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Thread: What is the point of a border fence with Mexico?

  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=bitonti]...there is no way that people crossing a desert to come here and make a better lives for themselves will be stopped by a fence.[/QUOTE]

    The next threat to Homeland Security

    [IMG]http://www.tecratools.com/pages/assorted/graphics/68103l.gif[/IMG]

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=jefethegreat]Illegals do NOT do the jobs citizens don't want. They do the job for a wage that a citizen won't take. In this way, they depress the wages for the lower class. For instance an illegal cook at Applebee's will work for 7.15 hour and a citizen won't, but they would do that job for 13 an hour. The consequences of this are a cheeseburger at Applebee's will be more expensive, but that expense boosts the lower class of the country. So the middle class will expand WITHOUT raising taxes.[/QUOTE]
    works for me

  3. #23
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    How long is it going to take to build this fence?

    We have a hard enough time budgeting and building a few miles of road. We’re even worse at maintaining them. What makes anyone think we can build a wall with some specific function along the entire U.S./Mexican border and then maintain it when we currently have a hard enough time maintaining local municipal projects? Even the oil companies have a hard time maintaining miles of pipeline.

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=bman]Making 10 million poor people (whom the US SYSTEM UTTERLY DEPENDS ON) pay a $5000 fine and leave the country is probably an even more stupid idea than attacking Iraq for no reason.
    A) NO ONE will come forward..so we're in the same exact situation.
    B) If you smoke pot you are breaking the law. Quite frankly, I don't care. I don't want a witch hunt on you. Why would I want to track down some Mexican who snuck across the border to feed his starving family..Everyone here would do the same. Fortunately, we were LUCKY enough to be born here.Something needs to be done. But I just read about thjis booming Idaho town where all these wealthy people are moving..Guess who is building the homes! Hard working illegals. You deport 11 million people you hurt the US economy. Period.[/QUOTE]

    sorry dum[u]bma[/u]ri[u]n[/u]e...this country does not need unskilled illegals
    nor the 25B a year shortfall minimum in taxes vs services provided
    you know, medicaid, schools, prisons
    nor the billions shipped out of our economy abroad, 37B to mehico alone

    we could kick every single one out and wed be better off in every way
    imaginable

    only the government, groups like la raza and the democrat party need them

    mexico has lots of oil let them share the wealth among their citizens

    or give us 100,000 barrels per person in a trade for everyone here - that might work

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=bitonti]this fence is the dumbest idea of the Bush admin and that's saying alot.

    there is no way that people crossing a desert to come here and make a better lives for themselves will be stopped by a fence. No way.

    there are many areas such as rio grande where the cities are the border, private ranches and riivers go right up to the line, what sort of fence can divide a river in half?

    I know alot of people in AZ and NM and these are hardly what anyone would call liberals, quite the contrary they are NRA members die hard GOPers, and every single one of them believes the fence is a joke, a total waste of money.

    If you ask the people who really are local to where the fence is planned, they will tell you how smart it is.

    it's a terrible idea, bound to fail.[/QUOTE]

    didnt you say that about the israeli fence also
    it will work wonderfully once the laser cannons are online

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=jefethegreat]Illegals do NOT do the jobs citizens don't want. [B]They do the job for a wage that a citizen won't take[/B]. In this way, they depress the wages for the lower class. For instance an illegal cook at Applebee's will work for 7.15 hour and a citizen won't, but they would do that job for 13 an hour. The consequences of this are a cheeseburger at Applebee's will be more expensive, but that expense boosts the lower class of the country. So the middle class will expand WITHOUT raising taxes.[/QUOTE]

    Not entirely correct. ITs a wage citizens wont or cant take. Welfare rolls and an inflated min. wage keep citizens from taking these "unwanted" jobs. Someone posted to remove the market for these illegals by penalizing employers. Fine thats a good start, but lets not stop there. Lets keep moving people off welfare and reduce the min wage and you reduce the economic need for employers to hire illegals.
    I wont hold my breath waiting for this to happen.
    In the meantime if building a fence helps, lets get some illegals here at $3/hr to get this done.

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=bman]Making 10 million poor people (whom the US SYSTEM UTTERLY DEPENDS ON) pay a $5000 fine and leave the country is probably an even more stupid idea than attacking Iraq for no reason.
    A) NO ONE will come forward..so we're in the same exact situation.
    B) If you smoke pot you are breaking the law. Quite frankly, I don't care. I don't want a witch hunt on you. Why would I want to track down some Mexican who snuck across the border to feed his starving family..Everyone here would do the same. Fortunately, we were LUCKY enough to be born here.Something needs to be done. But I just read about thjis booming Idaho town where all these wealthy people are moving..Guess who is building the homes! Hard working illegals. [B]You deport 11 million people you hurt the US economy. Period.[/B][/QUOTE]

    That's pure bullsh*t.

