Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 85

Thread: Interrogation & Torture

  1. #41
    [QUOTE=Jetfan_Johnny;2188224]This isnt about who ****ed up and who didn't, this is about the greater good.

    Sometimes you have to challange your personal ethics when dealing with an issue. I have absolutely no problem with the US Government using everything it can to protect me and my family.

    [B][SIZE="5"]The result DOES justify the means.[/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]

    No it does not.
    Im sure you wouldnt feel the same if you are acused of being a terrorist and suddenly locked up for 6 months, denied legal representation, tortured and have all your assets frozen, have your children go w/o a father and w/o your financial support...and then suddenly released and told "woops were sorry, we made a mistake". But you are still left on a list where your every move is scrutinized.

  2. #42
    [QUOTE=kennyo7;2188451]No it does not.
    Im sure you wouldnt feel the same if you are acused of being a terrorist and suddenly locked up for 6 months, denied legal representation, tortured and have all your assets frozen, have your children go w/o a father and w/o your financial support...and then suddenly released and told "woops were sorry, we made a mistake". But you are still left on a list where your every move is scrutinized.[/QUOTE]

    #1. This is about the greater good are you familiar with Utilitarianism?

    #2. None of those things you listed have anything to do with torture.

    #3. I find it hard to believe they are picking up random people and holding them that long. if they are holding you , there is clearly something about your life or history that is , at the very least suspect.

  3. #43
    [QUOTE=Jetfan_Johnny;2188540]#1. This is about the greater good are you familiar with Utilitarianism?

    #2. None of those things you listed have anything to do with torture.

    #3. I find it hard to believe they are picking up random people and holding them that long. if they are holding you , there is clearly something about your life or history that is , at the very least suspect.[/QUOTE]

    Being suspect is now grounds for being tortured? Our laws say "innocent until proven guilty."

    Conservatives used to be the ones who always pointed out how inept the government was. Now the attitude is: "if they are holding you , there is clearly something about your life or history that is , at the very least suspect," as you put it.

    Talk about blind faith.

  4. #44
    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2188571]Being suspect is now grounds for being tortured? Our laws say "innocent until proven guilty."

    Conservatives used to be the ones who always pointed out how inept the government was. Now the attitude is: "if they are holding you , there is clearly something about your life or history that is , at the very least suspect," as you put it.

    Talk about blind faith.[/QUOTE]

    First off. the legal system shouldn't apply to people who are held as potential threats to this country. They should be considered enemy combatants and held as such.

    Second I dont have a problem with accidently holding and sometimes torturing innocent people if it happens while trying to protect our country. My opinion is that I would rather hold ten too many than 1 too few.

    I really think in this case you have to think about the safety of the country and its citizens as the greater good. Ideally you wouldn't have to do this but the threat is there so you have to act accordingly.

    I think if the government did not do EVERYTHING it possibly could it would be incredibly irresponsible.

    We convict and jail innocent people in this country but overall the justice system does more good than harm, not to the person who was wrongly convicted but to the larger population.




    I realize I end up on the Conservative side of most arguments but
    since I am reasonably new, here is my stance on most if not all hot button issues in this forum:
    For the record:
    -I voted Democrat in the last two elections because I honestly thought they were the lesser of two evils. I am pro choice , pro gay union and partner benefits, pro death penalty and not a big gun supporter and I am a Christmas and easter type of catholic. I am conservative on taxes and smaller government. I will be voting Republican for the near future primarily because of the social programs being pushed from the left.
    I was against going into Iraq however, I think now that you are there you have to finish what you start.

  5. #45
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    6,877
    [QUOTE=bitonti;2186819]here ya go Warfish

    [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions[/url]

    if we don't live by it, how do we expect others to live by it?

    how can we maintain moral high ground when we don't abide by the geneva conventions?

    by the way you talk about empty rhetoric this administration has re-defined the word torture several times to meet their wants, that's a problem.[/QUOTE]

    Hey Matt.....where ya been?

  6. #46
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    6,877
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2186830]I don't know if you've heard Bit, but others don't live up to it. And beyond that, the very nature of those we're fighting specificly do not qualify for it.

    Ok, so I took a quick look, and I would assume the point you were making was this one:



    And again, that tells you what you CANNOT do. I'm asking what, then, CAN we do to extract information. Are you saying that the only possible option is to ask them once, and leave it at that?[/QUOTE]

    Does that mean you shouldn't either?

    Tough question Warfish...what about complete and total sanctions on a country...

    Example: Afghanistan is harboring terrorists. The United States cuts ties from them, and asks its allies to do the same. Now, if Afghanistan, in a global market, cannot sell or buy products, its people will begin to starve. Let the people put the pressure on their own government to root out the terrorists, or be overthrown.

