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Thread: Further discussion about Health Care as a "Right"

  1. #61
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]And what do these Scandanavian countries have, 16 million residents or so?[/QUOTE]


    As did Canada when the health care system was thriving. Now, our population has doubled, and people want what they used to have without paying more for it.

  2. #62
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    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]True. I wasn't intending to be insulting with my comment..I apologize if it sounded that way...I was just expressing surprise to hear your post. You summarized all of the things I believe would happen with a socialized health care system in the US.[/QUOTE]


    Gotcha. And yes, it would fail miserably for a country your size, just like it would in India, China, etc....



    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]If Canada won't give up universal health care (your variation of it anyway), then Canadians need to be aware that the situation is NOT going to improve any time soon, if ever.[/QUOTE]

    I agree. I am not saying that there is not a problem, I am just saying that because the vast majority of this country knows nothing BUT a universal health care system, they can't see it any other way.

    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]What I am perplexed by is that you SEE the problem, but refuse to acknowledge the solution...which is to release private enterprise to run a system in the best interests of the people (yup...you guessed, capitalism).[/QUOTE]

    First off, most don't SEE the problem, which in and of itself is a problem. Second, and there is no way of saying this I don't think without ruffling someones feathers is this: Just as universal health care is considered by many one of THE things great about Canada, so it is with America with capitalism. As an outsider, it seems it is THE answer for everything. LIke you have a great perspective on the flaws in our health care system, I have a perspective on the flaws of capitalism. I am not saying capitalism is evil, and I never have through all the debates about it here, I just have a different perspective about the U.S.'s ideal version of capitalism. Many cultures, countries, and societies thrived without it, and many cultures, countries and societies thrived while doing different things. It is not the way for EVERYONE to live. If it works for you, great. But it has not worked for everyone, and I don't believe it can work for everyone. So, that said, it is tough for me, and for many, to see clearly on this particular issue because Universal Health Care is rooted in Canadiana. I believe capitalism can benefit the situation, but I also think if we turn it over completely, we are in trouble, just like we have been the past five years since the privatization of our water, hydro, natural gas...etc.






    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]Listen to all the answers given above, and think of why they occurred:

    1. Not enough physicians

    Of course there aren't....the number of people that want to learn an esteemable and valuable trade is of course going to be less when they realize that they have no autonomy or control over their income or their life. Throw in the fact as I have stated numerous times in this thread that after training Canadian Physicians leave for the US...why is that? The answer is obvious.

    Then, there is part two of this answer, which begins with another question...is there really a shortage of physicians in Canada? Or is there no impetus to work?

    While I am not certain, I would bet serious money that physicians in Canada work significantly less hours than private physicians here in the US...I would wager up to 50% less hours/week or time period. I've seen studies that suggest that the average Canadian physician works 40-50 hours/week which is far less than the average American private practice physician. Just increasing the work hours by 50% would increase physician supply by the same amount...it would cost more, but that's the rub. People are not motivated to work if they are not being adequately compensated, and really, why should they?[/QUOTE]

    I'm not sure how to answer this. Most Canadian doctors make over $100,000. To me, that's a pretty good wage for 40 hours a week. Is it not dangerous to have a physician putting in 80 hours a week? Truck drivers, pilots etc.. all have regulations against flying or driving too much for safety reasons. Wouldn't it make sense to have that for doctors?



    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]Let's dissect it...

    You say that people NEED healthcare, and I agree. To say someone NEEDS something (not WANTS something) means that it should have a pretty high value placed on it, correct? Shouldn't it surpass all other WANTS in life?

    OK, now onto the next part...[b]but they shouldn't have to mortgage their house to get it[/b]. Hmmm.....they own a house? How did they buy that house, I mean, they must have assets, right? Is owning a house a requirement for life? Can't they rent? Why should their house be 'protected', but my rights to earn a living be 'infringed'? Should they have to sell their TV's? Cars? Disconnect cableTV? Or, are all those things 'protected' too? Where does it end, and who decides? Part of me is being facetious, but only to a certain extent.

    If society as a whole NEEDS healthcare, then society should go out of it's way to ensure that the supply of healthcare is not artificially restricted...it only makes sense. Why would you want anyone, government included, to control something you NEED...and then on top of it all, let it place restrictions on it's availability by controlling expenditures? What sense does that make?

