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Thread: Fair Tax

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    Fair Tax

    I've started to hear some people talking up the Fair Tax. I know it is a 23% sales tax and you get to take home the gross. Does anybody have feelings one way or another about this or that can give me a good education on its pros nad cons? Thx.

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    [QUOTE=JCnflies]I've started to hear some people talking up the Fair Tax. I know it is a 23% sales tax and you get to take home the gross. Does anybody have feelings one way or another about this or that can give me a good education on its pros nad cons? Thx.[/QUOTE]

    Anything that doesn't tax [b]income[/b] is good...it would go a long way to getting the government out of private finances.

    People that make a large amount of 'income' are not necessarily wealthy...taxing wealth is always preferable to taxing [b[income[/b]...and the wealthy always spend.

    Americans need to realize that anything that is taxed is necessarily 'limited' by the people paying the tax....i.e., in the face of confiscatory income taxes, people limit their income which is NOT what you want.

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    [QUOTE=JCnflies]I've started to hear some people talking up the Fair Tax. I know it is a 23% sales tax and you get to take home the gross. Does anybody have feelings one way or another about this or that can give me a good education on its pros nad cons? Thx.[/QUOTE]


    When they use the word "fair" and "tax" in the same sentance...pay attention, because something fishy is going on.


    Income tax is systematic raping of its citizens by a greedy federal government. Wasn't one of the reasons we wanted out from under the British thumb was excessive taxation? Besides, our government lackeys haven't proven themselves responsible enough to be trusted to spend my money wisely.

    Meanwhile, large corporations who can hire teams of lawyers and accountants can stall IRS investigations for years. Motorola and Intel owe millions and millions in back taxes. But they are still allowed to sell their products in this country. Hmmmm. But is Joe Schmoe shorts the govt. by a couple grand or claims his goldfish as a dependent so he can keep some of his own money, then he gets audited....because auditing an individual is a lot easier than auditing a large corporation.

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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan]When they use the word "fair" and "tax" in the same sentance...pay attention, because something fishy is going on.


    [B]Income tax is systematic raping of its citizens by a greedy federal government. Wasn't one of the reasons we wanted out from under the British thumb was excessive taxation? Besides, our government lackeys haven't proven themselves responsible enough to be trusted to spend my money wisely.[/B]

    Meanwhile, large corporations who can hire teams of lawyers and accountants can stall IRS investigations for years. Motorola and Intel owe millions and millions in back taxes. But they are still allowed to sell their products in this country. Hmmmm. But is Joe Schmoe shorts the govt. by a couple grand or claims his goldfish as a dependent so he can keep some of his own money, then he gets audited....because auditing an individual is a lot easier than auditing a large corporation.[/QUOTE]

    Yes, the American Revolution began due to excessive taxation and no representation. The colonists were in an uproar over being taxed 4% on their income. What makes it funny is today many of us pay more than a third of our income in taxes. Considering the fact that our elected officials no longer represent our interests, where is the uproar?

    As far as the Fair Tax goes, I'd support it. Taxing us on what we spend is much more reasonable because we can to a point control what we pay. When income is taxed that is not the case. Income tax is no different than extortion, especially these days where as mentioned above we're no longer represented by our elected officals.

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    [QUOTE=JCnflies]I've started to hear some people talking up the Fair Tax. I know it is a 23% sales tax and you get to take home the gross. Does anybody have feelings one way or another about this or that can give me a good education on its pros nad cons? Thx.[/QUOTE]

    Personnally I like it, however I cant see it happening as an across the board 23% relinquishes politicians power to "steer" the economy. It would get sticky in defining whats taxable and whats not taxable. Exports would need to be exempt from this tax as well.

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    A 23% sales tax would be positively BRUTAL on the poor, who pay very little income tax on account of having very little income. The poorest Americans would be left much poorer due to that policy, and the richest much richer.

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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola]A 23% sales tax would be positively BRUTAL on the poor, who pay very little income tax on account of having very little income. The poorest Americans would be left much poorer due to that policy, and the richest much richer.[/QUOTE]

    You are incorrect. If you are poor (at or below poverty line for the number of people in household), you pay no tax whatsoever with the Fair Tax plan.

    Under the Fair Tax plan, every American gets a rebate, paid in advance, every month, of the tax collected on the money you spend for bare necessities.

    Bottom line: Nobody pays tax on the first $X of expenditures every month, where X = poverty level rent/food/bare essentials.

    All other taxes (payroll, SSN, income, special use, fuel, etc) are rescinded. The IRS is abolished. The taxes are remitted to the federal government via the state government revenue collection organization, using the same method as sales tax collections. Minimal changes for retailers collecting taxes.

    Read and embrace. The way we are currently set up, the tax system is a carrot at the end of a stick, wielded by politicans. If we get the Fair Tax plan enacted, we will be free of that carrot and stick, free from invasive audits, and gain enormous privacy back from the government. And crooks, who pay no income tax, will begin to pay tax when they buy a Rolex, a Cadillac, whiskey. Illegal immigrants will be paying taxes, too, in the Fair Tax system.

