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Thread: Ron Paul excluded in Iowa

  1. #141
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet]NO on prohibiting oil drilling & development in ANWR
    yet NO on keeping moratorium on drilling for oil offshore?[/QUOTE]


    I would of figured that you would be a supporter of opening ANWAR for drilling.

    I pretty much personally against it. Some of my family lives up there, I have gone to visit them a few times...Alaska is freaking unbelievably beautiful. I would hesitate marring a pretty much otherwise pristine landscape with oil equipment...

    But I haven't any plans to visit them anytime soon...and with the way gas keeps creeping up there, I might overlook a bit if it resulted in cheaper gas. Besides, I'm sure a lot can be done to keep the landscape the way it is and drill for oil at the same time.

    And I don't think my uncle would mind at all...he works as an electrician for some oil subcontractor up there. He used to work for the phone company but got tired of it...


    BTW...which votes are you referring to that point to the fact that Ron Paul is a protectionist?

  2. #142
    flushingjet
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan]I would of figured that you would be a supporter of opening ANWAR for drilling.

    I pretty much personally against it. Some of my family lives up there, I have gone to visit them a few times...Alaska is freaking unbelievably beautiful. I would hesitate marring a pretty much otherwise pristine landscape with oil equipment...

    But I haven't any plans to visit them anytime soon...and with the way gas keeps creeping up there, I might overlook a bit if it resulted in cheaper gas. Besides, I'm sure a lot can be done to keep the landscape the way it is and drill for oil at the same time.

    And I don't think my uncle would mind at all...he works as an electrician for some oil subcontractor up there. He used to work for the phone company but got tired of it...


    BTW...which votes are you referring to that point to the fact that Ron Paul is a protectionist?[/QUOTE]

    these
    [url="http://www.ontheissues.org/TX/Ron_Paul_Free_Trade.htm"]http://www.ontheissues.org/TX/Ron_Paul_Free_Trade.htm[/url]

  3. #143
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet]these
    [url="http://www.ontheissues.org/TX/Ron_Paul_Free_Trade.htm"]http://www.ontheissues.org/TX/Ron_Paul_Free_Trade.htm[/url][/QUOTE]


    Seriously bro....Central America can go f*** itself. So can Chili for that matter. They can stop paying tariffs when I stop paying income tax. And sales tax. And property tax. And gas tax. And universal service charges. And Social Security Tax. And Medicare Tax. And State Income Tax. And Liquor Tax. And Telephone federal excise tax. And Vehicle License Registration Tax. And Watercraft registration Tax. And School Tax. And Workers Compensation Tax. And Toll Bridge Taxes.


    How about a free trade agreement with the citizens of our own country. Lets do something to benefit the people that live here as opposed to company's run out of third world countries. How about our government worry about not reaming the a**es of its own populace. I have to pay taxes on everything I freaking buy, but I'm supposed to feel bad for some foreign company having to pay a tariff.

    Well boo-freaking-ho. Pay or don't sell your crap here. Quite frankly I'm getting sick of all the cheap sh*t these foreign companies make anyway. Id rather pay a little extra and get some quality items...you remember quality, right? That's what American companies used to be world renowned for. We set the bar for excellence. What have we become? A country that imports a bunch of plastic crap from China. Complete with lead paint for our kids.
    Last edited by PlumberKhan; 06-26-2007 at 07:07 PM.

  4. #144
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    Some people are so ideologically bent on free trade that they fail to realize that too much of it can be detrimental to the social order.

  5. #145
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    [QUOTE=JetsCrazey]Some people are so ideologically bent on free trade that they fail to realize that too much of it can be detrimental to the social order.[/QUOTE]
    It's the most efficient way to exchange goods

  6. #146
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Supports massive increases in tariffs.[/QUOTE]
    which ones

  7. #147
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan]Seriously bro....Central America can go f*** itself. So can Chili for that matter. They can stop paying tariffs when I stop paying income tax. And sales tax. And property tax. And gas tax. And universal service charges. And Social Security Tax. And Medicare Tax. And State Income Tax. And Liquor Tax. And Telephone federal excise tax. And Vehicle License Registration Tax. And Watercraft registration Tax. And School Tax. And Workers Compensation Tax. And Toll Bridge Taxes.


