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Thread: Welcome to Palestine

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    Welcome to Palestine

    [B]Robert Fisk: Welcome to 'Palestine' [/B]

    Published: 16 June 2007

    How troublesome the Muslims of the Middle East are. First, we demand that the Palestinians embrace democracy and then they elect the wrong party - Hamas - and then Hamas wins a mini-civil war and presides over the Gaza Strip. And we Westerners still want to negotiate with the discredited President, Mahmoud Abbas. Today "Palestine" - and let's keep those quotation marks in place - has two prime ministers. Welcome to the Middle East.

    Who can we negotiate with? To whom do we talk? Well of course, we should have talked to Hamas months ago. But we didn't like the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people. They were supposed to have voted for Fatah and its corrupt leadership. But they voted for Hamas, which declines to recognise Israel or abide by the totally discredited Oslo agreement.

    No one asked - on our side - which particular Israel Hamas was supposed to recognise. The Israel of 1948? The Israel of the post-1967 borders? The Israel which builds - and goes on building - vast settlements for Jews and Jews only on Arab land, gobbling up even more of the 22 per cent of "Palestine" still left to negotiate over ?

    And so today, we are supposed to talk to our faithful policeman, Mr Abbas, the "moderate" (as the BBC, CNN and Fox News refer to him) Palestinian leader, a man who wrote a 600-page book about Oslo without once mentioning the word "occupation", who always referred to Israeli "redeployment" rather than "withdrawal", a "leader" we can trust because he wears a tie and goes to the White House and says all the right things. The Palestinians didn't vote for Hamas because they wanted an Islamic republic - which is how Hamas's bloody victory will be represented - but because they were tired of the corruption of Mr Abbas's Fatah and the rotten nature of the "Palestinian Authority".

    I recall years ago being summoned to the home of a PA official whose walls had just been punctured by an Israeli tank shell. All true. But what struck me were the gold-plated taps in his bathroom. Those taps - or variations of them - were what cost Fatah its election. Palestinians wanted an end to corruption - the cancer of the Arab world - and so they voted for Hamas and thus we, the all-wise, all-good West, decided to sanction them and starve them and bully them for exercising their free vote. Maybe we should offer "Palestine" EU membership if it would be gracious enough to vote for the right people?

    All over the Middle East, it is the same. We support Hamid Karzai in Afghanistan, even though he keeps warlords and drug barons in his government (and, by the way, we really are sorry about all those innocent Afghan civilians we are killing in our "war on terror" in the wastelands of Helmand province).

    We love Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, whose torturers have not yet finished with the Muslim Brotherhood politicians recently arrested outside Cairo, whose presidency received the warm support of Mrs - yes Mrs - George W Bush - and whose succession will almost certainly pass to his son, Gamal.

    We adore Muammar Gaddafi, the crazed dictator of Libya whose werewolves have murdered his opponents abroad, whose plot to murder King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia preceded Tony Blair's recent visit to Tripoli - Colonel Gaddafi, it should be remembered, was called a "statesman" by Jack Straw for abandoning his non-existent nuclear ambitions - and whose "democracy" is perfectly acceptable to us because he is on our side in the "war on terror".

    Yes, and we love King Abdullah's unconstitutional monarchy in Jordan, and all the princes and emirs of the Gulf, especially those who are paid such vast bribes by our arms companies that even Scotland Yard has to close down its investigations on the orders of our prime minister - and yes, I can indeed see why he doesn't like The Independent's coverage of what he quaintly calls "the Middle East". If only the Arabs - and the Iranians - would support our kings and shahs and princes whose sons and daughters are educated at Oxford and Harvard, how much easier the "Middle East" would be to control.

    For that is what it is about - control - and that is why we hold out, and withdraw, favours from their leaders. Now Gaza belongs to Hamas, what will our own elected leaders do? Will our pontificators in the EU, the UN, Washington and Moscow now have to talk to these wretched, ungrateful people (fear not, for they will not be able to shake hands) or will they have to acknowledge the West Bank version of Palestine (Abbas, the safe pair of hands) while ignoring the elected, militarily successful Hamas in Gaza?

    It's easy, of course, to call down a curse on both their houses. But that's what we say about the whole Middle East. If only Bashar al-Assad wasn't President of Syria (heaven knows what the alternative would be) or if the cracked President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad wasn't in control of Iran (even if he doesn't actually know one end of a nuclear missile from the other).

