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Thread: God Bless America

  1. #21
    JetsPenny. It's late and I have to be up early. I'll try to get the time tomorrow to take this up.

    Sometimes there are two sides to an issue wherein intelligent, honest well meaning people can disagree (ever read about our Constitutional Convention:)?) This could come down to one of these times.

    But I assure you, I am not a segregationalist or a bigot - at least as I can best avoid being bigooted (I think all of us probably have a little bit in us that we have to keep working to extinguish. I do think we can get pretty good at extinguishjing:) ).

  2. #22
    [QUOTE=JCnflies;2197949]JetsPenny. It's late and I have to be up early. I'll try to get the time tomorrow to take this up.

    Sometimes there are two sides to an issue wherein intelligent, honest well meaning people can disagree (ever read about our Constitutional Convention:)?) This could come down to one of these times.

    But I assure you, I am not a segregationalist or a bigot - at least as I can best avoid being bigooted (I think all of us probably have a little bit in us that we have to keep working to extinguish. I do think we can get pretty good at extinguishjing:) ).[/QUOTE]

    Thanks I hope to be able to continue debating this with you, have a good night

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=Jetspennyfan;2197941]See my post to the other anti-gay rights person on this board, however you are not smart enough to have an intellegent arguement on this so I won't take too much of my time on this.

    1) Our country is a country based on the ideal that your religion should not be used against you. While you may see gays as being wrong, under our constitution you have no basis for your arguement.

    2) Can you agree that sometimes people are wrong? (answer this and I will make a very compelling case)[/QUOTE]

    First of all this country (it's beliefs and standards) were founded on the bible. You have no idea what you are even talking about. This country in the year 2007 is no longer interested in God or what the Founding Fathers set for this country. All the Founding Fathers were born-again Christians, every last one of them.

    Secondly, sometimes people are wrong. In fact most of the time they are. But guess what, God is never wrong and He was never wrong, and will never be wrong. God is perfect. It doesn't matter if you have 10 billion queers waving rainbow flags in the streets of this God-hating country, God says it's wrong. He makes the rules not you. He is the one who is giving you air to breath right now and can remove you from this earth at any second. If you disagree with what God says you are calling him a liar. Obey God and most of all Fear God.

  4. #24
    [QUOTE=sackdance99;2197966]First of all this country (it's beliefs and standards) were founded on the bible. You have no idea what you are even talking about. This country in the year 2007 is no longer interested in God or what the Founding Fathers set for this country. All the Founding Fathers were born-again Christians, every last one of them.

    Secondly, sometimes people are wrong. In fact most of the time they are. But guess what, God is never wrong and He was never wrong, and will never be wrong. God is perfect. It doesn't matter if you have 10 billion queers waving rainbow flags in the streets of this God-hating country, God says it's wrong. He makes the rules not you. He is the one who is giving you air to breath right now and can remove you from this earth at any second. If you disagree with what God says you are calling him a liar. Obey God and most of all Fear God.[/QUOTE]

    Ok, you just agreed that people can be wrong, and since interpretations of the bible were passed down from years to years they can be considered incorrect if people are incorrect, the bible is only pages with text on it, the only thing that matters is how you interpret the bible.

    And this country still believes in what the founding fathers believed (checks and balances, no?) but some of their beliefs were just wrong, are you in support of whites inslaving african americans again?

  5. #25
    I'll try to give an accurate and fair reason why I think there are justifiable reasons for not permitting gay marraige. To begin why I think we should not allow it is kind of a misleading question. The real question is why should you allow it. JetsPenny spoke of how it is possible to be wrong (and it is and segregation, slavery and women's rights are three good examples). But that does not mean that the notion of confining a marraige to a woman and a man is wrong ................... it is possible that it is right and the movement is wrong. Clearly our Constitution has gotten much more right than wrong.

    The first point I would like to make is what the basis for law is, at least as interpreted by the Courts. Up until about the year 1948, the courts interpreted law as derived from moral absolutes given by the Creator (God.) But at about that time and through the present day, law has been reinterpreted to what is best for managing society. For example, "Thou shalt not kill" and the other 9 Commandments adorn virtually every older courthouse in the country (and the Supreme Court itself). Because God said, it was outlawed. Nowadayhs, the courts view such basis for law as insiffucient. Instead, they think that murder is bad for society so it can't be allowed. This radical shift in perspective is what has caused the constant strain as the old interpretations are constantly being overturned (btw, the liberals know all of this very well which is why they fight to the death over SC candidates. If one more conservative like Alito or Roberts jolins Scalia and Thomas, the old interpretations may once again gain import.)