    [url]www.fairtax.org[/url]

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    [QUOTE=rbstern]You are incorrect. If you are poor (at or below poverty line for the number of people in household), you pay no tax whatsoever with the Fair Tax plan.

    Under the Fair Tax plan, every American gets a rebate, paid in advance, every month, of the tax collected on the money you spend for bare necessities.

    Bottom line: Nobody pays tax on the first $X of expenditures every month, where X = poverty level rent/food/bare essentials.

    All other taxes (payroll, SSN, income, special use, fuel, etc) are rescinded. The IRS is abolished. The taxes are remitted to the federal government via the state government revenue collection organization, using the same method as sales tax collections. Minimal changes for retailers collecting taxes.

    Read and embrace. The way we are currently set up, the tax system is a carrot at the end of a stick, wielded by politicans. If we get the Fair Tax plan enacted, we will be free of that carrot and stick, free from invasive audits, and gain enormous privacy back from the government. And crooks, who pay no income tax, will begin to pay tax when they buy a Rolex, a Cadillac, whiskey. Illegal immigrants will be paying taxes, too, in the Fair Tax system.

    [url]www.fairtax.org[/url][/QUOTE]

    I stand corrected, as I was thinking of the old "flat tax," which this differs from. On paper, it seems to address some of the flaws with that idea.

    But it is a very radical shift from current policy, so the devil would be in the details.

    My own top tax priority at the moment is for the IRS to do a better job enforcing the current tax code, as the amount of questionable deductions and uncollected taxes is absurd.

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    Another question:

    There has to be a better way than income tax.

    My question is this:

    How does the government raise enough money to run countries, cities, etc. by paying for all the things necessary (roads, street lights, libraries, parks etc) without taxing its citizens?

    Can we change course and tax corporations, businesses, etc... and make them foot the bill?

    Just want to hear a few opinions on this, especially the likes of Greenwave, Jet5, Plumb, CBTNY, Source....

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    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Another question:

    There has to be a better way than income tax.

    My question is this:

    How does the government raise enough money to run countries, cities, etc. by paying for all the things necessary (roads, street lights, libraries, parks etc) without taxing its citizens?

    Can we change course and tax corporations, businesses, etc... and make them foot the bill?

    Just want to hear a few opinions on this, especially the likes of Greenwave, Jet5, Plumb, CBTNY, Source....[/QUOTE]


    I'd also like to read some analysis of what the impact of this does to government revenue. The web site says it would levae enough money to fund social security and medicare, but sometimes tax-policy propsals like this are a trojan horse to starve government programs and entitlements that the proposers dislike.

    The other potential massive impact is on nonprofit organizations, which lean heavily on tax exemptions to get donations that fund many key social services. If government revenue drops and limits the government's already insuffiecient capacity in some of these areas, and non-governmental organizations suffer a decline in funding, you wind up with a potentially very bad situation involving human-service organizations such as food banks, shelters, health clinics, hospitals etc...

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    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Another question:

    There has to be a better way than income tax.

    My question is this:

    How does the government raise enough money to run countries, cities, etc. by paying for all the things necessary (roads, street lights, libraries, parks etc) without taxing its citizens?

    Can we change course and tax corporations, businesses, etc... and make them foot the bill?

    Just want to hear a few opinions on this, especially the likes of Greenwave, Jet5, Plumb, CBTNY, Source....[/QUOTE]


    I remember seeing a TV news story on the Fair Tax maybe two or three years ago. I don't fully remember their explanation, but I do remember the numbers showed that the government revenues from a Fair Tax would actually be higher than they are with the current income tax system.

    Sorry, I can't remember how they came to that conclusion.

    Actually, here's a good explanation from fairtax.org

    [URL=http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_faq_answers#5]http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_faq_answers#5[/URL]
    Last edited by Sourceworx; 07-11-2007 at 03:06 PM.

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    [QUOTE=sourceworx]I remember seeing a TV news story on the Fair Tax maybe two or three years ago. I don't fully remember their explanation, but I do remember the numbers showed that the government revenues from a Fair Tax would actually be higher than they are with the current income tax system.

    Sorry, I can't remember how they came to that conclusion.

    Actually, here's a good explanation from fairtax.org

    [URL=http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_faq_answers#5]http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_faq_answers#5[/URL][/QUOTE]

    That's an interesting analysis, but I think it's going to take some independent analysis before I'm prepared to jump on board. Has any government agency or nonpartisan thinktank analyzed this yet?

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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola]I'd also like to read some analysis of what the impact of this does to government revenue. The web site says it would levae enough money to fund social security and medicare, but sometimes tax-policy propsals like this are a trojan horse to starve government programs and entitlements that the proposers dislike.[/quote]

    The beauty of this is, politicians will not be able to set Americans against one another with taxation rhetoric.

