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Thread: OT: Bush Spares Libby From Prison...Grant of Executive Clemency...

  1. #81
    flushingjet
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    [QUOTE=chicadeel]I don't understand the reasoning behind the power given to the President to pardon or commute a sentence. Why would the framers give the president power to override the judicial process?[/QUOTE]

    just because there are checks and balances doesnt mean
    a branch of govt never has absolute power

    in certain circumstances they all have powers that
    either cannot be overturned or overturned easily

    1st its only for federal offenses....not for a speeding ticket

    2nd the original intent was more narrow:

    [b]Alexander Hamilton, in the Federalist Papers that "in seasons of insurrection or rebellion, there are often critical moments, when a well-timed offer of pardon to the insurgents or rebels may restore the tranquillity of the common wealth; and which, if suffered to pass unimproved, it may never be possible afterwards to recall." [/b]

    sometimes those unjustly/overzealously prosecuted need a reprieve
    libby, weinberger may be in that group

    others whose pardon is really in the best interest of the nation
    despite partisan sentiment to the contrary
    ie nixon, draft dodgers, rebellion participants, confederates

    still others get favors as a president is walking out the door
    and you scratch your head saying, wtf?
    faln bombers and marc rich are squarely in that category

  2. #82
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola]And you don't find that incongruous with Bush's repeated statements about it not being appropriate for him to substitute his judgment for a jury's?[/QUOTE]
    Sure, it is. It's also not the first time he's commuted or pardoned someone, yet it's the first time you've brought up this incongruity, which I find bizarre -- and suspicious--.

    And again, find me a politician who has never made a statement that contradicts something they have later done or said, and I'll give you a million dollars.

  3. #83
    [QUOTE=jets5ever]Sure, it is...

    And again, find me a politician who has never made a statement that contradicts something they have later done or said, and I'll give you a million dollars.[/QUOTE]

    On this point, we are not in disagreement.

    But just because hypocrisy is a common trait in politicians doesn't mean they should get a pass for it. I fumed at Clinton when he left office --which I thought was a disgrace at the time-- and I'm entitled to fume at Bush in this case, where his much-repeated principles are cast aside as soon as a chrony gets in a tight spot (for lying to protect Cheney).

  4. #84
    [QUOTE=Tanginius]whoa... interesting


    how about Reagan & the Iran-Contra guys selling weapons to our enemy?

    Marc Rich traded oil with them... Reagan, Weinberger, North, etc sold weapons to them

    who's the bigger traitor and who's pardon was less damaging?[/QUOTE]

    The Rich pardon was the worst I have ever seen. Iran Contra was fully investigated and prosecuted. Rich simply fled prosecution lived like a millionaire in Switzerland and bought a pardon for cash.

    Outdated weapons were far less valuable than hard currency to Iran. Iran has been in a cash squeez for years and can't maintain their weapons without cash.

    The point is this commutation of sentence was not a big deal and even if I agree with you on Iran Contra, which I don't, this is still not in the same league as either that or the Marc Rich pardons. It seems like a just sentence based on the actual crime.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 07-03-2007 at 05:49 PM.

  5. #85
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola]On this point, we are not in disagreement.

    But just because hypocrisy is a common trait in politicians doesn't mean they should get a pass for it. I fumed at Clinton when he left office --which I thought was a disgrace at the time-- and I'm entitled to fume at Bush in this case, where his much-repeated principles are cast aside as soon as a chrony gets in a tight spot (for lying to protect Cheney).[/QUOTE]


    and the facts are on your side.... :zzz:

  6. #86
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet]just because there are checks and balances doesnt mean
    a branch of govt never has absolute power[/QUOTE]

    You can say that again...

    [QUOTE]in certain circumstances they all have powers that
    either cannot be overturned or overturned easily[/QUOTE]

    Comforting...

    [QUOTE]1st its only for federal offenses....not for a speeding ticket[/QUOTE]

    Of course. Federal offenders must be let go...while incredulous speeders must suffer the wrath of a angry judicial system.

    [QUOTE]2nd the original intent was more narrow:

    [b]Alexander Hamilton, in the Federalist Papers that "in seasons of insurrection or rebellion, there are often critical moments, when a well-timed offer of pardon to the insurgents or rebels may restore the tranquillity of the common wealth; and which, if suffered to pass unimproved, it may never be possible afterwards to recall." [/b][/QUOTE]

    Hamilton = Douche bag

    [QUOTE]sometimes those unjustly/overzealously prosecuted need a reprieve
    libby, weinberger may be in that group[/QUOTE]
    [IMG]http://www.retrojunk.com/img/commercial-thumbs/cryingindian197_143_sm_856_160.jpg[/IMG]

    I cry for poor poor Scooter. He would of been somebody's b*tch in the clink.


