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Thread: Welcome to Palestine

  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]Your response is laughably naive and shows just how misinformed you are. Do you actually read about these topics? I mean your response is just a typical regurgitation what is written in the NR and weekly standard.

    After reading your response (which is BTW longwinded and full of inaccuracies) i am convinced you dont have the slightest clue about Palestinian Issues. For starters Hamas did not win because they ran on an "Anti-Israel" Campaign. They won b/c they were promosing to end the corruption that permeated the Govt under Fatah. Fatah under both the late Yasser Arafat and the current leader Mahmood Abbas was unbelievably corrupt. They pocketed money that should have gone to the development of Palestine and provided the Palestinians with jobs and kept it for themselves, getting wealthier while their people were kept in dire straits. Hamas' entire campaign was based on ending this. That is why they won. Not because of an "anti-Israel campaign" and not because the Palestinians are for an Islamist takeover. The Palestinians had no good option. They picked , what many felt, was the lesser of two evels. Now maybe for USA/Israel, they made the wrong choice because like you, they dont give a rats a$$ about the plight of the avg Palestinian and whether they remain dirt poor and whether they are exploited by their government. But for an avg Palestinian who has no money to feed his family, voting out a govt that is robbing them/keeping them poor and voting in a govt that is promising a better life is a better option.

    Why would someone who doesnt have a penny to feed his family care so much about Israel that they would put "anti-Israel " ahead of "anti-corruption? Makes NO sense to me[/QUOTE]

    Ha ha...classic. This is why I simply can't take you seriously anymore.

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Ha ha...classic. This is why I simply can't take you seriously anymore.[/QUOTE]

    so 5ever direct question:

    do you think the people of the Middle East are ready for democracy?

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=bitonti]so 5ever direct question:

    do you think the people of the Middle East are ready for democracy?[/QUOTE]


    It's working in Israel, no?

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]It's working in Israel, no?[/QUOTE]


    I think he means the people with the dark skin who like to ride camels.

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan]I think he means the people with the dark skin who like to ride camels.[/QUOTE]

    There are over a million arab muslim citizens in Israel.

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]There are over a million arab muslim citizens in Israel.[/QUOTE]

    Jeez, could the fact that Israel is an industrialized nation that the West designed for success, with a strong functioning middle/working clas, with a more robust economy , that receives millions in military aid as well as 20% of the US foreign aid , and has had significant foreign investment, have anything to do with why democracy has worked there? Maybe?

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Ha ha...classic. This is why I simply can't take you seriously anymore.[/QUOTE]

    A classic response from someone who has no answer.
    Cant admit you are wrong. Nothing to back up your claims that Palestinians voted in Hamas simply b/c they are favoring the destruction of Isarael, just throwing insults. You are truly a lightweight when it comes to the ME.

    You claim that the Palestinian election of Hamas (who BTW won by a small margin with only 44% of the votes) is simply b/c the Palestinians are "murderous racists". If thats true tell us why a few years back in 2005 60% the Palestinians voted for Abbas and 20% for Mustafa Barghoutti. Both candidates did not favor "the destruction of Israel". So what happened in 1 year that suddenly the same Palestinian voters who picked candidates [B]opposing[/B] an "anti-Israel " platform suddenly favor taking an aggressive stance against Israel by voting in Hamas? How did they become "murderous racists" in that 1 year?

    The only racist i see is YOU. Your hatred for Arabs/Muslims blinds you from thinking clearly. Unfortunately there are too many racist a$$holes just like you who couldnt care less about the Arab people and continue to support policies that hurt them and quite frankly dont help our long term interests.