    How about a free trade agreement with the citizens of our own country. Lets do something to benefit the people that live here as opposed to company's run out of third world countries. How about our government worry about not reaming the a**es of its own populace. I have to pay taxes on everything I freaking buy, but I'm supposed to feel bad for some foreign company having to pay a tariff.

    Well boo-freaking-ho. Pay or don't sell your crap here. Quite frankly I'm getting sick of all the cheap sh*t these foreign companies make anyway. Id rather pay a little extra and get some quality items...you remember quality, right? That's what American companies used to be world renowned for. We set the bar for excellence. What have we become? A country that imports a bunch of plastic crap from China. Complete with lead paint for our kids.[/QUOTE]
    Tariffs are not a one-sided action. It hurts us too. Tariffs are just more taxes for everybody.

  8. #148
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    [QUOTE=JetsCrazey]Some people are so ideologically bent on free trade that they fail to realize that too much of it can be detrimental to the social order.[/QUOTE]


    I admit that I know next to nothing about global economics. Flush and Jets5 seem to have a much firmer grasp on it than most of us here. I respect their opinions because of that...

    Notwithstanding however...you have to realize the frustration that an average person such as myself with this open free trade. From an amateurs point of view...quality of products has gone down 75% but price has only dropped 25%. Nobody in their right mind can dispute that stuff made nowadays is a cheap in quality as it has ever been. Whatever happened to having metal handles on a car door? Or a piece of furniture made of of actual real live wood instead of particle board?

  9. #149
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    [QUOTE=BrooklynBound]Tariffs are not a one-sided action. It hurts us too. Tariffs are just more taxes for everybody.[/QUOTE]


    Yeah, I understand that. But still, how about lowering the tax burden on your own citizens alone before we worry to death about helping some banana republic gizmo manufacturer...

  10. #150
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan]Yeah, I understand that. But still, how about lowering the tax burden on your own citizens alone before we worry to death about helping some banana republic gizmo manufacturer...[/QUOTE]
    i'm with you.

  11. #151
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan]I admit that I know next to nothing about global economics. Flush and Jets5 seem to have a much firmer grasp on it than most of us here. I respect their opinions because of that...

    Notwithstanding however...you have to realize the frustration that an average person such as myself with this open free trade. From an amateurs point of view...quality of products has gone down 75% but price has only dropped 25%. Nobody in their right mind can dispute that stuff made nowadays is a cheap in quality as it has ever been. Whatever happened to having metal handles on a car door? Or a piece of furniture made of of actual real live wood instead of particle board?[/QUOTE]
    if enough people demand higher quality products, then they will become more available. you should hate the masses that demand cheap wal-mart crap, not the companies who accommodate us.

  12. #152
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    The Case for Free Trade

    This is Milton Friedman Case for Free Trade, something he says we do not have in this year 2007.

    [QUOTE]Consider an extreme case. Suppose that, to begin with, 360 yen equal a dollar. At this exchange rate, the actual rate of exchange for many years, suppose that the Japanese can produce and sell everything for fewer dollars than we can in the United States--TV sets, automobiles, steel, and even soybeans, wheat, milk, and ice cream. If we had free international trade, we would try to buy all our goods from Japan. This would seem to be the extreme horror story of the kind depicted by the defenders of tariffs--we would be flooded with Japanese goods and could sell them nothing.

    Before throwing up your hands in horror, carry the analysis one step further. How would we pay the Japanese? We would offer them dollar bills. What would they do with the dollar bills? We have assumed that at 360 yen to the dollar everything is cheaper in Japan, so there is nothing in the U.S. market that they would want to buy. If the Japanese exporters were willing to burn or bury the dollar bills, that would be wonderful for us. We would get all kinds of goods for green pieces of paper that we can produce in great abundance and very cheaply. We would have the most marvelous export industry conceivable.

