alternatives, of course, like Nuclear Power, Wind Power, opening up domestic exploration and refining and the Global Warming Believers best friend, public funding of Alternate-Fuel research.

    However, all of that requires a somewhat unified Congress and a willing American populace. Till we have these things, and implement them, the Middle East, and it's Oil, will remain of major strategic and economic importance.[/QUOTE]

    Excellent post.

    The nuke-em-all crowd consistently downplays how essentially middle eastern oil is to our economy at this point. It is our lifeblood, and the reason we have been so tolerant of governments like Saudi Arabia who create many of our problems by opppressing their people and funding radical madrassas that are practically terrorist factories.

    Finding alternative energy sources --for all its obvious environmental benefit-- is first and foremost a national security strategy.

    Once we have independence, we can (1) take a harder line with people like the Saudis and (2) indirectly force them to diversify their economy and create the sort of middle class that will inevitably reduce the number of people willing to blow themselves up.

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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola]Excellent post.

    The nuke-em-all crowd consistently downplays how essentially middle eastern oil is to our economy at this point. It is our lifeblood, and the reason we have been so tolerant of governments like Saudi Arabia who create many of our problems by opppressing their people and funding radical madrassas that are practically terrorist factories.

    Finding alternative energy sources --for all its obvious environmental benefit-- is first and foremost a national security strategy.

    Once we have independence, we can (1) take a harder line with people like the Saudis and (2) indirectly force them to diversify their economy and create the sort of middle class that will inevitably reduce the number of people willing to blow themselves up.[/QUOTE]


    Alternative energy and environmental benefits are highly unlikely to happen. This is one of the big lies of the current debate in this country. Chances are most of our alternative energy will come from coal, oil shale, oil tar and nuclear. All of these alternatives which would make us far less dependent on foreign oil will have far reaching environmental impact, some worse and some different than extracting light oil from the ME.

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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]Alternative energy and environmental benefits are highly unlikely to happen. This is one of the big lies of the current debate in this country. Chances are most of our alternative energy will come from coal, oil shale, oil tar and nuclear. All of these alternatives which would make us far less dependent on foreign oil will have far reaching environmental impact, some worse and some different than extracting light oil from the ME.[/QUOTE]

    Nuclear can be clean --and very efficient-- if handled right. (My biggest concern there is securing the plants from terrorists, as they would be obvious targets and would need to be well guarded. I'd want the military --not the TSA high school dropouts-- in charge.)

    Also there are some in-the-works technologies such as fuel cells which are clean and show a ton of promise (I think either Honda or Toyota has a hydrogen-powered car in the works using these). There is also a lot more that can be done with solar (I am in favor of tax breaks/incentives for people who install panels on their homes) that could have a significant impact on in-home energy consumption if applied on a wide scale.

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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola][B]Iraq is already in a Civil War, which we are restraining somewhat with our presence.[/B] Gaza looks more and more like a Civil War every day. And Lebanon is almost certainly headed for one, too, as the people there are tiring of Syrian interference in their affairs.

    [B]The entire region is destabilized to an unprecedented degree[/B]. I think we ought to get working on finding energy sources other than oil, and fast.[/QUOTE]

    So do you want to continue to be an advocate of our pullout?

    Some might say out presence in Korea is merely to keep the South Koreans from annihilating the North Koreans.

    Pulling out would almost certainly lead to Civil War. The U.S. would hardly be the genesis of this Civil War. The century long hatred would.

    Imagine what Iraq would be without all our pesky patrols to keep the Shia and Sunni someone in check.

  10. #10
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    [QUOTE=PFSIKH]Imagine what Iraq would be without all our pesky patrols to keep the Shia and Sunni someone in check.[/QUOTE]


    [IMG]http://www.internetweekly.org/images/saddam_harley_2.jpg[/IMG]

    [B][SIZE=3]Hola mi amigos!![/SIZE][/B]

    It's me! Saddam!

    Long time no see, eh? Check out these sweet babes I got down here in Hell. Pretty nice, no? Heaven can keep those 72 virgins for all I care...the whores in hell are some of the best in the underworld!!

    Anyway...

    I know what you mean about dealing with those pesky Muslims in my old country. Shia...Sunni...whatever! I was their El Presidente for over 30 years an I could never tell the difference. Aye-aye-aye..with that damn call to prayer call crap at 5:30 in the god damned morning. I shoulda tossed a couple of Scuds at that Golden Dome while I was still around.

    Well...I guess its not my problem anymore, huh? Its your albatross now suckers. Here. Ill hold the pin. You hold the grenade. [B]HaHaHaHaHaHa!!!![/B]

    Peace. I gots to go mix me some phat tracks with Hitler...
    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySurE2S_djQ[/url]



    [IMG]http://www.bloguez.com/uploads/guenouni_1DJ_Saddam_Funny_Picture_.jpg[/IMG]
    Last edited by PlumberKhan; 06-17-2007 at 09:41 PM.

  11. #11
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola]Nuclear can be clean --and very efficient-- if handled right. (My biggest concern there is securing the plants from terrorists, as they would be obvious targets and would need to be well guarded. I'd want the military --not the TSA high school dropouts-- in charge.)