    If only Lebanon was a home-grown democracy like our own little back-lawn countries - Belgium, for example, or Luxembourg. But no, those pesky Middle Easterners vote for the wrong people, support the wrong people, love the wrong people, don't behave like us civilised Westerners.

    So what will we do? Support the reoccupation of Gaza perhaps? Certainly we will not criticise Israel. And we shall go on giving our affection to the kings and princes and unlovely presidents of the Middle East until the whole place blows up in our faces and then we shall say - as we are already saying of the Iraqis - that they don't deserve our sacrifice and our love.

    How do we deal with a coup d'état by an elected government?

    [url]http://news.independent.co.uk/fisk/article2663199.ece[/url]

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    Hilarious, absolutely hilarious. Yes, nothing is the Palestinians or Hamas' fault - victims, all. Those damn Jews!

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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Hilarious, absolutely hilarious. Yes, nothing is the Palestinians or Hamas' fault - victims, all. Those damn Jews![/QUOTE]

    My god your responses are so laughably predictable. You are an extremist. Where does the author say that nothing is Palestines/Hamas' fault and all the blame should be put on the Jews? Where?

    God forbid Israel and the USA ever accept some of the blame? Cause we all know the Israelis and America have [I]never[/I] done anything wrong to the Palestinian people, Never.

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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]My god your responses are so laughably predictable. You are an extremist. Where does the author say that nothing is Palestines/Hamas' fault and all the blame should be put on the Jews? Where?

    God forbid Israel and the USA ever accept some of the blame? Cause we all know the Israelis and America have [I]never[/I] done anything wrong to the Palestinian people, Never.[/QUOTE]


    Yeah, no offense, but you're not worth discussing things with...

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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]My god your responses are so laughably predictable. You are an extremist. Where does the author say that nothing is Palestines/Hamas' fault and all the blame should be put on the Jews? Where?

    God forbid Israel and the USA ever accept some of the blame? Cause we all know the Israelis and America have [I]never[/I] done anything wrong to the Palestinian people, Never.[/QUOTE]
    You aren't too good with inferences and nuances are you?

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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]My god your responses are so laughably predictable. You are an extremist. [/QUOTE]

    Pot, Meet Kettle. Kettle, this is Pot.

    What exactly do you think YOU are Ken? You don't think you're Predictable? You don't think you come accross as extreme?

    Wow, Da Nile isn't just a river in Egypt, eh? :rolleyes:

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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Yeah, no offense, but you're not worth discussing things with...[/QUOTE]

    OK Boy Wonder!
    You can dish out the insults but cant take them!

    Son, maybe you havent noticed, but you have been dead wrong about everything re the ME that we have discussed. Just go back a few years when I predicted that Iraq would be in chaos in the midst of a sectarian civil war and that the so called "democracy" would be an utter failure and you scoffed at me saying that I should give them a chance and why wouldnt democracy be accepted by the Iraqis. Not to mention your praising of Stephen Hayes' book despite the fact that he used sources discredited by just about every intelligence service in the world as unreliable.

    And [I]I[/I] should take [I]you[/I] seriously when discussing the ME? Please, youre a pathetic joke.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish]Pot, Meet Kettle. Kettle, this is Pot.

    What exactly do you think YOU are Ken? You don't think you're Predictable? You don't think you come accross as extreme?

    Wow, Da Nile isn't just a river in Egypt, eh? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    I admit my views are extreme and slanted to the left. J5E does not and has the audacity to insult others. He is by far the biggest hypocrite and most arrogant poster here. I disagree with others, but i try to hold back on the insults. Occasionally i admit i slip.

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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]I admit my views are extreme and slanted to the left. J5E does not and has the audacity to insult others. He is by far the biggest hypocrite and most arrogant poster here. I disagree with others, but i try to hold back on the insults. Occasionally i admit i slip.[/QUOTE]

    I disagree. I am VASTLY more arrogant that George is. :P

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    no one seems to notice the irony

    Bush pushes for democracy in the Middle East.

    Hamas gets democratically elected.

    We don't recognise them.

    They take the country by force.

    We still don't recognise them.

    Hey hello? This is democracy in action ladies and gentlemen.

    Oh I'm sorry this is my mistake we don't really want the people of the Middle East to choose their own leadership, we want them to choose leaders we want them to choose.

    In other words we want to meddle in their affairs and exact our will upon their lives.

    This is one of the root causes of terrorism. Not crazy brainwashed zealots. Not OBL. It's our interferance, since the days of FDR and Truman that the people of the Middle East resent.