    Of course, the Japanese would not in fact sell us useful goods in order to get useless pieces of paper to bury or burn. Like us, they want to get something real in return for their work. If all goods were cheaper in Japan than in the United States at 360 yen to the dollar, the exporters would try to get rid of their dollars, would try to sell them for 360 yen to the dollar in order to buy the cheaper Japanese goods. But who would be willing to buy the dollars? What is true for the Japanese exporter is true for everyone in Japan. No one will be willing to give 360 yen in exchange for one dollar if 360 yen will buy more of everything in Japan than one dollar will buy in the United States. The exporters, on discovering that no one will buy their dollars at 360 yen, will offer to take fewer yen for a dollar. The price of the dollar in terms of the yen will go down--to 300 yen for a dollar or 250 yen or 200 yen. Put the other way around, it will take more and more dollars to buy a given number of Japanese yen. Japanese goods are priced in yen, so their price in dollars will go up. Conversely, U.S. goods are priced in dollars, so the more dollars the Japanese get for a given number of yen, the cheaper U.S. goods become to the Japanese in terms of yen.

    The price of the dollar in terms of yen would fall, until, on the average, the dollar value of goods that the Japanese buy from the United States roughly equaled the dollar value of goods that the United States buys from Japan. At that price everybody who wanted to buy yen for dollars would find someone who was willing to sell him yen for dollars.

    The actual situation is, of course, more complicated than this hypothetical example. Many nations, and not merely the United States and Japan, are engaged in trade, and the trade often takes roundabout directions. The Japanese may spend some of the dollars they earn in Brazil, the Brazilians in turn may spend those dollars in Germany, the Germans in the United States, and so on in endless complexity. However, the principle is the same. People, in whatever country, want dollars primarily to buy useful items, not to hoard, and there can be no balance of payments problem so long as the price of the dollar in terms of the yen or the deutsche mark or the franc is determined in a free market by voluntary transactions.

    Why then all the furor about the "weakness" of the dollar? Why the repeated foreign exchange crises? The proximate reason is because foreign exchange rates have not been determined in a free market. Government central banks have intervened on a grand scale in order to influence the price of their currencies. In the process they have lost vast sums of their citizens' money (for the United States, close to two billion dollars from 1973 to early 1979). Even more important, they have prevented this important set of prices from performing its proper function. They have not been able to prevent the basic underlying economic forces from ultimately having their effect on exchange rates but have been able to maintain artificial exchange rates for substantial intervals. The effect has been to prevent gradual adjustment to the underlying forces. Small disturbances have accumulated into large ones, and ultimately there has been a major foreign exchange "crisis."[/QUOTE]

    [URL]http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/3550727.html[/URL]

  13. #153
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    [QUOTE=jefethegreat]This is Milton Friedman Case for Free Trade, something he says we do not have in this year 2007.



    [/QUOTE]
    Damn, I would've pegged you as an anti-globalization, pro-protectionist

  14. #154
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    [QUOTE=BrooklynBound]Damn, I would've pegged you as an anti-globalization, pro-protectionist[/QUOTE]

    I believe in free trade, but the way the system works now is not free trade and we are suffering from it.

  15. #155
    flushingjet
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan]I admit that I know next to nothing about global economics. Flush and Jets5 seem to have a much firmer grasp on it than most of us here. I respect their opinions because of that...

    Notwithstanding however...you have to realize the frustration that an average person such as myself with this open free trade. From an amateurs point of view...quality of products has gone down 75% but price has only dropped 25%. Nobody in their right mind can dispute that stuff made nowadays is a cheap in quality as it has ever been. Whatever happened to having metal handles on a car door? Or a piece of furniture made of of actual real live wood instead of particle board?[/QUOTE]

    tell me about it
    i feel your philosophical pain, sort of

    reminds me of when I went with my dad to
    pick up some tempered steel and he couldnt
    get every size he wanted manufactured in america-
    griping about sheffield/japanese steel all the way

    theres a lot of factors that one needs to consider

    one, that the invisible hand of the market will guide
    consumers to make suitable decisions

    in previously more primitive times it made the most sense
    to keep business and trade local
    lots of analysis you can make there to
    why that made sense in olden days

    today,
    with more open markets, global competition and low/no tariffs,
    consumers can make choices that suit them
    trading off quality and price
    the more choices the better for us as individual
    consumers
    consumption patterns shift with price, availability
    and quantity

