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Thread: OT: Bush Spares Libby From Prison...Grant of Executive Clemency...

  1. #41
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Rich wrote the Clintons a check! Of COURSE you think thnis is worse, you are biased. I am biased too, but I admit it. I doubt you or Nuu will admit your biases....[/QUOTE]


    I am certainly biased, but I'm not pro-Clinton at all... didn't vote for him and never would, way too conservative just like his wife. I am not a fan of either

  2. #42
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]Libby wasn't pardoned was he, he still will have the record and still faced a stiff fine. And what was he convicted of? Perjury.

    Marc Rich was on the FBI's 10 most wanted list for years. His case was the biggest tax evasion case in the history of the country. He also illegally traded Iranian oil during the hostage crisis.

    This is what Rich was indicted for:
    Tax evasion
    Wire fraud
    Mail fraud
    Trading with enemies of the United States and
    Racketeering

    He than fled prosecution so he was essential a fugitive from the US justice system. What changed things for Rich was hiring a friend of Clinton's to represent him and giving millions to Clinton's campaign fund. If you don't think pardoning essentially a trader and hard core criminal in exchange for money isn't worse than reducing the sentence of perjury conviction, than we clearly have a different perspective on what real impropriety is.[/QUOTE]


    then you must feel that pardoning Nixon and the Iran-Contra figures is even worse that pardoning Marc Rich because they were bigger traitors, no?


    And covering up for crimes committed by Dick and Bush (or any Pres/VP for that matter) makes someone a traitor to the American people and country IMHO

  3. #43
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]Libby wasn't pardoned was he, he still will have the record and still faced a stiff fine. And what was he convicted of? Perjury.

    Marc Rich was on the FBI's 10 most wanted list for years. His case was the biggest tax evasion case in the history of the country. He also illegally traded Iranian oil during the hostage crisis.

    This is what Rich was indicted for:
    Tax evasion
    Wire fraud
    Mail fraud
    Trading with enemies of the United States and
    Racketeering

    He than fled prosecution so he was essential a fugitive from the US justice system. What changed things for Rich was hiring a friend of Clinton's to represent him and giving millions to Clinton's campaign fund. If you don't think pardoning essentially a trader and hard core criminal in exchange for money isn't worse than reducing the sentence of perjury conviction, than we clearly have a different perspective on what real impropriety is.[/QUOTE]

    It's not that, it's just that his arguments and opinions about this particular issue are not based on principle because his animus towards Bush clouds his jugdment.

  4. #44
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]Rich was a fugitive from justice. He never went to trial because he fled the country and fought extradition until he bought his pardon.[/QUOTE]

    Thx. That pardon did stink to high heaven, to be sure.

  5. #45
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    [QUOTE=Tanginius]FYI Libby IS a felon[/QUOTE]


    was Libby pardoned??? or don't you understand what exactly happened??

  6. #46
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    [QUOTE=Tanginius]c
    o
    v
    e
    r

    u
    p[/QUOTE]

    I'm sure you have as much proof about this as you do the 2000 election being stolen..... :rolleyes:

  7. #47
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola]What Clinton did was outrageous. I fumed at him at the time.

    That doesn't make this anything less than what it is: an abuse of power. Bush has spent his entire career saying executives shouldn't offer pardons/clemency that overrides the will of a jury.

    In Texas, he executed Karla Fay Tucker --who unlike Libby was repentent-- after the pope lobbied for the death sentence to be commuted. Then he mocked her before she died.

    But suddenly, when someone who has the goods on his administration is facing jail time, Bush decides its time to reverse himself. Never mind that there is no dispute over Libby's guilt, and that the sentence was in line with federal sentencing guidelines. Never mind that there is an exhaustive process for applying for a pardon/clemency that was totally disregarded here.[/QUOTE]


    goods on the administration???

    either Patrick Fitzgerald is the most good awful prosecutor in the world or as usual, you're talking out of your ass.....

    odds heavily favor the latter....