    It's short sighted selfish foreign policy that exploits the region for the best interests of America not the best interests of the people who live there.

    How do we think we can fix the problem?

    With more meddling, of course. :confused:

    it would be funny if it weren't so tragic

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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]OK Boy Wonder!
    You can dish out the insults but cant take them!

    Son, maybe you havent noticed, but you have been dead wrong about everything re the ME that we have discussed. Just go back a few years when I predicted that Iraq would be in chaos in the midst of a sectarian civil war and that the so called "democracy" would be an utter failure and you scoffed at me saying that I should give them a chance and why wouldnt democracy be accepted by the Iraqis. Not to mention your praising of Stephen Hayes' book despite the fact that he used sources discredited by just about every intelligence service in the world as unreliable.

    And [I]I[/I] should take [I]you[/I] seriously when discussing the ME? Please, youre a pathetic joke.[/QUOTE]

    Ha, ha...hardly. You really are a piece of work.

    Your posts on everything related to the ME are so unbelievably biased towards terrorists (your proposed solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict is particularly hysterical, every single post you have ever made about Iran is absurd, etc) that I simply don't take you seriously anymore. Plus, you do nothing but regurgitate things from DailyKos and Juan Cole, so there's no need to even read your posts because I know what you'll say....(OT - altough the post in which you claimed unborn children aren't humans was particularly appalling, even by your standards...that sort of started the process of me not taking you seriously).

    You're like Bitonti - convinced of your infallible judgment. Hey, if Bitonti can claim with a straight face to have been right about the Duke case, I guess you can claim to be right about everything too.

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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]
    You're like Bitonti - convinced of your infallible judgment. Hey, if Bitonti can claim with a straight face to have been right about the Duke case, I guess you can claim to be right about everything too.[/QUOTE]

    please read and reply to my post in this thread.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti]no one seems to notice the irony

    Bush pushes for democracy in the Middle East.

    Hamas gets democratically elected.

    We don't recognise them.

    They take the country by force.

    We still don't recognise them.

    Hey hello? This is democracy in action ladies and gentlemen.

    Oh I'm sorry this is my mistake we don't really want the people of the Middle East to choose their own leadership, we want them to choose leaders we want them to choose.

    In other words we want to meddle in their affairs and exact our will upon their lives.

    This is one of the root causes of terrorism. Not crazy brainwashed zealots. Not OBL. It's our interferance, since the days of FDR and Truman that the people of the Middle East resent.

    It's short sighted selfish foreign policy that exploits the region for the best interests of America not the best interests of the people who live there.

    How do we think we can fix the problem?

    With more meddling, of course. :confused:

    it would be funny if it weren't so tragic[/QUOTE]


    I actually don't disagree with much of this post.

  14. #14
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    [QUOTE=bitonti]please read and reply to my post in this thread.[/QUOTE]

    The tragic thing about this situation is that kenny and you and your ilk claimed for years and years that Hamas et al didn't speak for the Palestinians, but rather were not representative of the Palestinian people, all whom only want peace and have no beef with Israel and merely want to live side by side with jews in their own state. Now, when the Palestinians clearly and without any doubt, support Hamas and want to be led by them, you guys don't acknowledge the possibility that perhaps all Palestinians want is [I]not[/I] peace...no, you simply dismiss it with the new liberal mantra of the Hamas support not being pro-terrorism at all, in fact, 0% of the reason why they voted for Hamas was to support terrorism or the destruction of Israel or anti-semitism...no, it was an anti-corruption vote. Yes, 100% of the reason why Hamas won was that they aren't corrupt and Fatah is. Terrorism and hatred of the jews had absolutely NOTHING to do with it. Makes sense to me.

    This election should have shown that the problem is the murderous racism of many arabs, not US interference. It should have finally cast aside the liberal myth that Palestinians only want a peaceful coexistence with Israel.

    The Palestinians can elect whomever they want, but we don't have to treat all governing bodies the same and they reap what they sow. This election should have made liberals realize that now the cards are all on the table - Palestinians without a doubt support terrorism. No more can we believe the myths that they don't support terrorism. The benefits of this election is that it is now impossible to deny this (though people like Fisk and Kenny still try to).

    No matter what happens, people like Bitonti will blame the US and the Jews for the problems. They all talked about Land for Peace, yet what did Israel get in return for leaving Gaza in 2005? Nothin, except that the terrorists simply moved their rockets closer to Israel and kept firing, like we all said they would.