    All of this means that I can not simply state that gay marraige should be outlawed because God said homosexuality is wrong. I have to argue within the framework of what is best for society and with an eye toward maintaining an individuals civil rights.

    Why is a person homosexual? Some say that it is a lifestyle choice (environmentally influenced) and others say it is genetic.

    Let's consider the genetic argument first. Is someone born gay? One of the things that protraditionally family groups tout is tha there has never been a conclusive study proving that homosexuality is genetically caused. I honestly have never spent time researching this, but it seems to me that if the homosexual rights groups could prove this claim to be wrong, then it would be front page news and Focus on the family and Dr. James Dobson (a constant target of such groups) would be publicly ridiculed. That has not happened, so I tend to think this information is accurate. There may exist studies that have shown a link may exist, but that does not mean causality.

    But even if such a gene exists, it still would not settle the argument. Many people leave the gay lifestyle; in fact, an organization actively involved in helping those who believed they were born homosexual and had no choice in their sexuality is Exodus International. I do not know exactly what the numbers are or the percent of gays that leave the homosexual lifestyle is, but the numbers are not miniscule as many of those who choose to be heterosexual become involved in helping others leave the lifestyle.

    Now my question is this. Were the people who chose to leave born homosexual? Is the reason that they were living a gay life genetic? was it natural to them? See the thing is, if you ask any of them, they would say that it was (now looking back) not their nature at all to be gay. In fact, other factors lead to their living a gay lifestyle.

    The existence of many people who have left the gay lifestyle nad found contentment in heterosexual lifestyle means that either (1) the genetic predisposition is not what the gay movement would want us to think it is and (2) that the dominant factor, according to those who leave the lifestyle, is not genetic but rather environmental.

    Now what if being gay is a choice? If being gay is a choice, a society has every right to decide that that choice is outside the bounds of what is acceptable to that society. Let's look at some of the other choices that society makes.

    How come a man can fight and die for his country but can not buy a beer till he turns 21? Because it is what works best for society. Seriously, why doesn;t he have the right to buy a beer?

    How come a 30 year old guy can marry an 18 year old but not a 17 year old? Because that is what works best for maintianing society. Shouldn;t they have the "right" to marry?

    How come marraige should be limited to one man and one woman.......... why not one man and two women? Or three women? Or 100? Because it is in society's best interest to do so (as defined not by me but by our laws and courts.)

    If child molestation is genetic (as some would like us to believe) or environmental, how come it is outlawed? Shouldn;t those who wish to practice that particular form of "love" have the right to do so? (I am in no way equating homosexuals with child molestors, I am equating the notion that each of htese groups could argue that they have a right to pursue love and be recognized as they each see fit.) Who are we to say no?

    So my point here is to say that society does, of necessity, have to draw the line somewhere. As a democracy, where we choose to draw that line is a matter of public vote. To this point in time, we as a nation view homosexuality as outside the realm of acceptable relationships. Further, there are mountains of studies that purport to show that a breakdown in the traditional nuclear family is inevitably followed by significant societal strain and a negative impact on the society. For all of htese reasons, society surely has the "right" to disapprove.

    My free time is up and I did not quite pull it all together. I'l ltry to do that later.



    What about those who

  6. #26
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    I thought the God of Christians was a forgiving merciful God....why doe's he want to send homosexuals to hell so they can be tortured for eternity?

    I'd think that such a powerful all knowing entity wouldn't be threatened by guys in floral prints or women in Birkenstocks.

    Also...if God created us all and everything in existence should be attributed to God, didn't he create homosexuals too?

    Does that make God prone to mistakes? Not that I'm saying homosexuals are a mistake..personally I think they're humans beings like the rest of us and should be treated as such....but I digress....

    Are homosexuals God's mulligan? How do you explain them?

  7. #27
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    For you religious types....


    What would you do if one of your children was gay?