    That's what politicians and corporations who support illegal immigration want us to believe. I love the "illegals do work Americans don't want to do," argument. It is a complete falsehood. Pay a fair wage for the jobs and you'll see plenty of [B]able and willing[/B] American and [I]legal[/I] immigrant workers lined up to do the job.

    People will wade knee-deep in dogsh*t if it pays well.

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=sourceworx]That's pure bullsh*t.

    That's what politicians and corporations who support illegal immigration want us to believe. I love the "illegals do work Americans don't want to do," argument. It is a complete falsehood. Pay a fair wage for the jobs and you'll see plenty of [B]able and willing[/B] American and [I]legal[/I] immigrant workers lined up to do the job.

    People will wade knee-deep in dogsh*t if it pays well.[/QUOTE]


    What's a fair wage?

  9. #29
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]What's a fair wage?[/QUOTE]

    Depends on the job within the confines of the law (minimum wage).

    Do you disagree with anything I said?

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=sourceworx]Depends on the job within the confines of the law (minimum wage).

    Do you disagree with anything I said?[/QUOTE]


    Why is the minimum wage fair?

    I disagree to the extent that this is what we should expect when we create laws like the minimum wage. Price contols or floors do not work. MW laws are an artificial price floor on labor. The work illegal immigrants do is not worth the minimum wage. A 'fair' wage is any wage that two parties mutually and freely agree to. US workers cannot compete with illegals because they are prevented from doing so by the blunt and brute force of the government. Firms are going to respond by (1) hiring fewer workers (2) raising prices (3) outsourcing or (4) hiring illegal workers.

    Illegal workers currently [I]do[/I] depress wages for our lowest-skilled workers here, but MW laws increase unemployment among our lowest-skilled workers by stripping them of the only leverage they have to compete with other workers for jobs...i.e., to be willing to work for less money. There is a risk involved with hiring illegals but the fact is that the price of that labor is so much lower than the artificial MW price that firms decide it is worth it. Plus, savings in cost are passed through via lower prices, which spurs consumption, helps keep GDP strong and politicians elected, and firms like the profits due to lower prices and higher volume of sales and politicians like being "nice" to the relatives and associates of the largest growing ethnic voting block in this country. What we should do is (1) repeal all MW laws, (2) simultaneously actually enforce laws against hiring illegals, which will be much easier since firms can actually pay what is a truly "fair" wage without worry about price floors for labor, (3) make legal immigration much, much more straightforward and easy and (4) start securing the borders and getting tough on illegals we discover there and in other aspects of our society (traffic stops, etc.). I suspect that the wages low-skilled Americans could demand would be higher than those currently paid to unskilled Mexicans, especially if the borders are enforced, hiring illegals is enforced and illegal immigrants who are here already figure out that there is no more work for them. Everyone talks of arresting or deporting, but that costs money. Just make it illegal to hire any illegal immigrant that doesn't have a work permit...they've left countries to find work before, they know how to do it. They've disrupted families to find work before, they know how to do it. They'll simply discover that they can't work and they are sure as sh*t not going to get any benefits from the state. The only, only, only, only benefit they'd get from the state would be the fare for transportation back to their home country and even that is probably too much. No more ER freebies and any landlord who rents to an illegal would be fined and/or imprisoned, depending on their specific record. If illegals want to work here, let them come here legally and we should help them by making that process easier and more straightforward for everyone, not just Mexicans because our stupid department actually prevents many high-skilled professionals from staying and working here and since our kids can't do math anymore, we need high-skilled immigrants more than we need landscapers, long term. We can produce landscapers at home long-term, that is a pricing phenomonon, professionals are, sadly, being supplied less and less by our failing government-controlled education system.

    We need to couple all of this with open and free trade among as many nations as possible, increasing foreign investment in Mexico and helping to raise their standards of living there, so that we will be relatively less attractive as time goes on. It will likely be an iterative process where we will have to try things and re-evaluate and fine-tune our approach as time goes on.
    Last edited by jets5ever; 06-29-2007 at 11:42 AM.

  11. #31
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    if the government was tougher on the corporations that employ illegals this wouldn't be an issue. It's a joke when the feds raid a meat packing plant and ship all the illegals back to Mexico - what they should be doing is heavily fining the companies. It's like the war on drugs. Trying to control the supply is stupid, they should be working on controlling the demand.