    [QUOTE]others whose pardon is really in the best interest of the nation
    despite partisan sentiment to the contrary
    ie nixon, draft dodgers, rebellion participants, confederates[/QUOTE]

    LOL...pardon for "rebellion participants". Where the hell have you been?

    Draft Dodger = Terrorists
    Rebellion Participants = Terrorists
    Confederates = Terrorists

    [QUOTE]still others get favors as a president is walking out the door[/QUOTE]

    You mean like the American people?

    [QUOTE]and you scratch your head saying, wtf?[/QUOTE]

    After 6 years of this dude, I don't think much of anything would make me say WTF?

    [QUOTE]faln bombers and marc rich are squarely in that category [/QUOTE]

    Lets re-elect Clinton so we can impeach the bastard!!

  7. #87
    The intent of the framers absolutely makes sense. It is extremely unfortunate,that this power at times, has become so diluted.

  8. #88
    [QUOTE=Tanginius]whoa... interesting


    how about Reagan & the Iran-Contra guys selling weapons to our enemy?

    Marc Rich traded oil with them... Reagan, Weinberger, North, etc sold weapons to them

    who's the bigger traitor and who's pardon was less damaging?[/QUOTE]
    Marc Rich was the biggest tax scofflaw in United States history. He was a top-10 most wanted and fled the country, wisely never to return because he would have gone straight to jail. Clinton, in his last days of office, relieved Rich of his worries. Thanks, Bill.

    All Bush did was keep Libby from going to jail. And, frankly, he doesn't deserve jail.

    What I absolutely love is that liberals here and everywhere, who are soooo concerned about the outing of Plame, don't even mention Dick Armitage - the actual leak who has almost nothing to do with the White House. They'd rather trip up Libby in nonsense and ascribe high presidential crime. Not the new Watergate guys, sorry. And it never was.

  9. #89
    [QUOTE=nuu faaola]Quote for the day, courtesy of Andrew Sullivan's always-interesting blog:

    [B]"I don't believe my role is to replace the verdict of a jury with my own," - George W. Bush on why he signed death warrants for 152 inmates as governor of Texas.

    The quote is from his own book, "A Charge To Keep." I think that's a debate-ender, isn't it?[/B][/QUOTE]
    Juries don't sentence. Bush didn't pardon. Get it straight.

  10. #90
    [QUOTE=jets5ever]All right, important stuff - How have you been Queensie? Haven't seen you around as much. How's the fam?

    Things are good here. My wife and I are expecting again! She's about 16 weeks along, due in December. Little George is 11 months old and not quite walking yet, but he's crawling around and pulling himself up on things and generally getting into trouble. He learned how to clap two days ago and was quite proud of himself for it, but doesn't quite get what it means yet because he slipped and hurt himself and started crying and then, inexplicably, started clapping while he was crying....[/QUOTE]
    So true my friend. Mazel Tov on the new child. Hope you and your loved ones enjoy the new arrival in good health and happiness. Enjoy your freedom till Little George is up and running about. Afterwards you will not be able to sit calmly without wondering what he's up to. :)

    My family is doing fine thanks. My son graduated and is now studying for the bar (and complaining like crazy about it). He has a great job waiting for him with a start up sports company. I am even going to be helping out in the firm. I'm so excited about it. Gonna get me out of my office 2 days a week. My daughter just finished her first year of law school and did very well.

    Yeah I don't post much any more here. Think you can understand why. Will be different after training camp opens.

    Keep on supplying some good news my friend and maybe try reading the NY Times and learing a thing or 2. :D

    Have a happy 4th.

  11. #91
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    [QUOTE=sackdance]Marc Rich was the biggest tax scofflaw in United States history. He was a top-10 most wanted and fled the country, wisely never to return because he would have gone straight to jail. Clinton, in his last days of office, relieved Rich of his worries. Thanks, Bill.

    All Bush did was keep Libby from going to jail. And, frankly, he doesn't deserve jail.

    What I absolutely love is that liberals here and everywhere, who are soooo concerned about the outing of Plame, don't even mention Dick Armitage - the actual leak who has almost nothing to do with the White House. They'd rather trip up Libby in nonsense and ascribe high presidential crime. Not the new Watergate guys, sorry. And it never was.[/QUOTE]


    heh, lol

    Facing intense questioning from Rep. Paul Kanjorski, D-Pennsylvania, Libby hedged on whether he thought Clinton's pardon was justified, infuriating the congressman.

    "Did you represent a crook who stole money from the United States government, was a fugitive and should never have been given or granted a pardon by the facts that you know?" snapped Kanjorski.

    "No, sir," Libby responded. "There are no facts that I know of that support the criminality of the client based on the tax returns."

    Libby then said prosecutors from the Southern District of New York "misconstrued the facts and the law" when they prosecuted Rich.

    "(Rich) had not violated the tax laws," said Libby.

  12. #92
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    [QUOTE=Lady Jet]heh, lol

    Facing intense questioning from Rep. Paul Kanjorski, D-Pennsylvania, Libby hedged on whether he thought Clinton's pardon was justified, infuriating the congressman.