  8. #28
    [QUOTE=NYSE;2198355]I thought the God of Christians was a forgiving merciful God....why doe's he want to send homosexuals to hell so they can be tortured for eternity?

    I'd think that such a powerful all knowing entity wouldn't be threatened by guys in floral prints or women in Birkenstocks.

    Also...if God created us all and everything in existence should be attributed to God, didn't he create homosexuals too?

    Does that make God prone to mistakes? Not that I'm saying homosexuals are a mistake..personally I think they're humans beings like the rest of us and should be treated as such....but I digress....

    Are homosexuals God's mulligan? How do you explain them?[/QUOTE]


    This is an excellent question! I think the reason a lot of people ask this question is because they misunderstand why someone goes to Hell. No one goes ever to Hell for being gay - or an adulterer or for any other sexual sin.

    If you go to Hell, it is your choice to go to Hell.

    Through Jesus God asks you to make a decision, where do you want to spend eternity. One destination features a world where you decide that you like things just the way you want them to be - a world where man has the right to live as he will and is not subject to God's authority. God, the Bible and Christians call this place Hell. The other destination is one where you count on God to save you from such a future and you trust Him to be your Savior.

    God, in turn, gives you exactly what you ask for. So you do not go to Hell for being gay.

    When one talks about behaving as God wants you to, that is called sanctification, which is about becoming more and more like our role model, Jesus Christ. sanctification has absolutely nothing to do with justification, which is going to Heaven. A good example of this would be the thief on the cross. He died a thief and never had the chance to change his actions, but he professed faith in Christ before his death and Christ's last recorded words to him are "Today you will be with me in paradise."

    Think of the people Jesus chose to spend his time with .............. adulterers, harlots, tax collectors, etc. He always had com passion on them and not a sense of condemnation.

    Unfortunately, too many Christians mistakenly give of a sense of condemnation.

  9. #29
    If my kid was gay I would love him or her just like God loves us if we were gay. But that does not mean I would support or accept his lifestyle.

    Do you love your child if they go to jail or do drugs or commit adultery? I don;t have to apprive of what they did or are doing, but love for your child should be unconditional.................... like God's love for us.

  10. #30
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    But....isn't God responsible for creating the homosexual? How can God condemn something that he/she/it is directly responsible for?


    And...do you take the bible as literal? Do you actuall believe that the Bible is the word of God? Did God actually talk to those individuals that are responsible for it's creation? Or did a man write it without any influence from God?

    And if God did talk to those individuals, how come he hasn't ammended any of it in 2000 years? Did he forget to pay his phone bill?

    And since homosexuality is the "ultimate sin" in the eyes of God, how do you explain the clergy being filled with so many homosexuals? And how do you explain the Church engaging in coverups?

  11. #31
    [QUOTE=NYSE;2198448]But....isn't God responsible for creating the homosexual? How can God condemn something that he/she/it is directly responsible for?


    And...do you take the bible as literal? Do you actuall believe that the Bible is the word of God? Did God actually talk to those individuals that are responsible for it's creation? Or did a man write it without any influence from God?

    And if God did talk to those individuals, how come he hasn't ammended any of it in 2000 years? Did he forget to pay his phone bill?[/QUOTE]

    I'll try to answer these later - I lack the necessary time right now.

  12. #32
    here goes

    [QUOTE=NYSE;2198448]But....isn't God responsible for creating the homosexual? How can God condemn something that he/she/it is directly responsible for?[COLOR="blue"]You are assuming God input homosexuality into people and that those who practice such a lifestyle did not choose it. Personally I feel like environment plays a huge role in someone taking up the homosexual lifestyle. But I allow for the notion or idea that some may be more prone to be like the same sex. Not every guy gets an equal amount of testosterone or girls estrogen. But I think there is enough in each of us to enjoy a traditional relationship .................. but I don't know that for sure. I can say that I agree with one of the Bible's teachings - that we are drawn away of our own desires. I think that people make the choice to be gay. I do think that, for some, they have a greater predisposition toward making a homosexual choice. But I have a hard time seeing that they have any more of a predisposition to homosexuality than a man who has a strong sex drive does toward mating with more than one woman. Personally, I tend to think many guys who are gay are so, frequently, because of abnormal relationships with women................. domineering moms and the like. Before you laugh or mock the thought, I spent three or four years working in the Fire Island Pines - a huge and affluent gay community. I started work there with a mountain of prehudices that I learned to be horribly wrong and I learned that many of the people I spent time with were super people I feel lucky to call friends. Additionally, I have family members who have beenin the lifestyle. This is what I have seen based on years of contact with many in the gay community. It is also what I have heard from both men and women who have left the gay lifestyle.
    [/COLOR]