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=bman] You deport 11 million people you hurt the US economy. Period.[/QUOTE]

    That is a point that is really open to debate...while some jobs might go unfilled, a great many of these illegals do NOT pay taxes or have health insurance. That means that everyone else picks up the tab for education, health care and any social services they consume.

    You could just as easily make the case that deporting them would help the economy.

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Why is the minimum wage fair?

    I disagree to the extent that this is what we should expect when we create laws like the minimum wage. Price contols or floors do not work. MW laws are an artificial price floor on labor. The work illegal immigrants do is not worth the minimum wage. A 'fair' wage is any wage that two parties mutually and freely agree to. US workers cannot compete with illegals because they are prevented from doing so by the blunt and brute force of the government. Firms are going to respond by (1) hiring fewer workers (2) raising prices (3) outsourcing or (4) hiring illegal workers.
    Illegal workers currently [I]do[/I] depress wages for our lowest-skilled workers here, but MW laws increase unemployment among our lowest-skilled workers by stripping them of the only leverage they have to compete with other workers for jobs...i.e., to be willing to work for less money. There is a risk involved with hiring illegals but the fact is that the price of that labor is so much lower than the artificial MW price that firms decide it is worth it. Plus, savings in cost are passed through via lower prices, which spurs consumption, helps keep GDP strong and politicians elected, and firms like the profits due to lower prices and higher volume of sales and politicians like being "nice" to the relatives and associates of the largest growing ethnic voting block in this country. What we should do is (1) repeal all MW laws, (2) simultaneously actually enforce laws against hiring illegals, which will be much easier since firms can actually pay what is a truly "fair" wage without worry about price floors for labor, (3) make legal immigration much, much more straightforward and easy and (4) start securing the borders and getting tough on illegals we discover there and in other aspects of our society (traffic stops, etc.). I suspect that the wages low-skilled Americans could demand would be higher than those currently paid to unskilled Mexicans, especially if the borders are enforced, hiring illegals is enforced and illegal immigrants who are here already figure out that there is no more work for them. Everyone talks of arresting or deporting, but that costs money. Just make it illegal to hire any illegal immigrant that doesn't have a work permit...they've left countries to find work before, they know how to do it. They've disrupted families to find work before, they know how to do it. If they want to work here, let them come here legally and we should help them by making that process easier and more straightforward.


    We need to couple all of this with open and free trade among as many nations as possible, increasing foreign investment in Mexico and helping to raise their standards of living there, so that we will be relatively less attractive as time goes on. It will likely be an iterative process where we will have to try things and re-evaluate and fine-tune our approach as time goes on.[/QUOTE]

    I'm not arguing that minimum wage is good or bad (I actually agree with you.) I only mention minimum wage because that is the law as it is now. Unskilled labor wages should not be raised/lowered by the government. The market should determine them.

    But to say that illegals do work that Americans won't is untrue. Americans won't do those jobs because illegals are getting paid absurdly low wages and unskilled American workers can do better elsewhere.

    If the government would crack down on people and companies that hire illegals, you'd see wages for this type of work rise and there would be no shortage of people (American citizens or legal aliens) willing to do the work.

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=sourceworx]I'm not arguing that minimum wage is good or bad (I actually agree with you.) I only mention minimum wage because that is the law as it is now. Unskilled labor wages should not be raised/lowered by the government. The market should determine them.

    But to say that illegals do work that Americans won't is untrue. Americans won't do those jobs because illegals are getting paid absurdly low wages and unskilled American workers can do better elsewhere.

    If the government would crack down on people and companies that hire illegals, you'd see wages for this type of work rise and there would be no shortage of people (American citizens or legal aliens) willing to do the work.[/QUOTE]


    I never said they do work Americans won't do...I agree with you on that point. This is a pricing phenomenon where firms and Americans workers are not allowed to negotiate a wage freely, as they should be. I agree that the simultaneous repeal of MW and crackdowns on firms that hire illegals (and landlords who rent to them) would raise wages for these jobs and that Americans and legals would fill many of them. Agree 100%. However, MW laws and even raising them are politically popular, so it takes real courage and convnicing eloquence to repeal them, which is why it won't happen. The left will demonize anyone who even tries and people are so ignorant of many things, including basic ecnomics, that no career politician will think it is worth the effort.

    We have accepted government control over so many aspects of our lives on such an incremental basis, that people don't think clearly about what the brute and blunt force of government is doing to us. And now there seems to be talk of ceding healthcare decisions to the government, even more than they already control?? (sigh) But that's another discussion entirely.....
    Last edited by jets5ever; 06-29-2007 at 11:58 AM.