    If you are a seminary student, then I would hope that you would believe that the best way for the maximum number of people to benefit from any healthcare system would be to unshackle it and let it grow....and then trust in the goodness of the human soul to ensure that the lesser among us also participate..it's called 'charity', which as I said used to be prevalent here in the US until the government got involved in health care (not to mention the lawyers, but that for another thread...providing free health care is one thing, but to do it ands still have to assume the legal liability for it absolutely sucks).[/QUOTE]

    Let me be the first to agree with most of this. Yes, it is mind-boggling how people b**ch that they can't afford something, or have to pay for something, when they have two cars, six video games, etc...

    In Canada, it is even more expensive to own a home since we cannot write the interest of the mortgage off on our taxes. However, to rent compared to home ownership gets into a sticky discussion, considering the push by many (Macleans national magazine had an article recently saying we should be buying homes to help our economy) to promote home ownership as a means to helping our economy.

    But yes, on the whole, people need to realize they cannot have everything. If you want health care, you need to pay for it, period.

    One other concern for this matter is this: in order for the Canadian health care to go private, Canadians would want to see a HUGE decrease in personal income tax in order to help pay for it. As of right now, the average Canadian works six months for himself, and six months in paying taxes here.

    [/QUOTE]

  3. #63
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    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Gotcha. And yes, it would fail miserably for a country your size, just like it would in India, China, etc....[/quote]

    I agree. I would argue that it would fail ANYWHERE tried eventually, but I suspect you might disagree.



    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]I agree. I am not saying that there is not a problem, I am just saying that because the vast majority of this country knows nothing BUT a universal health care system, they can't see it any other way.[/quote]

    That is frustrating, and a problem I'll admit...but it takes people to speak out and not just the healthcare recipients; if the Doctors of Canada go along without speaking up, then you have a bigger problem. Are the Doctors in Canada able to unionize? What if they all said 'Nuts!"?

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]First off, most don't SEE the problem, which in and of itself is a problem.[/quote]

    Yes, it is....but they will see the problem as time progresses. Part of the issue is that there is a problem with 'realization' in health care issues because for most people on any given day or year, they don't need it.

    What I mean is, if your car breaks down or your AC goes out...you notice it..and things like that happen much more frequently than most people need significant health care. For most 'healthy' individuals say between ages 20 and 40, most probably don't go to a Doctor most years. It's easy to think there's no problem when you never have to use the service. It's only when something catastrophic happens that you pay attention.

    But, get told you need a coronary bypass and then realize you are going to wait 6 months ot get it..now you see the problem. Have a GP find cancer and then have to wait 6 weeks to see a specialist? Problem.

    I would find being in this position totally helpless...realizing I had a problem but having no control over who I would see and when I would see them, or control over wanting some care not authorized by the government would terrify me. Of course if I had some money I could grab my checkbook and head to the US, but why should that be necessary? How do people cede control over this most important part of their life to a nameless, faceless government employee?

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve] Second, and there is no way of saying this I don't think without ruffling someones feathers is this: Just as universal health care is considered by many one of THE things great about Canada, so it is with America with capitalism.[/quote]

    Why would anyone in Canada be enamored with, and proud of, a system that displays the problems we have all elucidated here?

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve] As an outsider, it seems it is THE answer for everything. LIke you have a great perspective on the flaws in our health care system, I have a perspective on the flaws of capitalism.[/quote]

    You have stated that you have a problem with capitalism to an extent, but I do not believe you have specifically detailed any 'flaws'....in your opinion, what are they?

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve] I am not saying capitalism is evil, and I never have through all the debates about it here, I just have a different perspective about the U.S.'s ideal version of capitalism. Many cultures, countries, and societies thrived without it, and many cultures, countries and societies thrived while doing different things.[/quote]

    Name one as successful for the vast majority of it's citizens as the US. It cannot be done.

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve] It is not the way for EVERYONE to live. If it works for you, great. But it has not worked for everyone, and I don't believe it can work for everyone. [/quote]

    Why?

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]So, that said, it is tough for me, and for many, to see clearly on this particular issue because Universal Health Care is rooted in Canadiana. I believe capitalism can benefit the situation, but I also think if we turn it over completely, we are in trouble, just like we have been the past five years since the privatization of our water, hydro, natural gas...etc.
    [/quote]

    Not knowing what the problems are with the privatization of the water, gas etc in Canada, but I would wager that you believe the problem is that it 'costs too much' after the government relinquished control. But that's just a guess.

    In actuality, I would wager that Canadians are actually now seeing what it truly costs to provide those services WITHOUT government subsidization..the government was losing it's shorts right? Otherwise, why would the governent relinquish control of these services?