    Need more tax revenue to run the country? Make your case to the people and raise the rate to 24%. Or 25%. Or, cut spending. And whatever your choice, Mr. Congressman, take your chances during the next election, because people will know what you voted for, and you won't be able to lie by saying bull**** things like "I voted for that before I voted against it, and it was the largest tax cut (increase) in history..."

    No way to hide behind 500 pages of a jibberish tax code bill, designed to prevent the average American from understanding what really happened.

    Politicians are afraid of the Fair Tax for good reason: Accountability. It forces them to show their hand.

    [QUOTE=nuu faaola]The other potential massive impact is on nonprofit organizations, which lean heavily on tax exemptions to get donations that fund many key social services. If government revenue drops and limits the government's already insuffiecient capacity in some of these areas, and non-governmental organizations suffer a decline in funding, you wind up with a potentially very bad situation involving human-service organizations such as food banks, shelters, health clinics, hospitals etc...[/QUOTE]

    People give because they want to give, not because the government wants them to give. As it should be.

    The more we stimulate truthful behavior, the better off we will be. Doesn't mean that there won't be pain during the journey, but the truth is better than a maze of lies.

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    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Another question:

    There has to be a better way than income tax.

    My question is this:

    How does the government raise enough money to run countries, cities, etc. by paying for all the things necessary (roads, street lights, libraries, parks etc) without taxing its citizens?

    Can we change course and tax corporations, businesses, etc... and make them foot the bill?

    Just want to hear a few opinions on this, especially the likes of Greenwave, Jet5, Plumb, CBTNY, Source....[/QUOTE]

    If you heavily tax the productive parts of society, you are giving a strong incentive to be less productive.

    "Hey, why should I work? I can just sit back and let other people (organizations) break their backs to generate tax revenue. Just send me a check, please."

    Taxing consumption generally produces better behavior than taxing production.

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    [QUOTE=rbstern]
    People give because they want to give, not because the government wants them to give. As it should be.

    .[/QUOTE]

    Idealistic, but not completely true.

    I know a lot of professional fund raisers, and they tell me that the estate tax is a huge driver of major philanthropic gifts, as are tax advantages. Many donors are, in fact, looking for tax breaks when they give, and this may encourage them to give more than they otherwise would to a cause they like.

    The ethics of that are dubious, perhaps, but it is true.

    I'm not saying this is a deal breaker, but nonprofits shoulder a lot of the social-service burden, and the impact of a "fair tax" on them has got to be studied exhaustively before such a shift takes place. (Second reason for this is that NPOs have become a massive industry employing hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people, and we can't take their jobs lightly.)

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    [QUOTE=rbstern]If you heavily tax the productive parts of society, you are giving a strong incentive to be less productive.

    "Hey, why should I work? I can just sit back and let other people (organizations) break their backs to generate tax revenue. Just send me a check, please."

    Taxing consumption generally produces better behavior than taxing production.[/QUOTE]

    But we have had an income tax for many years, and a very robust and productive economy for most of that period, no?

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    [QUOTE=sect112row36]Personnally I like it, however I cant see it happening as an across the board 23% relinquishes politicians power to "steer" the economy. It would get sticky in defining whats taxable and whats not taxable. Exports would need to be exempt from this tax as well.[/QUOTE]

    How is that any different than what we have now? Politicians decide regularly what can be written off income now.

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    [QUOTE=Greenwave81]How is that any different than what we have now? Politicians decide regularly what can be written off income now.[/QUOTE]

    The main difference, so far as I can tell, is that it eliminates the ability to govern through tax incentives and penalties.

    I happen to like some tax incentives --they can help people find work, afford college, etc...-- so I can't decide whether that is good or not.

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    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve]Another question:

    There has to be a better way than income tax.

    My question is this:

    How does the government raise enough money to run countries, cities, etc. by paying for all the things necessary (roads, street lights, libraries, parks etc) without taxing its citizens?

    Can we change course and tax corporations, businesses, etc... and make them foot the bill?

    Just want to hear a few opinions on this, especially the likes of Greenwave, Jet5, Plumb, CBTNY, Source....[/QUOTE]

    There is a widespread misconception that corporations pay taxes...they do not...ever. Corporations are not individuals, they are entities...like the government.

    Corporations exist for one thing, and one thing only...to make a profit. If they fail at that one thing they do, make a profit, they go out of existence. Corporations make products or sell services...and any taxes they may 'pay' are passed on to their customers in the cost of their product or service.

    Every time I hear someone say 'make the corporations pay more taxes!', I chuckle

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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola]The main difference, so far as I can tell, is that it eliminates the ability to govern through tax incentives and penalties.

    I happen to like some tax incentives --they can help people find work, afford college, etc...-- so I can't decide whether that is good or not.[/QUOTE]

    Here...I'll help you decide 'whether that is good or not'...

    Anytime the government gives someone a 'tax incentive' for something, they are stealing something from someone else to pay for it.

    And, if the government is making the decision, more often than not it will be wrong. Who do you trust more to make a decision that impacts your life...you, or the government?

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