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]Jeez, could the fact that Israel is an industrialized nation that the West designed for success, with a strong functioning middle/working clas, with a more robust economy , that receives millions in military aid as well as 20% of the US foreign aid , and has had significant foreign investment, have anything to do with why democracy has worked there? Maybe?[/QUOTE]


    They also have the rule of law and relatively low corruption and strong property rights, which gives foreign investors confidence to invest, also aids employment and helps makes their economy more robust. They aso respect individual rights and have for decades and place a high cultural value on academic achievment and entreprenurship, and have consistently for THOUSANDS of years. Jews have adapted and assimilated successfully to various cultures and governmental structures throughout their entire history, it's no surprise that they have been successful in Israel, even on a small strip of land with not many natural resources, surrounded by tens of millions of people who want them dead. They do get a lot of aid, no question, but you are laughably minimizing their own role in their success, and also fail to note that this success is not an aberration but merely a continuation of their success of the past, often as one of the most persecuted and (unjustly) villified peoples wherever they have been. They built that state into what it is...it was most certainly NOT handed to them, as you imply.

    Your logic holds that somehow all of these things just appeared out of nowhere to help Israel...and Israel had no part of creating the circumstances which allow them to flourish or establishing a cultural framework which acted as a catalyst in many ways. To follow your logic, you'd think Barry Bonds was lucky - he always seems to come to bat when a homeun is about to be hit, just like the jews are lucky. Despotic regimes that don't have the rule of law, re-investments in infrastructure, low corruption, minimal property rights and a low cultural value on diverse education (women) or entrepreneurship generally don't attract foreign investment or modernize as well as those that do. Jews adapt and progress - it's in their blood...they've been doing it successfully forever. The arab muslim culture has not adapted and progressed...it is essentially 500-800 years behind the rest of the world, which is a shame, since it used to be a world leader in many things, like medicine, mathematics, etc. There is something in their culture that is holding them back. It is a flaw in their culture and they will continue to suffer until it is corrected, regardless of what appeasers like you and Bitonti say. In this crucial respect, arab muslim culture is inferior to Israel's and the West's. It is not racist to say so and only someone who is paralyzed by political correctness would disagree. Smart peoples learn from other cultures and adopt practices that are superior to their own...it is why we use arabic numerals as opposed to roman numberals and why every culture now recognizes the concept of zero. Roman numberals are not equal or just as valid as arabic numerals, they are worse, period. Arabic numberals are a better system, period. It's the same with the metric system...that is superior to the American system of inches and feet, period. Some of these cultural flaws are minor, some are major. The cultural flaws in the current ME arab muslim culture are major and are what need to be changed...otherwise, pick whatever grievance you want - hateful clerics will always find a grievance to manufacture so we are fooling ourselves if we think we will magically figure out the exact pattern of behavior that will satiate them, unless we all want to face Mecca five times a day and keep our women covered from head to toe.

  9. #29
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]There are over a million arab muslim citizens in Israel.[/QUOTE]

    In Detroit too...

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]They also have the rule of law and relatively low corruption and strong property rights, which gives foreign investors confidence to invest, also aids employment and helps makes their economy more robust. They aso respect individual rights and have for decades and place a high cultural value on academic achievment and entreprenurship, and have consistently for THOUSANDS of years. Jews have adapted and assimilated successfully to various cultures and governmental structures throughout their entire history, it's no surprise that they have been successful in Israel, even on a small strip of land with not many natural resources, surrounded by tens of millions of people who want them dead. They do get a lot of aid, no question, but you are laughably minimizing their own role in their success, and also fail to note that this success is not an aberration but merely a continuation of their success of the past, often as one of the most persecuted and (unjustly) villified peoples wherever they have been. They built that state into what it is...it was most certainly NOT handed to them, as you imply.