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]I'm not sure how to answer this. Most Canadian doctors make over $100,000. To me, that's a pretty good wage for 40 hours a week. [/quote]

    But that's not the question, is it? It doesn't matter what you believe about the pay of physicians, it matters what the physicians (and potential physicians) think since they're doing the work...24/7/365. If the people doing the work believe it isn't 'worth it' then they quit, so something else, emigrate, work less....none of these is helpful for Canada or it's citizens.

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Is it not dangerous to have a physician putting in 80 hours a week? Truck drivers, pilots etc.. all have regulations against flying or driving too much for safety reasons. Wouldn't it make sense to have that for doctors?[/quote]

    Interesting question, and the answer is changing.

    When I trained, 80 hours was an 'average' week...but it ain't any more due to regulations for trainees. You can look at this in multiple ways...more work is more exposure and education. More work prepares one for the mental challenges of fatigue, and honestly there is no way to avoid that in medicine. Will the younger residents with limited work weeks be able to log extra hours? Will they want to? Will they be as experienced? We'll see.

    I'm a concientious person, and if I ever believed I wasn't 'safe', I'd go home...I know my limits.

    But you have to consider the economic aspect too...if someone assumes $250K debt and doesnt' make any significant money until they are over 30, you gotta work to pay it off and still save for retirement (and pay the god-danged taxes).

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Let me be the first to agree with most of this. Yes, it is mind-boggling how people b**ch that they can't afford something, or have to pay for something, when they have two cars, six video games, etc...[/quote]

    Yes it is.

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]But yes, on the whole, people need to realize they cannot have everything. If you want health care, you need to pay for it, period.

    One other concern for this matter is this: in order for the Canadian health care to go private, Canadians would want to see a HUGE decrease in personal income tax in order to help pay for it. As of right now, the average Canadian works six months for himself, and six months in paying taxes here.

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, if you are paying 10% in taxes jsut for health care, why wouldn't you see a decrease? Who works for whom in Canada between the people and the government?

    Believe me, it is becoming an issue here in the US too....politicians think they are royalty, elected for life. Soon after hitting Washington most seem to forget just who elected them and why they were elected...so it's not only a problem in Canada.

  4. #64
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    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]

    Yes, it is....but they will see the problem as time progresses. Part of the issue is that there is a problem with 'realization' in health care issues because for most people on any given day or year, they don't need it.

    What I mean is, if your car breaks down or your AC goes out...you notice it..and things like that happen much more frequently than most people need significant health care. For most 'healthy' individuals say between ages 20 and 40, most probably don't go to a Doctor most years. It's easy to think there's no problem when you never have to use the service. It's only when something catastrophic happens that you pay attention.

    But, get told you need a coronary bypass and then realize you are going to wait 6 months ot get it..now you see the problem. Have a GP find cancer and then have to wait 6 weeks to see a specialist? Problem.

    I would find being in this position totally helpless...realizing I had a problem but having no control over who I would see and when I would see them, or control over wanting some care not authorized by the government would terrify me. Of course if I had some money I could grab my checkbook and head to the US, but why should that be necessary? How do people cede control over this most important part of their life to a nameless, faceless government employee?[/QUOTE]

    That to me is a scary aspect of where we are at. I had a hernia a few years ago. About three months ago, I was getting some severe pain in the region, and went for a scan. In doing so, they said my bladder wasn't fully emptying when I took a leak, so I was to see a specialist. I had to wait six weeks to see him. When I went, he was over three hours behind in his appointments, which I couldn't stay for because of child care issues. So I had to reschedule, waiting another six weeks.

    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]Why would anyone in Canada be enamored with, and proud of, a system that displays the problems we have all elucidated here?[/QUOTE]

    Again, this is a system that defined Canada. When I make my comments about capitalism, I mean a neo-liberalist-slant to capitalism. True Capitalism, if ever followed, could work...but I don't see that. So again, for me as an outsider, I ask "why can't people see how this is going to fail if they keep on this path.?" You ask "why can't people see how this is going to fail if they keep on this path?" Same idea.

    Another point is, people don't think they are paying for health care. It is free, remember? I don't think they make the conscience connection to the taxes we pay for health care, since a bill doesn't come to their door to pay for it.

    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]You have stated that you have a problem with capitalism to an extent, but I do not believe you have specifically detailed any 'flaws'....in your opinion, what are they?[/QUOTE]

    Again, this could take up about ten pages of writing, and I don't think we would get anywhere. May I suggest a book, that might help explain it. Small is Beautiful by E.F. Schumacher

    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]Name one as successful for the vast majority of it's citizens as the US. It cannot be done.[/QUOTE]

    Again, it has been successful to a point, but with its many successes, I see many failures that cannot not be apart from said successes.