    last time i looked, america had more
    choices than the old soviet GUM department
    store and its one brand of hemmhorroid scraping
    cardboard toilet paper

    two the more industry and jobs there are for developing
    nations the more likely they are to have a better
    standard of living, less social unrest,
    more democratization , better relations with those
    trading partners,
    and the fewer people we have sneaking in here on top
    of the millions actually standing in line

    the latter is crucial re: maintenance of our language
    culture and national security

    import tariffs only have the effect of preserving
    domestic monopolies/oligopolies
    whether they are efficient or inefficient

    improperly administered
    (ie the wrong amount at the wrong time)
    they tend to damage the economy
    (i e smoot-hawley)

    other nations play that game too....
    for example, why did we, the usa
    let cheap hyundais, kias etc in from s korea when
    the tariff/tax implication on us cars was
    prohibitive (huge tariff , plus your
    taxes were audited automatically
    if you as a s korean bought an american made car)
    plus they were rolling deathtraps

    but i hate flim-flams like counting offshore production
    of us firms in domestic gnp/gdp....bad bad bad

    i understand your concerns...really, i do

    but your other post about taxes is another topic
    altogether-
    much of that is re: socialism/govt expenditure,
    not free trade
    and when people/companies are too taxed/exploited
    they usually move to a cheaper place

    id love to move today but due to personal
    (not financial or my own preference)
    circumstances i cant
    down the road, when the time is right, im gone from the n. e.
    till then i have to deal

    i trust the consumer to make intelligent/rational decisions
    about the goods they buy-ultimately they make
    decisions that seem optimal and if they arent they
    learn from the error and move on

    if all you need is a plastic or cheap metal screw,
    tool or other implement, the made in macao item will suffice
    or if you have less funds have to suffice

    does using certain commoditized parts in fabrication mean the
    house will collapse or the car will crash-of course not

    the lower cost of commoditized parts means cheaper
    cost of finished products thats good for the consumer

    delay your purchasing decision, and you may have
    a better choice down the road

    if you wish to buy made in usa, as i usually do, you dont buy
    foreign made products

    if you wish to buy better quality you learn what to
    look for and purchase accordingly
    (consumer reports, etc)

    i dont shed too many tears for the bygone
    industries and factories,
    they had their pros and cons,
    they served their purpose well,
    but when they became too inefficient
    or markets saturated/mature,
    or worst of all indifferent to their consumers
    markets were abandoned one way or another
    Last edited by flushingjet; 06-27-2007 at 09:14 AM.

  16. #156
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet]two the more industry and jobs there are for developing
    nations the more likely they are to have a better
    standard of living, less social unrest,
    more democratization , better relations with those
    trading partners,
    and the fewer people we have sneaking in here on top
    of the millions actually standing in line[/QUOTE]

    This I understand. A free flow of trade that ups the standard of living in Mexico to the point that Mexico becomes a place where Mexicans would want to live. Perhaps Mexican infrastructure would introduce itself to the 21st century with thing like treated water and sewer systems, better roads and buildings. Mexico would suddenly become more attractive for retiring Americans. Who would want to live in Boca when you could buy a brand new house on the Pacific coast of Mexico for 120,000? Perhaps a Oklahoma land rush of the Latin American kind would ensue benefiting American contractors who are running out of places to build in the States. I, for one, wouldn't mind living out my days in the tropics with some Mayan ruins in my backyard...just as long as drinking the water wouldn't give me the craps for a week or two...

    [QUOTE]but your other post about taxes is another topic
    altogether-
    much of that is re: socialism/govt expenditure,
    not free trade
    and when people/companies are too taxed/exploited
    they usually move to a cheaper place[/QUOTE]

    And such is my misguided :D support of a guy like Paul. I think Americans in general, regardless of party affiliation, share a feeling of disgust in the way the federal government has its hands jammed in our wallet. I have been accused of being a liberal...but when it comes to taxes, I really side with Republican ideology on the issue. Recently however, it seems that the party has lost itself. Not taking anything away from Bush's tax cuts, I just want more. More more more more. More to benefit an average Joe like me. I don't have an estate to tax. The only windfall I receive is after burrito night at my house. And the only thing I inherited from my Dad is half a set of genes and a love of Sunday morning bagels.