    The election of Hamas and the actions of the arabs post the 2005 withdrawl from Gaza could not be clearer evidence of arab unwillingness to ever recognize Israel or negotiate in good faith and should shatter the naive notion that Palestinians don't support terrorism. Without these elections, liberals could still try to keep alive the myth that Palestinians hate terror, have nothing against Jews and merely want a peaceful coexistence. Now, the entire world knows that Palestinians have chosen to be led by terrorists. Instead of recognizing this fact, this has become nothing but yet another thing liberals can try to spin to be the fault of Bush and Israel, and they don't blame the arabs at all. Everything is our fault, none of it is their fault. If it wasn't so tragic, it'd be funny. This is further evidence of the fact that no matter what happens, Bitonti and his ilk will blame America and the jews....

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    The question is why would Israel want to meet with Hamas, when Hamas doesn't think Israel has a right to exist. If you really want to know there is a Palestine already it is called Jordan. But Jordan doesn't want the Palestinians either! The Jews, Jordanians, Syrians, Egytians, Saudis none of them want the Palestinians oh I forgot the Lebanese also! But the Jews are the problem!
    Bullcrap!

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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]The tragic thing about this situation is that kenny and you and your ilk claimed for years and years that Hamas et al didn't speak for the Palestinians, but rather were not representative of the Palestinian people, all whom only want peace and have no beef with Israel and merely want to live side by side with jews in their own state. Now, when the Palestinians clearly and without any doubt, support Hamas and want to be led by them, you guys don't acknowledge the possibility that perhaps all Palestinians want is [I]not[/I] peace...no, you simply dismiss it with the new liberal mantra of the Hamas support not being pro-terrorism at all, in fact, 0% of the reason why they voted for Hamas was to support terrorism or the destruction of Israel or anti-semitism...no, it was an anti-corruption vote. Yes, 100% of the reason why Hamas won was that they aren't corrupt and Fatah is. Terrorism and hatred of the jews had absolutely NOTHING to do with it. Makes sense to me.

    This election should have shown that the problem is the murderous racism of many arabs, not US interference. It should have finally cast aside the liberal myth that Palestinians only want a peaceful coexistence with Israel.

    The Palestinians can elect whomever they want, but we don't have to treat all governing bodies the same and they reap what they sow. This election should have made liberals realize that now the cards are all on the table - Palestinians without a doubt support terrorism. No more can we believe the myths that they don't support terrorism. The benefits of this election is that it is now impossible to deny this (though people like Fisk and Kenny still try to).

    No matter what happens, people like Bitonti will blame the US and the Jews for the problems. They all talked about Land for Peace, yet what did Israel get in return for leaving Gaza in 2005? Nothin, except that the terrorists simply moved their rockets closer to Israel and kept firing, like we all said they would.

    The election of Hamas and the actions of the arabs post the 2005 withdrawl from Gaza could not be clearer evidence of arab unwillingness to ever recognize Israel or negotiate in good faith and should shatter the naive notion that Palestinians don't support terrorism. Without these elections, liberals could still try to keep alive the myth that Palestinians hate terror, have nothing against Jews and merely want a peaceful coexistence. Now, the entire world knows that Palestinians have chosen to be led by terrorists. Instead of recognizing this fact, this has become nothing but yet another thing liberals can try to spin to be the fault of Bush and Israel, and they don't blame the arabs at all. Everything is our fault, none of it is their fault. If it wasn't so tragic, it'd be funny. This is further evidence of the fact that no matter what happens, Bitonti and his ilk will blame America and the jews....[/QUOTE]

    Your response is laughably naive and shows just how misinformed you are. Do you actually read about these topics? I mean your response is just a typical regurgitation what is written in the NR and weekly standard.

    After reading your response (which is BTW longwinded and full of inaccuracies) i am convinced you dont have the slightest clue about Palestinian Issues. For starters Hamas did not win because they ran on an "Anti-Israel" Campaign. They won b/c they were promosing to end the corruption that permeated the Govt under Fatah. Fatah under both the late Yasser Arafat and the current leader Mahmood Abbas was unbelievably corrupt. They pocketed money that should have gone to the development of Palestine and provided the Palestinians with jobs and kept it for themselves, getting wealthier while their people were kept in dire straits. Hamas' entire campaign was based on ending this. That is why they won. Not because of an "anti-Israel campaign" and not because the Palestinians are for an Islamist takeover. The Palestinians had no good option. They picked , what many felt, was the lesser of two evels. Now maybe for USA/Israel, they made the wrong choice because like you, they dont give a rats a$$ about the plight of the avg Palestinian and whether they remain dirt poor and whether they are exploited by their government. But for an avg Palestinian who has no money to feed his family, voting out a govt that is robbing them/keeping them poor and voting in a govt that is promising a better life is a better option.