    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]Not knowing what the problems are with the privatization of the water, gas etc in Canada, but I would wager that you believe the problem is that it 'costs too much' after the government relinquished control. But that's just a guess.

    In actuality, I would wager that Canadians are actually now seeing what it truly costs to provide those services WITHOUT government subsidization..the government was losing it's shorts right? Otherwise, why would the governent relinquish control of these services?[/QUOTE]

    Actually, because profit now has come into play (because of privatization), costs have sky-rocketed, do the doubling in costs in the past four years.

    The government did not lose much money at all, they just didn't make any either. It was more a bowing to neo-liberalist ideals set in place by Brian Mulroney, who was PM at the time Reagan was Pres...

    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]But that's not the question, is it? It doesn't matter what you believe about the pay of physicians, it matters what the physicians (and potential physicians) think since they're doing the work...24/7/365. If the people doing the work believe it isn't 'worth it' then they quit, so something else, emigrate, work less....none of these is helpful for Canada or it's citizens.[/QUOTE]

    To be honest, I wasn't following the original question. My comment was more on the fact that to work 40 hours a week and get paid $100,000 a year, to me, would seem like an incentive NOT to work extra hours. If I can pull in that kind of money for 40 hours, why kill myself to make three-four times that, but not be able to enjoy it?


    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]Well, if you are paying 10% in taxes just for health care, why wouldn't you see a decrease? Who works for whom in Canada between the people and the government?[/QUOTE]

    Thats the problem. If the government is going to say "okay, you need to pay for your own health care," there would have to be a SIGNIFICANT tax cut to coincide with that, or there would be some lynching going on in Ottawa.

    The GST (Goods and Service Tax), a six percent tax on all goods-services to coincide with PST (provincial sales tax) on all goods-services, was created almost twenty years ago to eliminate the deficit. Once the deficit was eliminated, it would be rescinded. There has been enough money come in that that should be the case, however....

    So, just like most places, we don't trust our governments. It is a sad state that democracy for the people really isn't that.

    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]Believe me, it is becoming an issue here in the US too....politicians think they are royalty, elected for life. Soon after hitting Washington most seem to forget just who elected them and why they were elected...so it's not only a problem in Canada.[/QUOTE]

    Again, to me politics and business do not make a good mix, and here lies some problems (here anyway)

    If we use the philosophies of Adam Smith to their intent, and two competitors are on an even playing field, whoever makes the better product at the better price is going to win...as it should.

    However, when corporations are getting under-the-table deals while the small guy is having to toe some over-the-top guidelines, how is that democracy? At one time, Canada taxed businesses heavily for environmental purposes, infrastructure, etc....which in turn meant the citizens were taxed less. This meant they had more to spend, and the citizens were VERY, VERY, VERY loyal to Canadian made products. I can still remember it being a "sin" to buy ANYTHING foreign, because these companies, through their taxes and offering solid employment, created a high standard of living here. In return, people would ONLY buy their products, which kept the ball rolling.

    Now, we have no loyalty whatsoever, and taxes of companies, corporations, etc... are minimal, leaving the burden to the citizen, who does not have the purchasing power he once did, so he/she is not loyal at all to the businesses, who are not loyal to the citizens...etc. etc.

    Was that off topic? It might have been.
    So Green, where do you live in the U.S.?

  5. #65
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    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]That to me is a scary aspect of where we are at. I had a hernia a few years ago. About three months ago, I was getting some severe pain in the region, and went for a scan. In doing so, they said my bladder wasn't fully emptying when I took a leak, so I was to see a specialist. I had to wait six weeks to see him. When I went, he was over three hours behind in his appointments, which I couldn't stay for because of child care issues. So I had to reschedule, waiting another six weeks.
    [/quote]

    I cannot believe people put up with stuff like this. I diagnosed my own hernia while in the military system, and scheduled it to be fixed the following week.

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Again, this is a system that defined Canada. When I make my comments about capitalism, I mean a neo-liberalist-slant to capitalism. True Capitalism, if ever followed, could work...but I don't see that. So again, for me as an outsider, I ask "why can't people see how this is going to fail if they keep on this path.?" You ask "why can't people see how this is going to fail if they keep on this path?" Same idea.[/quote]

    Except that for us, with a quasi-free market system at the base of health care in the US [b]may[/b] be able to change before it's too late. And, capitalism, if it is allowed to function, always works. Maybe not for everybody, but for the majority (but isn't this the way most things work?).