    Your logic holds that somehow all of these things just appeared out of nowhere to help Israel...and Israel had no part of creating the circumstances which allow them to flourish or establishing a cultural framework which acted as a catalyst in many ways. To follow your logic, you'd think Barry Bonds was lucky - he always seems to come to bat when a homeun is about to be hit, just like the jews are lucky. Despotic regimes that don't have the rule of law, re-investments in infrastructure, low corruption, minimal property rights and a low cultural value on diverse education (women) or entrepreneurship generally don't attract foreign investment or modernize as well as those that do. Jews adapt and progress - it's in their blood...they've been doing it successfully forever. The arab muslim culture has not adapted and progressed...it is essentially 500-800 years behind the rest of the world, which is a shame, since it used to be a world leader in many things, like medicine, mathematics, etc. There is something in their culture that is holding them back. It is a flaw in their culture and they will continue to suffer until it is corrected, regardless of what appeasers like you and Bitonti say. In this crucial respect, arab muslim culture is inferior to Israel's and the West's. It is not racist to say so and only someone who is paralyzed by political correctness would disagree. Smart peoples learn from other cultures and adopt practices that are superior to their own...it is why we use arabic numerals as opposed to roman numberals and why every culture now recognizes the concept of zero. Roman numberals are not equal or just as valid as arabic numerals, they are worse, period. Arabic numberals are a better system, period. It's the same with the metric system...that is superior to the American system of inches and feet, period. Some of these cultural flaws are minor, some are major. The cultural flaws in the current ME arab muslim culture are major and are what need to be changed...otherwise, pick whatever grievance you want - hateful clerics will always find a grievance to manufacture so we are fooling ourselves if we think we will magically figure out the exact pattern of behavior that will satiate them, unless we all want to face Mecca five times a day and keep our women covered from head to toe.[/QUOTE]

    You have a good point. Israel is largely populated by Jews who have for several generations lived in Western Europe and the USA . They have adapted well in those nations and experienced the benefits of western education and importantly lived in nations that experienced the industrial revolution, something Arab countries never have. A large reason the Arab countries are 100s of years behind is because of exploitation by the west during the turn of the 20th century, a period in time where there was tremendous advances and the industrial revolutiona all of which was denied to the Arab countries because of imperialistic abuse of the people and resources.

    Let me ask you, if the Arab lands were suddenly repopulated by 2nd and 3rd generation Arab-Americans (who BTW have been very successful businessmen, physicians, engineers in the USA) and other Arabs who have spent generations in Europe, do you think the situation would be the same? I doubt it. Thats why saying "look how successful Israel is vs Palestine is a silly comparison. Take away all the western Support Israel had in its creation, take away the foreign aid and protection the USA gives israel and allow only Jews who were native to the land that now makes up Israel to populate Israel and they would be no different than Palestine.

    As for the notion that Arabs do not adapt to living in the USA/Europe. That is laughably incorrect. Arab- Americans are very successful in just about every profession. The # of Arab-American/European physicians i meet every year at medical conferences is unbelievable. This holds true for engineering, business, law and other fields. Discount it if you want, but you are plain wrong about this.

    Another thing, maybe you are too young to remeber but Lebanon was incredibly successful prior to the civil war. Beirut was called the "Monte Carlo of the Middle East" . Tourism flourished, businesses were booming, foreign investment was tremendous. The universities in Lebanon were considere on par to American and European Universities. So to say that "Arabs" inherently can not adapt is plain wrong. It is nothing but prejudice on your part and has no role in discussing success in the ME.
    Last edited by kennyo7; 06-20-2007 at 06:08 PM.

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever] The cultural flaws in the current ME arab muslim culture are major and are what need to be changed....[/QUOTE]

    two questions

    1) since when is it our responsibility to change these societies?

    2) any ideas that might work? the current ones of invading and occupying and hope for the best, flat out suck, hopefully you aren't too far off the deep end to fail to admit that much.

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE]Jews adapt and progress - it's in their blood...they've been doing it successfully forever.[/QUOTE]

    They had no choice. They had no home. They were constantly migrating. The Arabs were not thrown out. They stayed home , but their home was constantly invaded and occupied by others. Big differences. Jews got to experience the progress and changes that others had experienced. Arabs did not.

  13. #33
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    About the author - Robert Fisk:

    Fisk received Amnesty International UK Press Awards in 1998 for his reports from Algeria and again in 2000 for his articles on NATO air campaign against Yugoslavia in 1999. He received the British Press Awards' International Journalist of the Year seven times, and twice won its "Reporter of the Year" award.[14]. More recently, Fisk was awarded the 2006 Lannan Cultural Freedom Prize along with $350,000.[15]

    He was made an honorary Doctor of Laws by the University of St Andrews on June 24, 2004. The Political and Social Sciences department of Ghent University (Belgium) awarded Fisk an honorary doctorate on March 24, 2006. He was also awarded an honorary doctorate by the American University of Beirut in June 2006.