    Why would someone who doesnt have a penny to feed his family care so much about Israel that they would put "anti-Israel " ahead of "anti-corruption? Makes NO sense to me
    Last edited by kennyo7; 06-20-2007 at 02:07 PM.

  17. #17
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]The tragic thing about this situation is that kenny and you and your ilk claimed for years and years that Hamas et al didn't speak for the Palestinians, but rather were not representative of the Palestinian people, all whom only want peace and have no beef with Israel and merely want to live side by side with jews in their own state. Now, when the Palestinians clearly and without any doubt, support Hamas and want to be led by them, you guys don't acknowledge the possibility that perhaps all Palestinians want is [I]not[/I] peace...no, you simply dismiss it with the new liberal mantra of the Hamas support not being pro-terrorism at all, in fact, 0% of the reason why they voted for Hamas was to support terrorism or the destruction of Israel or anti-semitism...no, it was an anti-corruption vote. Yes, 100% of the reason why Hamas won was that they aren't corrupt and Fatah is. Terrorism and hatred of the jews had absolutely NOTHING to do with it. Makes sense to me.

    This election should have shown that the problem is the murderous racism of many arabs, not US interference. It should have finally cast aside the liberal myth that Palestinians only want a peaceful coexistence with Israel.

    The Palestinians can elect whomever they want, but we don't have to treat all governing bodies the same and they reap what they sow. This election should have made liberals realize that now the cards are all on the table - Palestinians without a doubt support terrorism. No more can we believe the myths that they don't support terrorism. The benefits of this election is that it is now impossible to deny this (though people like Fisk and Kenny still try to).

    No matter what happens, people like Bitonti will blame the US and the Jews for the problems. They all talked about Land for Peace, yet what did Israel get in return for leaving Gaza in 2005? Nothin, except that the terrorists simply moved their rockets closer to Israel and kept firing, like we all said they would.

    The election of Hamas and the actions of the arabs post the 2005 withdrawl from Gaza could not be clearer evidence of arab unwillingness to ever recognize Israel or negotiate in good faith and should shatter the naive notion that Palestinians don't support terrorism. Without these elections, liberals could still try to keep alive the myth that Palestinians hate terror, have nothing against Jews and merely want a peaceful coexistence. Now, the entire world knows that Palestinians have chosen to be led by terrorists. Instead of recognizing this fact, this has become nothing but yet another thing liberals can try to spin to be the fault of Bush and Israel, and they don't blame the arabs at all. Everything is our fault, none of it is their fault. If it wasn't so tragic, it'd be funny. This is further evidence of the fact that no matter what happens, Bitonti and his ilk will blame America and the jews....[/QUOTE]

    nowhere in that rambling diatribe did you address the fundemental flaw in promoting democracy in a region that is clearly not ready for it.

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    [QUOTE=MnJetFan]The question is why would Israel want to meet with Hamas, when Hamas doesn't think Israel has a right to exist. If you really want to know there is a Palestine already it is called Jordan. But Jordan doesn't want the Palestinians either! The Jews, Jordanians, Syrians, Egytians, Saudis none of them want the Palestinians oh I forgot the Lebanese also! But the Jews are the problem!
    Bullcrap![/QUOTE]

    Why should another country want to accept tons of refugees when they barely have the resources to support their own people??

    I dont see you crying for America to take in refugees from Darfur or Central America. Hell , we a re trying to build walls and get rid of our latin "refugees", why expect them to be any different?

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    [QUOTE](altough the post in which you claimed unborn children aren't humans was particularly appalling, even by your standards...that sort of started the process of me not taking you seriously).[/QUOTE]

    The fact that you can not make the distinction between an 6 week old embryo and a living human outside of the womb is what is appalling. Never mind the fact that you couldnt give a rats a$$ about supporting programs that aid human life after its born.

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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]My god your responses are so laughably predictable. You are an extremist. Where does the author say that nothing is Palestines/Hamas' fault and all the blame should be put on the Jews? Where?

    God forbid Israel and the USA ever accept some of the blame? Cause we all know the Israelis and America have [I]never[/I] done anything wrong to the Palestinian people, Never.[/QUOTE]

    let's give everyone a hug since us americans and israelis are all such big jerks.

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