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Another point is, people don't think they are paying for health care. It is free, remember? I don't think they make the conscience connection to the taxes we pay for health care, since a bill doesn't come to their door to pay for it.[/quote]

    This is one of the most aggregious things implemented by government, apparently both here and there.

    In the US, after the introduction of 'payroll deduction' of taxes, we get many of the same feelings...people never 'see' the money, so they suppose it was never 'theirs'...it is a lie. I always believed that federal taxes ought to be due, and paid out of pocket the first Monday in the month of November here in the states...which of course is the day before election day. I pay almost $100K/yr in taxes...think I'd like to write a check for that amount to the government every November? would anybody?

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Again, this could take up about ten pages of writing, and I don't think we would get anywhere. May I suggest a book, that might help explain it. Small is Beautiful by E.F. Schumacher
    [/quote]

    I'm an avid reader, I'll take a look

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Actually, because profit now has come into play (because of privatization), costs have sky-rocketed, do the doubling in costs in the past four years.

    The government did not lose much money at all, they just didn't make any either. It was more a bowing to neo-liberalist ideals set in place by Brian Mulroney, who was PM at the time Reagan was Pres...
    [/quote]

    If these companies are gouging the citizens, why haven't any competitors jumped in?

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]To be honest, I wasn't following the original question. My comment was more on the fact that to work 40 hours a week and get paid $100,000 a year, to me, would seem like an incentive NOT to work extra hours. If I can pull in that kind of money for 40 hours, why kill myself to make three-four times that, but not be able to enjoy it?[/quote]

    The problem is not that someone would not want to work the extra hours for the extra pay....the problem is that most people wouldn't want to work the extra hours if they have to pay 50% or more of the extra income in TAXES.

    I only recently began working a second job, and I will do it only as long as my children are in college...after that, I'm going to play more golf....I'm not working more hours just so the government can make an extra 40% of my income.

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Thats the problem. If the government is going to say "okay, you need to pay for your own health care," there would have to be a SIGNIFICANT tax cut to coincide with that, or there would be some lynching going on in Ottawa.

    The GST (Goods and Service Tax), a six percent tax on all goods-services to coincide with PST (provincial sales tax) on all goods-services, was created almost twenty years ago to eliminate the deficit. Once the deficit was eliminated, it would be rescinded. There has been enough money come in that that should be the case, however....[/quote]

    Like the toll roads that pay for the bridge, and then never end or get decreased...it is part of the power of government and taxation and it is evil. It needs to be fought at every turn.

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]So, just like most places, we don't trust our governments. It is a sad state that democracy for the people really isn't that.[/quote]

    Well, actually we are not a democracy...we are a constitutional, representative republic with democratic features (not that means anything to the average American). A democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner...not advisable.

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Again, to me politics and business do not make a good mix, and here lies some problems (here anyway)

    If we use the philosophies of Adam Smith to their intent, and two competitors are on an even playing field, whoever makes the better product at the better price is going to win...as it should.[/quote]

    You should have stopped here....

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]However, when corporations are getting under-the-table deals while the small guy is having to toe some over-the-top guidelines, how is that democracy? At one time, Canada taxed businesses heavily for environmental purposes, infrastructure, etc....which in turn meant the citizens were taxed less. This meant they had more to spend, and the citizens were VERY, VERY, VERY loyal to Canadian made products. I can still remember it being a "sin" to buy ANYTHING foreign, because these companies, through their taxes and offering solid employment, created a high standard of living here. In return, people would ONLY buy their products, which kept the ball rolling.

    Now, we have no loyalty whatsoever, and taxes of companies, corporations, etc... are minimal, leaving the burden to the citizen, who does not have the purchasing power he once did, so he/she is not loyal at all to the businesses, who are not loyal to the citizens...etc. etc.[/quote]

    Corporations DO NOT PAY TAXES...EVER....at least in the sense that citizens do. Corporations exist to make a profit...if the government taxes them more, they raise the price of the product to the consumers. If corporations do not make a profit, and are not subsidized by any outside entity (like a government) they go out of business...over the past 10 years as a physician AND business owner I've realized that NO business is better than MONEY LOSING business.

    Now, if the government does not restrict trade, the home companies facing higher taxes are at a competitive disadvantage. If the citizens support Canadian companies over foreign companies by paying a premium for the Canadian products, they were paying the taxes all along...they just felt better about it in the name of nationalism...but the money still came out of YOUR pocket.