    Also there are some in-the-works technologies such as fuel cells which are clean and show a ton of promise (I think either Honda or Toyota has a hydrogen-powered car in the works using these). There is also a lot more that can be done with solar (I am in favor of tax breaks/incentives for people who install panels on their homes) that could have a significant impact on in-home energy consumption if applied on a wide scale.[/QUOTE]


    BMW has a hydrogen powered car in fact it's both gas and hydrogen. After reading up on it the only problem is after you use up the factory equiped hydrogen power, you can't get a refill until 2000 and ?. And since it's equiped with both it weighs more than a gas only which after you use up the initial fill can only be refilled with gas. Not exactly viable yet.

    The reality is we can save more energy with conservation today than with any of the alternate energy that's available and save money at the same time. To waste government seed money on new technology when the public won't even support saving energy now with gas prices at historically high levels seems a bit like flushing money down the toilet. Neither the Dems or the Republicans even support raiseing CAFE standards to very conservative and reachable levels. We built one of the great nuclear facilities on LI which never started up because the public was afraid.

    The reality is we are taking oil out of the ME and elsewhere because it's still cheap and more efficient than any alternatives.

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]BMW has a hydrogen powered car in fact it's both gas and hydrogen. After reading up on it the only problem is after you use up the factory equiped hydrogen power, you can't get a refill until 2000 and ?. And since it's equiped with both it weighs more than a gas only which after you use up the initial fill can only be refilled with gas. Not exactly viable yet.

    The reality is we can save more energy with conservation today than with any of the alternate energy that's available and save money at the same time. To waste government seed money on new technology when the public won't even support saving energy now with gas prices at historically high levels seems a bit like flushing money down the toilet. Neither the Dems or the Republicans even support raiseing CAFE standards to very conservative and reachable levels. We built one of the great nuclear facilities on LI which never started up because the public was afraid.

    The reality is we are taking oil out of the ME and elsewhere because it's still cheap and more efficient than any alternatives.[/QUOTE]

    That's true -- today.

    But by increasing our investment in research, tomorrow can come a lot faster.

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=PFSIKH]So do you want to continue to be an advocate of our pullout?

    Some might say out presence in Korea is merely to keep the South Koreans from annihilating the North Koreans.

    Pulling out would almost certainly lead to Civil War. The U.S. would hardly be the genesis of this Civil War. The century long hatred would.

    Imagine what Iraq would be without all our pesky patrols to keep the Shia and Sunni someone in check.[/QUOTE]


    For what it's worth, I am not an advocate of a total troop pullout from Iraq. I think we should have a smaller force designed to keep whatever semblance of stability is possible, possibly based on the Korea model (after we divide the country in three, that is). It is a terrible outcome, but the best we can hope for at this point.

    My main issue at the moment is that we have 150,000 troops there with no military objective. There is nothing to win. No possibility of killing off all the terrorists. There's no mission.

    The troops are just there getting shot at.

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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola] I think we ought to get working on finding energy sources other than oil, and fast.[/QUOTE]
    And in the meantime tap the Alaskan keg.

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    [QUOTE=quantum]Was reading Ralph Peters this morning. Seems the AQ nutjobs weren't satisfied with what they did to the Golden Dome mosque, so they demolished the minarets yesterday. Conventional wisdom says this is to get the Shias to retaliate and create an even bigger mess.

    Scarier still is that the civil war in the Gaza between Hamas and Fatah is a coming attraction for what Iraq would be in a few years if we left (only a much larger fustercluck ;) ).

    Intelligent opinions? (please don't post partisan nonsense or crazy sh!t - thanks)[/QUOTE]


    Actually the most current reports is that the bombing of the minarets was not by AQ but rather was an iside job by Iraqi Forces.

    To say that the "the civil war in the Gaza between Hamas and Fatah is a coming attraction for what Iraq would be in a few years" is quite an inaccurate statement. Iraq is already in the midst of a civil war and the level of violence is far greater than that in Gaza. The more accurate statement would be that we should worry that Gaza might become like Iraq.

    I disagree with the notion that if we leave things in Iraq would become much worse in the long run. Perhaps in the short run it will. But whether we stay or not the outcome in Iraq will be the same as long as there is hatred and division down Iraq's ethnic groups. Our presence wont change that. Its a civil war. Outside forces dont end civil wars unless the fighting factions are willing to end the violence and come to a compromise.

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    the only thing that will solve the middle east problem is if we...

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    Isn't it great everyone still ignores Afghanistan. The Taliban is slowly taking their spot back.

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    [QUOTE=cr726]Isn't it great everyone still ignores Afghanistan. The Taliban is slowly taking their spot back.[/QUOTE]
    And this displeases you? The Taliban didn't do 9/11. Why the hell did we invade?

  19. #19
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    That is the point. Afghanistan is the one country everyone agreed we should of attacked. We haven't given it the attention it deserves and slowly but surely the country is going back to the way it was before we invaded.

    Is this Clinton's fault too?

    [QUOTE=sackdance]And this displeases you? The Taliban didn't do 9/11. Why the hell did we invade?[/QUOTE]

  20. #20
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    This thread is two years old, Iraq is already like Gaza....

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