  8. #48
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    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY]goods on the administration???

    either Patrick Fitzgerald is the most good awful prosecutor in the world or as usual, you're talking out of your ass.....

    odds heavily favor the latter....[/QUOTE]

    Please offer another plausible explanation of why Libby's sentence would be commuted while the appeal was pending. Why was it so important that a guy who was convicted of obstructing justice on a national security matter not spend a single day in jail.

    By the way, the way prosecutors traditionally work is they nail the underlings in order to compel testimony against the hihgher-ups. That's the model Fitzgerald has used in other cases he's been involved with (the Conrad Black matter most recently). Do you really think Libby was the endgame for him?

  9. #49
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola]Please offer another plausible explanation of why Libby's sentence would be commuted while the appeal was pending. Why was it so important that a guy who was convicted of obstructing justice on a national security matter not spend a single day in jail.[/QUOTE]

    more than likely because they would not allow him to stay out of jail why the appeal was pending and during the appeals process....had that happened and his sentence been commuted then the lunatic leftists would have something to b!tch about...and no matter how you may spin it his conviction had nothing to do with national security....as has been proven the only people to lie about the substance of the matter is liar joe and his wife...

    [QUOTE]By the way, the way prosecutors traditionally work is they nail the underlings in order to compel testimony against the hihgher-ups. That's the model Fitzgerald has used in other cases he's been involved with (the Conrad Black matter most recently). Do you really think Libby was the endgame for him?[/QUOTE]

    which further proves my point....either Fitzgerald is the worst prosecutor on the face of the earth as, after a nearly three year investigation (one in which he knew the source of the leak two days into the whole affair) he came up with nothing more than purjury or your talking out your ass...

  10. #50
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    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY]more than likely because they would not allow him to stay out of jail why the appeal was pending and during the appeals process....had that happened and his sentence been commuted then the lunatic leftists would have something to b!tch about...and no matter how you may spin it his conviction had nothing to do with national security....as has been proven the only people to lie about the substance of the matter is liar joe and his wife...



    which further proves my point....either Fitzgerald is the worst prosecutor on the face of the earth as, after a nearly three year investigation (one in which he knew the source of the leak two days into the whole affair) he came up with nothing more than purjury or your talking out your ass...[/QUOTE]

    A jury thought it was "proven" that Scooter Libby lied. That's why they sent him to jail. I ask again: Why is it so bad if Scooter Libby goes to jail for the duration of his appeal. He was convicted of a crime that carries jail time. Anyone else convicted of the same crime would go to jail, pending the result of their appeal.

    Why the need to keep him out of prison, where a jury sent him in accordance with federal sentencing guidelines for his crime?

    A pardon/commuting is typically a last resort, after all judicial avenues have been exhausted. It is very unusual for a sentence to be commuted before the judicial process is exhausted.

  11. #51
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    Paris Hilton wasn't allowed to get special treatment, why should the CONVICTED FELON Lewis "Scooter" Libby be allowed to get special treatment?

  12. #52
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola]A jury thought it was "proven" that Scooter Libby lied. That's why they sent him to jail. I ask again: Why is it so bad if Scooter Libby goes to jail for the duration of his appeal. He was convicted of a crime that carries jail time. Anyone else convicted of the same crime would go to jail, pending the result of their appeal.

    Why the need to keep him out of prison, where a jury sent him in accordance with federal sentencing guidelines for his crime?

    A pardon/commuting is typically a last resort, after all judicial avenues have been exhausted. It is very unusual for a sentence to be commuted before the judicial process is exhausted.[/QUOTE]

    Juries thought it was proven that those Texas inmates killed people, but to you, that is in doubt enough to deserve a full pardon and in one case, clemency even though the proof was not in doubt (Tucker). But now, all of a sudden and seemingly confined only to this Libby case, you have developed an unwavering respect for the integrity of juries, sentences and letting the process run its course interrupted uninterrupted. Amazing!