    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Was that off topic? It might have been.
    So Green, where do you live in the U.S.?[/QUOTE]

    Doesn't matter...I've enjoyed it.

    I live in Missouri now, but I was born and raised in the now Peoples Republic of New York. I spent 22 years moving all around the US while in the US Navy...it's a great country in most places.

    It's sad that at this point I would probably never consider moving back to NY.

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    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]I cannot believe people put up with stuff like this. I diagnosed my own hernia while in the military system, and scheduled it to be fixed the following week.[/QUOTE]

    I can go one better. When I was diagnosed with the hernia, I checked with the Shouldice clinic in Toronto (private hospital that does NOTHING but hernia surgeries. Known the world over, and do many athletes). They were booked solid for seven months. Best I could do was about 7 1/2 months wait time. Checked with the regular health care system: 9 months. So I waited a shorter time for better care, even while it was still covered under OHIP (Ontario Hospital Insurance Program).



    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]This is one of the most aggregious things implemented by government, apparently both here and there.

    In the US, after the introduction of 'payroll deduction' of taxes, we get many of the same feelings...people never 'see' the money, so they suppose it was never 'theirs'...it is a lie. I always believed that federal taxes ought to be due, and paid out of pocket the first Monday in the month of November here in the states...which of course is the day before election day. I pay almost $100K/yr in taxes...think I'd like to write a check for that amount to the government every November? would anybody?[/QUOTE]

    I've never made $100K a year, let alone be TAXED $100K a year....yikes.

    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]I'm an avid reader, I'll take a look[/QUOTE]

    It really is insightful, especially considering it was written over thirty years ago.

    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]If these companies are gouging the citizens, why haven't any competitors jumped in?[/QUOTE]

    There is competition, but compared to basically getting the services for at cost compared to what the companies are now profiting, there is a big difference.

    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]The problem is not that someone would not want to work the extra hours for the extra pay....the problem is that most people wouldn't want to work the extra hours if they have to pay 50% or more of the extra income in TAXES.

    I only recently began working a second job, and I will do it only as long as my children are in college...after that, I'm going to play more golf....I'm not working more hours just so the government can make an extra 40% of my income.[/QUOTE]


    Careful, they may figure out a way to tax your golfing...


    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]Like the toll roads that pay for the bridge, and then never end or get decreased...it is part of the power of government and taxation and it is evil. It needs to be fought at every turn.[/QUOTE]

    I agree, but under the circumstances, how else do we get the things we have? Native cultures didn't need to tax their tribe members, but then again, they didn't have to have infrastructure to make their economy work. Nobody likes taxes, but can we create a system in which they are unnecessary?


    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]Corporations DO NOT PAY TAXES...EVER....at least in the sense that citizens do. Corporations exist to make a profit...if the government taxes them more, they raise the price of the product to the consumers. If corporations do not make a profit, and are not subsidized by any outside entity (like a government) they go out of business...over the past 10 years as a physician AND business owner I've realized that NO business is better than MONEY LOSING business.[/QUOTE]


    My beef with capitalism, as it sounds, is really more to do with corporations. I think the whole concept is, well, not good...

    And the time frame I am talking about with Canada was prior to the extreme control Corporations had here. The majority of businesses were either mom and pop, or they were business men who owned small chains of stores.
    Now, if the government does not restrict trade, the home companies facing higher taxes are at a competitive disadvantage. If the citizens support Canadian companies over foreign companies by paying a premium for the Canadian products, they were paying the taxes all along...they just felt better about it in the name of nationalism...but the money still came out of YOUR pocket.[/QUOTE]




    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]I live in Missouri now, but I was born and raised in the now Peoples Republic of New York. I spent 22 years moving all around the US while in the US Navy...it's a great country in most places.

    It's sad that at this point I would probably never consider moving back to NY.
    I backpacked across the states almost ten years ago to see baseball games at every park. Passed through your neck of the woods twice (KC and St. Louis). Missed McGuire tying the home-run record by one game.

    Had a rain-out in KC, and actually had to FLY back to the city near the end of the ball season because I could not fit the game in (meaning doubling back to KC from the East coast).

    I love the States. Some beautiful country (Arizona, New Mexico, Keys, Colorado, Oregon). One of my favorite cities in the world is Chicago. Some of the nicest people I have met have come from the States. Two things though:

    1) Americans, the majority of them, seem to bring an arrogant/a-hole pill with them when they are tourists. Some of the degrading things I have heard said about other countries/cultures have basically all come from Americans...very frustrating.