  15. #35
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    [IMG]http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/media_content/m-3345.jpg[/IMG]

    The free market dictated my wages. Boy, are they awesome!

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan][IMG]http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/media_content/m-3345.jpg[/IMG]

    The free market dictated my wages. Boy, are they awesome![/QUOTE]
    No, the free market did not dictate their wages, there is nothing "free" about a market for slaves, which are not free participants in that market, making the market itself unfree by definition.

    I know this was an attempt at humor, but it hints towards a lack of basic understanding (hopefully I am wrong about that)...and, I guess I just don't find it as funny as your stuff usually is...whatev. (my wife has been saying "whatev" lately...drives me batty!)

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]No, the free market did not dictate their wages, there is nothing "free" about a market for slaves, which are not free participants in that market, making the market itself unfree by definition.

    I know this was an attempt at humor, but it hints towards a lack of basic understanding (hopefully I am wrong about that)...and, I guess I just don't find it as funny as your stuff usually is...whatev. (my wife has been saying "whatev" lately...drives me batty!)[/QUOTE]


    Of course it hints at a lack of basic understanding. I'm an idiot.

    I just happen to know a few people who are deemed unusefull and unskilled by our free market and would probably immediately get their meager paychecks cut in half in minimum wage were to be abolished. And since poor folks who live in flyover country have no portfolios to diversify or funds to hedge, I worry about the well being and ability to pay their bills.

    Of course they could always get three jobs, or go to Marist and learn a skill such as Administrative Assistant or Assistant Human Resources Assistant Manager to the Assistant to better themselves.

    But what these people lack in all important clerical skills and paper pushing prowess they make up with the most important facet of human existence. The family. Children. The most important part of American culture. That is why many of them who work in unskilled labor positions prefer to work only the one job. Because nothing is more important in life then spending as much time as possible with your kids. And while they may not have much and may not contribute significantly enough to society, they are happy. A lot happier than people who aspire to be workaholics and vigorously climb to the top of the management ladder. It may put them at a disadvantage and it may shorten their lifespan. But they have their family.

    So if our overbearing government puts a price on the most important part of our country, its people...than so be it. I don't trust the government...but I definitely don't trust corporations who engage in Friday afternoon parking lot firings and CEO pay benefiting worker benefit and pay cuts to do good by the biggest asset they take for granted the most. The free market may be the biggest catalyst for our freedom here in the US...but a free market wouldn't be worth anything without the men, women and children of this country.

    Keep in mind, I'm just a run of the mill citizen. I attended no college. Shoot, I barely graduated high school because I was too busy working a full time job in 12th grade. The only things I know about economics I learn from people like you and from Sam Waterson in those TD Waterhouse commercials...

  18. #38
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    Haliburton needs another no-bid contract!


    :D

  19. #39
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    [QUOTE=bitonti]if the government was tougher on the corporations that employ illegals this wouldn't be an issue. It's a joke when the feds raid a meat packing plant and ship all the illegals back to Mexico - what they should be doing is heavily fining the companies. It's like the war on drugs. Trying to control the supply is stupid, they should be working on controlling the demand.[/QUOTE]

    so then you agree with a reduction in the min wage ( in addition to fining corps?), in order to keep prices stable as employers replace illegals with low skilled citizens and of course pay their fines? This will surely affect the demand.

  20. #40
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan]Of course it hints at a lack of basic understanding. I'm an idiot.

    I just happen to know a few people who are deemed unusefull and unskilled by our free market and would probably immediately get their meager paychecks cut in half in minimum wage were to be abolished. And since poor folks who live in flyover country have no portfolios to diversify or funds to hedge, I worry about the well being and ability to pay their bills.

    Of course they could always get three jobs, or go to Marist and learn a skill such as Administrative Assistant or Assistant Human Resources Assistant Manager to the Assistant to better themselves.

    But what these people lack in all important clerical skills and paper pushing prowess they make up with the most important facet of human existence. The family. Children. The most important part of American culture. That is why many of them who work in unskilled labor positions prefer to work only the one job. Because nothing is more important in life then spending as much time as possible with your kids. And while they may not have much and may not contribute significantly enough to society, they are happy. A lot happier than people who aspire to be workaholics and vigorously climb to the top of the management ladder. It may put them at a disadvantage and it may shorten their lifespan. But they have their family.

    So if our overbearing government puts a price on the most important part of our country, its people...than so be it. I don't trust the government...but I definitely don't trust corporations who engage in Friday afternoon parking lot firings and CEO pay benefiting worker benefit and pay cuts to do good by the biggest asset they take for granted the most. The free market may be the biggest catalyst for our freedom here in the US...but a free market wouldn't be worth anything without the men, women and children of this country.