    Besides, you liberals get off on being outraged and this gives you something to be outraged about, like your cute little devotion to proecdure that you researched and developed yesterday afternoon.

  13. #53
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    [QUOTE=Tanginius]then you must feel that pardoning Nixon and the Iran-Contra figures is even worse that pardoning Marc Rich because they were bigger traitors, no?


    And covering up for crimes committed by Dick and Bush (or any Pres/VP for that matter) makes someone a traitor to the American people and country IMHO[/QUOTE]


    At the time of the Nixon pardon I thought it was a mistake. In retrospect Ford did the right thing.

  14. #54
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    [QUOTE=Tanginius]then you must feel that pardoning Nixon and the Iran-Contra figures is even worse that pardoning Marc Rich because they were bigger traitors, no?


    And covering up for crimes committed by Dick and Bush (or any Pres/VP for that matter) makes someone a traitor to the American people and country IMHO[/QUOTE]

    Uh, the only problem with this analysis is that Bish and Cheney committed no crimes and Libby didn't cover them up because they don't exist. Oh, the sky is also blue.

  15. #55
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Uh, the only problem with this analysis is that Bish and Cheney committed no crimes and Libby didn't cover them up because they don't exist. Oh, the sky is also blue.[/QUOTE]


    we'll never know what crimes they got away with you mean

  16. #56
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs]At the time of the Nixon pardon I thought it was a mistake. In retrospect Ford did the right thing.[/QUOTE]


    whoa... interesting


    how about Reagan & the Iran-Contra guys selling weapons to our enemy?

    Marc Rich traded oil with them... Reagan, Weinberger, North, etc sold weapons to them

    who's the bigger traitor and who's pardon was less damaging?

  17. #57
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    [QUOTE=Tanginius]we'll never know what crimes they got away with you mean[/QUOTE]

    Doesn't it make it better for you this way, though? You'll always be able to speculate now because of the inability to prove a negative - it's like a gift that will always keep on giving for you. C'mon man, admit it...after all of the bluster and temporary disputes of the day are gone and its just one guy talking to another, tell me you don't get off on being outraged and believing in nefarious, behind the scences malfeasance. Tell me you don't love the excitement that goes along with believing stuff like this. The real world - Bush sincerely thinking Iraq was a good strategic move - is far too boring. It's far more exciting to think about a world of dastardly lies and crimes, all in the name of oil blah blah blah.

  18. #58
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    [QUOTE=Tanginius]we'll never know what crimes they got away with you mean[/QUOTE]


    just like you'll never know if the 2000 election was stolen.... :zzz:

  19. #59
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Juries thought it was proven that those Texas inmates killed people, but to you, that is in doubt enough to deserve a full pardon and in one case, clemency even though the proof was not in doubt (Tucker). But now, all of a sudden and seemingly confined only to this Libby case, you have developed an unwavering respect for the integrity of juries, sentences and letting the process run its course interrupted uninterrupted. Amazing!

    Besides, you liberals get off on being outraged and this gives you something to be outraged about, like your cute little devotion to proecdure that you researched and developed yesterday afternoon.[/QUOTE]


    Tucker was guilty. The issue, for me, was the refusal to commute the death sentence (in any cases, even where the evidence was cloudy). I certainly don't think she should have been freed.

    In any event, the fairness of how the death penalty is administered is a debate I'm not interested in starting today.

    As for my devotion to procedure being researched yesterday, I think you know that's complete bull. My most consistent critique of Bush et al is that they operate as if rules or laws --or even foundations of our govenrment, like checks and balances-- can be ignored or disregarded if they find it convenient to do so.

    This is the latest in a long list of examples of that.

  20. #60
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    libby was a victim of a witch hunt ... process crime ... they weren't investigating a crime (because one didn't occur).!

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