    2) While some of the nicest people I have met have come from the States, service I found right across the country was not very....hospitable. Is that a common perspective, or just one coming from an outsider?[/QUOTE]

  7. #67
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Royally screwed by the Toll Brothers?? I don't understand what that means.[/QUOTE]

    The Toll Brothers are a big housing development corporation.
    [url]http://www.tollbrothers.com/homesearch/servlet/HomeSearch?app=community_description&comm_num=7087[/url]

    Being royally screwed by them means me workee workee they no payee payee. We give them bid, they say OK. Then they say not OK after already done, we will pay you this much. We say that not enough. They say get off job site. We say OK see you in court. They say good luck with that. We agree with them. We have but one lawyer, they have full battalion of lawyers...



    [QUOTE]What do you mean, hook a brother up? He's going to get you health insurance somehow? I don't understand.[/QUOTE]


    Yup. The guy I work for now just built(finished last October) a 90 unit condo complex in Fredonia NY. I just happened to come in at the right time and basically have been running the day to day for the whole place. Advertising, signing leases, showing apartment, scheduling maintenance, lawn care, inspections, etc. He is the CEO of another company and rarely has time to take care of the bulk of work here except cashing rent checks.

    He owns another chunk of property right on the lake shore where he plans on building townhouses to sell piece by piece, but still collection a general lawn and maintenance fee. There will be a boat launch and a large storage building for retirees to store their toys. Its an old drive in...I just gotta figure out a way to take down the old screen...should be quite fun.

    But obviously when you start to have over 150 units to take care of, you need a separate company, management company, with more employees that just myself to take care of everything. That's what I'm working out with him...then maybe I can get some bennies....details should be hammered before August....

  8. #68
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan]The Toll Brothers are a big housing development corporation.

    ..[/QUOTE]
    If it makes you feel any better, their stock has lost almost half its value in the last two years. ;)

    Good luck with the new opportunity, hope it works out.

  9. #69
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    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio]If it makes you feel any better, their stock has lost almost half its value in the last two years. ;)

    Good luck with the new opportunity, hope it works out.[/QUOTE]

    Thanks...I feel pretty good about my situation.

    I hope the medical system changes for the better in this country. Although I may seem a bit heated :rolleyes: in regards to working for doctors...I cant say that I literally don't owe my life to some great people who work in that profession. Being in the line of work that I am does some great damage to ones body...I am on my orthopedic surgeons Christmas mailing list :P

  10. #70
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan]The Toll Brothers are a big housing development corporation.
    [url]http://www.tollbrothers.com/homesearch/servlet/HomeSearch?app=community_description&comm_num=7087[/url]

    Being royally screwed by them means me workee workee they no payee payee. We give them bid, they say OK. Then they say not OK after already done, we will pay you this much. We say that not enough. They say get off job site. We say OK see you in court. They say good luck with that. We agree with them. We have but one lawyer, they have full battalion of lawyers...






    Yup. The guy I work for now just built(finished last October) a 90 unit condo complex in Fredonia NY. I just happened to come in at the right time and basically have been running the day to day for the whole place. Advertising, signing leases, showing apartment, scheduling maintenance, lawn care, inspections, etc. He is the CEO of another company and rarely has time to take care of the bulk of work here except cashing rent checks.

    He owns another chunk of property right on the lake shore where he plans on building townhouses to sell piece by piece, but still collection a general lawn and maintenance fee. There will be a boat launch and a large storage building for retirees to store their toys. Its an old drive in...I just gotta figure out a way to take down the old screen...should be quite fun.

    But obviously when you start to have over 150 units to take care of, you need a separate company, management company, with more employees that just myself to take care of everything. That's what I'm working out with him...then maybe I can get some bennies....details should be hammered before August....[/QUOTE]


    What do you mean, they "accepted?" Do you have a signed, unambiguous contract? If so, one lawyer is enough.

  11. #71
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan]Being in the line of work that I am does some great damage to ones body...I am on my orthopedic surgeons Christmas mailing list :P[/QUOTE]
    If you pay cash, I would hope so! ;)

  12. #72
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    [QUOTE][B]I'd be perfectly willing to even pay some taxes to fund "last-resort" healthcare for the truly needy, but I'd want to see some real spending cuts elsewhere to finance it.[/B][/QUOTE]

    I agree. We can start with cutting the spending on trying to provide the Iraqis with a democracy that they themselves do not want. While were at it lets also stop spending as much as we are on weapon systems that are unnecessary and cut back on our foreign aid to Israel. Lets take care o f Americans first.