    Now, in theory this is great, but does not get as fast of results as dropping bombs. The US pulls a lot of weight...Imagine if Canada refused to follow along with the sanctions against Afghanistan, and the US said the sanctions would extend to us as well. That carries some weight, I would think.....

    What do you think?

  7. #47
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,955
    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve;2188679]Does that mean you shouldn't either?

    Tough question Warfish...what about complete and total sanctions on a country...

    Example: Afghanistan is harboring terrorists. The United States cuts ties from them, and asks its allies to do the same. Now, if Afghanistan, in a global market, cannot sell or buy products, its people will begin to starve. Let the people put the pressure on their own government to root out the terrorists, or be overthrown.

    Now, in theory this is great, but does not get as fast of results as dropping bombs. The US pulls a lot of weight...Imagine if Canada refused to follow along with the sanctions against Afghanistan, and the US said the sanctions would extend to us as well. That carries some weight, I would think.....

    What do you think?[/QUOTE]

    It doesn't work.

    First, not even all of our Allies would agree to the sactions. Second, all of our enemies abroad would seek out trade with them to spite/fight us. Take it too far (sactions against those who refuse to bow to us) and we get the same as negative result as a War, just this time it's an Economic War, and we (in some ways) would be cutting off our own nose to spite our face, economicly speaking.

    Second, even when it hurts them economicly, it rarely removes the Regime. Look at Cuba, Iran, etc. We're hardly funding or helping them, yet they remain some of the bigger thorns in our side.

  8. #48
    As a believer in small government I donít support the concept of State sponsored torture. The problem with State sponsored torture which is really what we are talking about vs. private enterprise torture which is what our enemies have is once you set up a big bureaucracy to torture people that bureaucracy will have to be feed. We could look like the Spanish Inquisition in no time if we allowed and supported torture through the law and with government funds to government agencies. Pretty soon we will need a department of pain and a cabinet position and once the Dems are elected torture for all citizens is likely to become mandatory. We might even see a redistribution of pain if the State gets in the torture business.

  9. #49
    [QUOTE=kennyo7;2188451]No it does not.
    Im sure you wouldnt feel the same if you are acused of being a terrorist and suddenly locked up for 6 months, denied legal representation, tortured and have all your assets frozen, have your children go w/o a father and w/o your financial support...and then suddenly released and told "woops were sorry, we made a mistake". But you are still left on a list where your every move is scrutinized.[/QUOTE]
    We are talking bout P.O.W's here, not American citizens. And yes, by the way, these people are different, because they do NOT believe in the sanctity of human life here on earth. This is a major issue. For almost any other group, self survival plays into military strategy. Why all the discussion about torture? What they want is to die anyway, and claim their 17 virgins.

  10. #50
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    People are throwing around the word "torture" as if it is an easy thing to identify and define.

    We should just come up with a list of a few dozen things and all decide if we consider them to be torture or not.

    It seems as though liberals tend to see mere abuse as "torture" as if there are no degrees of abuse. In their zeal to further their "Bush has ripped the Constitution apart!" narrative, they end up defining torture down, which can have catastrophic results, including desensitizing people to real victims of real torture.

    When somone considers having dogs bark at a captive, or placing them in a hood, or making them strip naked as evidence of "torture" it makes a complete and utter mockery of people like the Holacaust victims and many US prisoners of war who actually did suffer real, sustained torture.

    The word "torture" has simply become a club for liberals to use to hit Bush with. They care little about having a mature dialogue about what specific interrogation techniques should be admissible and why and have no concept about what the Geneva Convention actually is or says, specifically, and how limited it is or how and where it applies. Liberals literally think Gitmo is some hellhole where captives are tortured around the clock, or they think that enemy combatants who aren't signatories to the GC at all are actually not only afforded GC protections, but also the protections of the US Constitution!! It is the height of absurdity.

    You begin to realize that liberals, largely, are not interested in serious discussions about these things. They simply spout talking points and sanctimonious garbage about the "moral high ground" as if they have any clue whatsoever about anything.

    So let's list some things and see what we all think.

    I don't think sleep deprivation is torture. I don't think water-boarding is torture. I don't think being forced to stand for a long time is torture. I don't think being subjected to loud music is torture. I don't think having dogs bark at you is torture. I don't think having a hood placed over your head or having your b*lls tied to a fake electrical outlet is torture. I do not think putting someone in a tiny dark cell in isolation is torture.