    Keep in mind, I'm just a run of the mill citizen. I attended no college. Shoot, I barely graduated high school because I was too busy working a full time job in 12th grade. The only things I know about economics I learn from people like you and from Sam Waterson in those TD Waterhouse commercials...[/QUOTE]

    Let me see if I understand, so, you are saying that you know heads of households who earn the minimum wage and have been doing so for a period of years and who have been consistently employed during that time and yet have neither gotten any raises nor improved their skills whatsoever during all of this long work experience? Is that what you are saying? If so, those people are very much exceptions, since most heads of households do NOT earn just the MW and those that do and remain employed consistently do not continue to earn just the MW very long at all.

    There are two ways to get skills, in simple terms. Well, three, really. (1) You can get educated. (2) You can start out working with no skills and develop them on the job, over time as you gain experience. (3) You are simply one of the lucky ones who is born smart as hell and things come naturally to you.

    I find it difficult to believe that these people have been working this long and yet don't have any skills. Why don't they have skills after all this time? Look at you, you have no college degree and had to work during high school which cut into your stufy time, yet you have developed skills as a plumber and apartment manager, right?

    I agree with you about the most important thing being the family. But what you don't understand is that "the market" is not some faceless, detached, shadowy monolith that secretly controls things from afar, with little care about individuals or individual family units. The market IS those individuals and is those family units. The market is millions and millions of buyers and sellers and workers and employees interacting freely. And I agree that family time is the most important thing and I try VERY hard to ensure that I spend enough time with mine and I do not want to work 80 hour weeks to climb the ladder a few rungs higher. However, I have spent a lot of time and money on my education and have also taken the initiative to learn and develop skills on the job, to supplement that education. If these people have no education (do they even have GEDs?) AND they haven't taken the initiative to develop skills while on the job, what does that say about them as people, as parents, as spouses? I don't think they are bad men at all, I just don't have much sympathy for their low wages and would disagree that the fatc that they spend time with their families means that these deficiencies aren't also important...I mean, what do they do, go into work and d*ck around, just doing enough to not get fired but never enough to actually show that they give a sh*t about anything other than their paycheck? Part of being a good family man is supporting your family and being a positive role model for your children and part of doing that is having pride in your work and caring about developing your skills and wanting your children to have better lives than you did. It has nothing to do with how much money you make, but rather your attitude about work in general. There are a lot of people who earn good livings and who don't have work crazy hours. But while they are at work, they are proactively trying to learn more and develop more skills. This country is filled with rags to riches stories about people in upper management who started out in the stock room, about poor kids from the Bronx being CEOs and all. Hell, the General Counsel of my firm is from Roxbury Massachussetts (which is a rough place) and came from a broken home and didn't go to Harvard and worked two jobs while he went to Suffolk Law School and now he's GC. Again, look at you, you have developed skills, likely because you are a hardworker who gave a sh*t about getting them.

    There is virtue in hard work and if these people are hard workers who, for whatever reason, happen to not be able to develop skills, so be it. But I wonder if you asked them honestly to look into their souls and tell you if they've done all they can do, what they'd say. I suspect that the reason their wages are low is not due to some nefarious market, but rather because they've never bothered to develop them. If you're a dedicated, hard worker who takes the initiative to learn skills, you'll do fine and won't need MW laws.

    The old system of getting a raise simply due to time employed is going away because it has always been an inefficient model since it does not incentivise actual production. If I can produce more in 5 hours than you produce in 7, I should get paid more than you. If I develop more skills than you in half the time on the job, I should get promoted over you. The union notion and old-school factory work notion of raises and promotions based upon tenure is pathetic and does not reward excellence or create competent managers. Unfortunately, many people feel like the world owes them something and that they should get paid more simply because they've been at a firm for x number of years, even though they aren't any more productive then they first were when they started.

    Put it this way. Would you hire a guy who has no skills and give him raises each year, especially if he just does the bare minimum at work and has shown no initiative to learn more skills? What if times are tight at your firm and you are stressed and working longer hours due to lower sales and various other challenges and as the owner, your take has gone down...would you still give this guy a raise? No, and it would be unreasonable for anyone to expect you to. People act like all firms owners are millionaires who laugh sinisterly while they twirl their mustaches and burn hundred dollar bills, but most businesses fail, even big ones fail and we Americans reap the benefits of the aggregate output and innovations of the risk-taking entrepreneurs in this country.

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