  13. #73
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]I agree. We can start with cutting the spending on trying to provide the Iraqis with a democracy that they themselves do not want. While were at it lets also stop spending as much as we are on weapon systems that are unnecessary and cut back on our foreign aid to Israel. Lets take care o f Americans first.[/QUOTE]

    Interesting you brought up Israel and not Egypt or Africa? Which of those weapons systems have you determined aren't necessary? I didn't know you had that kind of expertise? Are you also suggesting we pull out of Afghanistan to pay for this? How about pulling out of the UN to pay for it or stop funding welfare for none citizens to help pay for it?

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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]Interesting you brought up Israel and not Egypt or Africa? Which of those weapons systems have you determined aren't necessary? I didn't know you had that kind of expertise? Are you also suggesting we pull out of Afghanistan to pay for this? How about pulling out of the UN to pay for it or stop funding welfare for none citizens to help pay for it?[/QUOTE]

    Israel gets 20% (the most of any nations) of our total Foreign Aid despite being far better off than Africa and Egypt , i figured they were first in line for a cut.

    dont know which weopans are expendible and which are not. I am certain there are some that are not absolutely essential. Ill let the experts decide that.

    If Afghanistan proves to be the failure that Iraq is, yes, lets pull out there too. But there is a difference. Afghanistan has/had a chance for us to achieve our goals there. The goals in Iraq were never achievable.

    Pull out of the UN? Fine!

    Stop funding welfare for non-citizens. Sure!

    And while were at it why not help our revenues by laying some major fines on Americans who hire illegal aliens.

  15. #75
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7]I agree. We can start with cutting the spending on trying to provide the Iraqis with a democracy that they themselves do not want. While were at it lets also stop spending as much as we are on weapon systems that are unnecessary and cut back on our foreign aid to Israel. Lets take care o f Americans first.[/QUOTE]


    with respect to redirecting funds, you'd pe surprised as how much could be saved if the current Medicaid system was cleaned up. many people exploit the loopholes and drive up the cost.

  16. #76
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]What do you mean, they "accepted?" Do you have a signed, unambiguous contract? If so, one lawyer is enough.[/QUOTE]

    Sometimes it ain't that easy when it comes to construction...

    When we bid a job...we do the bidding by using a set of blueprints. Almost ALWAYS blueprints don't really covey what happens in the real world at the job site...architects just aren't that smart. They can draw stuff on a piece of paper and make it work in their heads, but when it comes down to pipes, nails and 2x4's...it just doesn't jive.

    Large corporate builders are notorious for altering designs midstream on a project. They have a team of college educated "designers" that come into different jobs and make our lives a living hell by standing there in their shiny clean hard hats and moving walls around to give the home more ambiance and curb appeal.

    Now plumbing many times just isn't that flexible. Wires bend, pipes don't. And plumbing is subject to many many building codes on how drains should be piped. Vents have to be in the right area at the right heights. Fittings have to be installed in a certain way to conform to code. Drains have to be pitched a certain way and amount. If two bathrooms share a common wall it can really interfere in the way you run your drains. Support beams which you cant drill through can prevent you from running a drain pipe in the most efficient way. Plumbing is subject to fire codes as to where you can drill holes through floor joists. Every year they add more and more restrictions and code variations.

    Toll Brothers moved the location of two toilets in a certain house model. Not by much...only about two feet each. Doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Except that it falls on a very inconvenient side of a laminate beam...which cant be drilled. So my vent pipe...instead of being a short run of about 6 feet has to now run about 90 feet around the whole backside of the house just because I cant drill one 2 inch hole through a floor beam. Same deal with the waterlines...because water lines cannot be run in an outside wall, and copper is muy expensive.

    Anyway...builders like to play games when it comes to paying you. They like to be in the habit of being a house or two behind in their payments to you. Its kinda like a bad crack addiction. You keep working on new houses just so that you can get paid for the ones you already completed. Usually most of my invoices were over the 90 day column. And by the time you finally get a check, all your other bills are due...rich one day, poor the next. You work like a dog just to keep up to keep the cash flow coming...meanwhile juggling phone calls from angry supply houses because all your bills are in over 90 days also.

    Point of story is we never had a chance to make it to the main office to check the r5evised prints. Bad mistake on our part. But we took for granted that because we were keeping up and doing a good job they would be flexible. They were not. We will probably end up getting paid...but after court and lawyer costs, who knows if it is even worth it...

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