    [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fisk]link[/URL]

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]Why should another country want to accept tons of refugees when they barely have the resources to support their own people??

    I dont see you crying for America to take in refugees from Darfur or Central America. Hell , we a re trying to build walls and get rid of our latin "refugees", why expect them to be any different?[/QUOTE]

    Why, because they live there Jordan was known as Palestine pre Britishrule!
    It is totally different then the US situation.

  15. #35
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    we wanted democracy in the region and begged them to put down their weapons.

    when they elected someone that we didn't like, we cut off their funding

    they responded by picking up their weapons again.

    meanwhile Egypt was a democracy, now moving toward a dictatorship but we don't criticize because they are our friends

    the dictatorship over in Saudi fund the Sunni insurgency in Iraq we don't say boo, (because they our friends) but the dictator in Iran funds Shia insurgency and he's commiting war by proxy.

    oh and let's not forget "president" of Pakistan a.k.a. Nuclear Military Dictator - he's our friend too!

    and people wonder why the region hates us.

    yeah it's our way of life...

    if by way of life we mean playing favorites and meddling in someone else's affairs

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=MnJetFan]Why, because they live there Jordan was known as Palestine pre Britishrule!
    It is totally different then the US situation.[/QUOTE]

    Not at all. The current "Mexicans" lived in the Southwestern USA pre "US Rule".

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=bitonti]we wanted democracy in the region and begged them to put down their weapons.

    when they elected someone that we didn't like, we cut off their funding

    they responded by picking up their weapons again.

    meanwhile Egypt was a democracy, now moving toward a dictatorship but we don't criticize because they are our friends

    the dictatorship over in Saudi fund the Sunni insurgency in Iraq we don't say boo, (because they our friends) but the dictator in Iran funds Shia insurgency and he's commiting war by proxy.

    oh and let's not forget "president" of Pakistan a.k.a. Nuclear Military Dictator - he's our friend too!

    and people wonder why the region hates us.

    yeah it's our way of life...

    if by way of life we mean playing favorites and meddling in someone else's affairs[/QUOTE]

    The hypocrisy is amazing , Bit.

  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=bitonti]no one seems to notice the irony

    Bush pushes for democracy in the Middle East.

    Hamas gets democratically elected.

    We don't recognise them.

    They take the country by force.

    We still don't recognise them.

    Hey hello? This is democracy in action ladies and gentlemen.

    Oh I'm sorry this is my mistake we don't really want the people of the Middle East to choose their own leadership, we want them to choose leaders we want them to choose.

    In other words we want to meddle in their affairs and exact our will upon their lives.

    This is one of the root causes of terrorism. Not crazy brainwashed zealots. Not OBL. It's our interferance, since the days of FDR and Truman that the people of the Middle East resent.

    It's short sighted selfish foreign policy that exploits the region for the best interests of America not the best interests of the people who live there.

    How do we think we can fix the problem?

    With more meddling, of course. :confused:

    it would be funny if it weren't so tragic[/QUOTE]

    of course asking Hamas to remove from their charter the little piece about seeking the total annihalation of Israel, an American ally, before they receive American support, really drives home your point..... :zzz:

  19. #39
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    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY]of course asking Hamas to remove from their charter the little piece about seeking the total annihalation of Israel, an American ally, before they receive American support, really drives home your point..... :zzz:[/QUOTE]

    they elected Hamas, we asked the people to speak and they did!

    note i never said we should support Hamas but i am questioning the logic in giving animals the right to vote, and acting surprised when their versions of Ben Franklin and George Washington don't appear out of thin air.

  20. #40
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    [QUOTE=bitonti]they elected Hamas, we asked the people to speak and they did!

    note i never said we should support Hamas but i am questioning the logic in giving animals the right to vote, and acting surprised when their versions of Ben Franklin and George Washington don't appear out of thin air.[/QUOTE]


    no one is suggesting they elect a modern day version of George Washington....the US government has said stop making the total annihaltion of a democratic state one of your charter goals and we will recognize you...

    how dare America does this!!!

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