    I think severe, sustained beatings are torture. I think one not-severe beating (no broken bones, etc) is not torture, but is absue. I think being subjected to extreme tempuratures is torture or at the very least abuse. I think being electo-shocked isn't necessarily torture per se, but could become torture depending on length and voltage, etc. I think starvation is torture. I think any drawn-out method of execution, designed solely to maximize the duration and extent of suffering prior to expiration is torture. This is why most understandings of torture have been as a method of death. People can be tortured to death.

    What do people think we did to captives in every war we've ever fought? What do they think has been done to us? Look at what we did to Dresden, and those Japanese cities.

  11. #51
    [QUOTE=kaol;2188789]We are talking bout P.O.W's here, not American citizens. And yes, by the way, these people are different, because they do NOT believe in the sanctity of human life here on earth. This is a major issue. For almost any other group, self survival plays into military strategy. Why all the discussion about torture? What they want is to die anyway, and claim their 17 virgins.[/QUOTE]

    Since when are POW's in the hands of US forces tortured? I thought we were only torturing none military combatants? When is a none military combatant who was rounded up in a civilian area not a combatant? Why should we treat people based on their beliefs instead of our beliefs unless of course you think their belief structure whoever "they" are is more effective than our own?

  12. #52
    [QUOTE=kaol;2188789]We are talking bout P.O.W's here, not American citizens. And yes, by the way, these people are different, because they do NOT believe in the sanctity of human life here on earth. This is a major issue. For almost any other group, self survival plays into military strategy. Why all the discussion about torture? What they want is to die anyway, and claim their 17 virgins.[/QUOTE]

    The problem is not all of these prisoners are a threat to the USA. There is a good number who have been turned over by the corrupt Uzbek government and different Afghani Warlords because they are seen as threats/enemies to THEM not US. Regardless. People who are held captive by us, whether they are US Citizens or not, have certain rights. They deserve to be told what they are being held for and they all should have access to legal representation. If they are truly threats to our security this will be shown as such.

  13. #53
    [QUOTE=kennyo7;2188826]The problem is not all of these prisoners are a threat to the USA. There is a good number who have been turned over by the corrupt Uzbek government and different Afghani Warlords because they are seen as threats/enemies to THEM not US. Regardless. People who are held captive by us, whether they are US Citizens or not, have certain rights. They deserve to be told what they are being held for and they all should have access to legal representation. If they are truly threats to our security this will be shown as such.[/QUOTE]
    POW's who are captured during battle have no rights to legal representation in U.S. courts. Why do I get this feeling that you are an attorney?

  14. #54
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;2188811]Since when are POW's in the hands of US forces tortured? I thought we were only torturing none military combatants? When is a none military combatant who was rounded up in a civilian area not a combatant? Why should we treat people based on their beliefs instead of our beliefs unless of course you think their belief structure whoever "they" are is more effective than our own?[/QUOTE]

    Amen.

  15. #55
    [QUOTE=kaol;2188853]POW's who are captured during battle have no rights to legal representation in U.S. courts. Why do I get this feeling that you are an attorney?[/QUOTE]

    They have rights under the Geneva Convention.

  16. #56
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;2188811]Since when are POW's in the hands of US forces tortured? I thought we were only torturing none military combatants? When is a none military combatant who was rounded up in a civilian area not a combatant? Why should we treat people based on their beliefs instead of our beliefs unless of course you think their belief structure whoever "they" are is more effective than our own?[/QUOTE]
    Never said that they were. Hard for me to buy into a belief structure which hands an 11 year old a grenade, and tells him to kill a group of innocent kids as well as himself.

  17. #57
    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2188856]They have rights under the Geneva Convention.
    [/QUOTE]Not in civilian courts in the U.S. However, the ACLU and it's minions are working on that one.

  18. #58
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2188856]They have rights under the Geneva Convention.[/QUOTE]

    They most certainly do not.

  19. #59
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    11,692
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;2188811]Since when are POW's in the hands of US forces tortured? I thought we were only torturing none military combatants? When is a none military combatant who was rounded up in a civilian area not a combatant? Why should we treat people based on their beliefs instead of our beliefs unless of course you think their belief structure whoever "they" are is more effective than our own?[/QUOTE]

    I don't know exactly what "torture" is in this context. What is it? You blithely assert that we "torture" so and so, but what, specifically, are we doing? Secondly, it has nothing to do with their belief structure and everything to do with the fact that they are neither signatories to nor complying with the Geneva Conventions, and are thus not protected by them. To offer people the protections of an agreement they neither signed nor abide by is so foolish as to be beyond discussion. Further, the GC are not some small document with a single section at the bottom of which there is only one signature by each country and thus each country has "signed on" to every aspect in toto. Far from it.

  20. #60
    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2188873]They most certainly do not.[/QUOTE]

    Was referring to POWs in general, as referenced in the above post, not "enemy combatants" per se.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us