    "Did you represent a crook who stole money from the United States government, was a fugitive and should never have been given or granted a pardon by the facts that you know?" snapped Kanjorski.

    "No, sir," Libby responded. "There are no facts that I know of that support the criminality of the client based on the tax returns."

    Libby then said prosecutors from the Southern District of New York "misconstrued the facts and the law" when they prosecuted Rich.

    "(Rich) had not violated the tax laws," said Libby.[/QUOTE]


    NO SH*T...Libby was Rich's lawyer?

    I never even realized that...

    Hay Sackdance...Libby says Rich is innocent. You gotta trust Scooter on that one, right...since he is such an upstanding law abiding servant of the constitution. I mean if Libby thinks he is innocent then he HAS to be....
    :grouplaug

  13. #93
    Libby ... Rich ... lawyering ...

    Whatever happened to the critical breakdown of national security, with the blown cover of secret agents? You guys were so darn worried over that, for months! That the Bush White House was compromising our sensitive intelligence community - hundreds of posts about this on JI alone.

    It never mattered, but it seemed to when Plame's "cover" was blown by someone in the White House. Once we learned that it was Armitage with the loose lips, well, who cares after that? Not you guys. Not anyone. Why? Because it means nothing if it can't hurt Bush. What a wagon of baloney the left wheels around.

    Which brings us to Libby, hounded and convicted over testimony regarding a non-existant crime, and what's more, Prosecutor Fitzgerald knew there was no crime committed. I'm with Jets5, commuting the sentence (which too many libtards [I]still[/I] can't differentiate from pardoning) is not enough. A full pardon is warranted.

    As for Rich's legal defense, he had a good lawyer. Maybe Libby can be indicted for taking cases, too.

  14. #94
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    [QUOTE=sackdance]Libby ... Rich ... lawyering ...

    Whatever happened to the critical breakdown of national security, with the blown cover of secret agents? You guys were so darn worried over that, for months! That the Bush White House was compromising our sensitive intelligence community - hundreds of posts about this on JI alone.

    It never mattered, but it seemed to when Plame's "cover" was blown by someone in the White House. Once we learned that it was Armitage with the loose lips, well, who cares after that? Not you guys. Not anyone. Why? Because it means nothing if it can't hurt Bush. What a wagon of baloney the left wheels around.

    Which brings us to Libby, hounded and convicted over testimony regarding a non-existant crime, and what's more, Prosecutor Fitzgerald knew there was no crime committed. I'm with Jets5, commuting the sentence (which too many libtards [I]still[/I] can't differentiate from pardoning) is not enough. A full pardon is warranted.

    As for Rich's legal defense, he had a good lawyer. Maybe Libby can be indicted for taking cases, too.[/QUOTE]

    and all along the lies of liar joe wilson and the purjury committed by his wife are ignored and dismissed....

  15. #95
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    [QUOTE=sackdance]Marc Rich.

    'nuff said.[/QUOTE]don't stop there. it goes on and on. we need to take all career politicians, lock 'em up, and throw away the key.

  16. #96
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet]no doubt about it - pardoning rogue financiers, government scammers
    and faln bombers looks good & proper next to
    excusing libbys "crime"[/QUOTE]nope. it's all improper. "these guys" = career politicians. sorry, i should have been clearer. i'm not with dems, reps, cons or libs. anyone that spends his life currying favors in order to climb the political ladder is bad news.

  17. #97
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    [QUOTE=isired]don't stop there. it goes on and on. we need to take all career politicians, lock 'em up, and throw away the key.[/QUOTE]


    why would you lock up career politicians???

    if people are stupid enough to keep ted kennedy or jean kerri in office decade after decade they deserve what they get.....

  18. #98
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    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY]why would you lock up career politicians???[/QUOTE]it was never supposed to be that way, and everything that's wrong with the system right now can be attributed to that. people who are just doing a bit of 'public service' before getting back to their career don't need to pander...

  19. #99
    Only the Dems have career politicians right.

    [IMG]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39639000/jpg/_39639121_1stromap203cred.jpg[/IMG]

    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY]why would you lock up career politicians???

    if people are stupid enough to keep ted kennedy or jean kerri in office decade after decade they deserve what they get.....[/QUOTE]

  20. #100
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan]NO SH*T...Libby was Rich's lawyer?

    I never even realized that...

    Hay Sackdance...Libby says Rich is innocent. You gotta trust Scooter on that one, right...since he is such an upstanding law abiding servant of the constitution. I mean if Libby thinks he is innocent then he HAS to be....
    :grouplaug[/QUOTE]


    That was of tax evassion which is lawyer speak, why don't you see what Libby, Rich's lawyer said about his dealings with Iran when they were holding our hostages? The guy was charged with alot more than tax evassion.

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