    That's why when a guy says stuff like "I want to abolish the IRS" it perks my ears. Even if a guy like Brownback said it I would probably throw my hat in to support him. Go ahead, ban gay marriage. Post the 10 commandment in every courthouse and Arby's in the US. Pray everyday at school. If he was the guy that was going to up my paycheck by 30%...I just might convert to fundamentalism...

  17. #157
    flushingjet
    Guest
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan]This I understand. A free flow of trade that ups the standard of living in Mexico to the point that Mexico becomes a place where Mexicans would want to live. Perhaps Mexican infrastructure would introduce itself to the 21st century with thing like treated water and sewer systems, better roads and buildings. Mexico would suddenly become more attractive for retiring Americans. Who would want to live in Boca when you could buy a brand new house on the Pacific coast of Mexico for 120,000? Perhaps a Oklahoma land rush of the Latin American kind would ensue benefiting American contractors who are running out of places to build in the States. I, for one, wouldn't mind living out my days in the tropics with some Mayan ruins in my backyard...just as long as drinking the water wouldn't give me the craps for a week or two...



    And such is my misguided :D support of a guy like Paul. I think Americans in general, regardless of party affiliation, share a feeling of disgust in the way the federal government has its hands jammed in our wallet. I have been accused of being a liberal...but when it comes to taxes, I really side with Republican ideology on the issue. Recently however, it seems that the party has lost itself. Not taking anything away from Bush's tax cuts, I just want more. More more more more. More to benefit an average Joe like me. I don't have an estate to tax. The only windfall I receive is after burrito night at my house. And the only thing I inherited from my Dad is half a set of genes and a love of Sunday morning bagels.

    That's why when a guy says stuff like "I want to abolish the IRS" it perks my ears. Even if a guy like Brownback said it I would probably throw my hat in to support him. Go ahead, ban gay marriage. Post the 10 commandment in every courthouse and Arby's in the US. Pray everyday at school. If he was the guy that was going to up my paycheck by 30%...I just might convert to fundamentalism...[/QUOTE]

    tell me about it
    if this immigration pos bill passes im
    considering changing to independent
    most gopers have already told the rnc and rnsc to shove off
    if they force this crap on us
    only problem is i dont want
    to not vote in the ny primary

    fred or rudy...the rest are johnny one-notes

    anecdotally, many people have retired to
    mexico...have no idea what it
    takes or how to do it...not interested
    in the least, never visited even from
    sd and never want to despite much of my
    family intermarried with mexicans

    yes, you have identified
    the flaw with my/the theorizing below
    is that it doesnt always take into
    consideration some other factors

    for example if a country has
    a certain well entrenched
    culture or class structure or
    rigid govt/military rule it does not
    approximate the level of
    other western democracies despite
    a) a strong/burgeoning manufacturing base
    b) seemingly free elections, or not

    china, malaysia, mexico, india

    me, i dont support ron paul because
    im very pro-war, pro-defense and
    anti-drug

    many of ronpaulstiltskin's positions are completely
    palatable to me (not that i would literally eat them)
    but others are completely untenable

    gold standard-dont make me laff

    islamic opposition/wars are blowback
    for us foreign policy-thats another belly laugh

    i do believe in live and let live
    in a groovy libertarian kinda vibe except:

    when laws prohibit any expression of religion
    (take 10 commandments and menorahs
    and crucifixes out of public settings)
    especially when islam is not subject
    to the same prohibition

    when im forced to pay for others dysfunction
    (abortion, medicaid, rehab, school lunches)

    when laws prohibit/limit free speech
    (speech as hate crime, mccain-feingold,
    "fairness doctrine")

    any enforcement of quotas
    (equal opportunity anything)

    when the completely
    abnormal is forced on us as legal/acceptable
    (abortion, euthanasia, eugenics,
    gay marriage, condoms in school,
    nambla, polygamy, sex ed for weenyboppers)

    and when our borders are completely unpatrolled
    and immigration laws completely unenforced

    especialmente sanctuary cities, churches and the like
    they should all be cut off the federal money teat

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