    And...do you take the bible as literal? Do you actuall believe that the Bible is the word of God? [COLOR="blue"]Absolutely[/COLOR]Did God actually talk to those individuals that are responsible for it's creation? [COLOR="blue"]You mean like a voice from the sky? Probably not very often. But I know when the Holy Spirit is speaking to me (for instance, if I condemn a man as being less a man than me for being gay) and telling me I did something wrong. I know that, likewise, God can and does speak to others. How else could you explain the fulfillment of prophecy. Try to explain the Book of Daniel any other way. Or the cohesiveness of the Bible during the 2.000 years it took to write it or the myriad of authors necessary. I think it is literal in everything we literally need to know. I think it literally recorded the details of Christ's crucifixion and ressurection. I think everything in it is true, but that some of it can be slightly open to interpretation (for instance, what exactly is a day in creation. Is it 24 hours or an era.) [/COLOR] Or did a man write it without any influence from God? [COLOR="blue"]If you have studied the Bible, you know that is impossible.[/COLOR]
    And if God did talk to those individuals, how come he hasn't ammended any of it in 2000 years? [COLOR="blue"]because in it He told you everything you need to know. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and lived as a perfect man. There is nothing left to add to it. take it or leave it, your choice and God will respect your choice.[/COLOR]Did he forget to pay his phone bill?

    And since homosexuality is the "ultimate sin" in the eyes of God, [COLOR="blue"]it is not. It is most abominable, but it is not the one that sends you to Hell.[/COLOR]how do you explain the clergy being filled with so many homosexuals? [COLOR="blue"]got to go, I'll answer this later.[/COLOR]And how do you explain the Church engaging in coverups?[/QUOTE]

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=JCnflies;2198595]here goes[/QUOTE]

    "Or did a man write it without any influence from God? If you have studied the Bible, you know that is impossible."

    If the Bible came directly from God, why did he omit so much information thats prevalent today? Especially since he gave us everything we need to know 2000 years ago.


    Nevermind bacteria, marsupials, asian's and dinosaurs to name a few.

    How about the fact that most Christian holidays were adopted from Pagan holidays. Jesus wasn't even born December 25...it was sometime in March or April.

    If God wrote the Bible, he's not as smart as most people give him credit for.

  14. #34
    [QUOTE=NYSE;2198686]"Or did a man write it without any influence from God? If you have studied the Bible, you know that is impossible."

    If the Bible came directly from God, why did he omit so much information thats prevalent today? Especially since he gave us everything we need to know 2000 years ago.[COLOR="Blue"]The Bible is not a science text, nor is it a history text (though it has some remarkable truths in it such as the existence of undersea mountains and valleys and the history of the Babylonian Empire, etc. Do you feel God owed it to us to explain absolutely everything? If God tried to explain things down to the microscopic level, would you then ask Him why he did not bother discussing quarks? I can see him trying to explain the existence of microscopic animals to people 2,000 years ago. [/COLOR]

    Nevermind bacteria, marsupials, asian's and dinosaurs to name a few.[COLOR="blue"]Dinosaurs are in the Bible (see the last few chapters in Job with reference to leviathon and behemoth.) Maybe marsupials existed in and around the Middle East and people knew what they were and have since died out. Why would God need to explain asians? Ask yourself why God would want to leave scriptures? It is to reveal Himself to us - not to answer our every question. Would you demand of Him that He fulfill what you expect of Him? That sounds a lot like the kid telling his parents how things are going to be - but on an even worse scale.[/COLOR]

    How about the fact that most Christian holidays were adopted from Pagan holidays. Jesus wasn't even born December 25...it was sometime in March or April.[COLOR="blue"]You are now venturing into an area that deals more with the church than with God. I have seen both sides of this debate as to Jesus birth date. The truth is that we will probably never know. And I do think the church at that time did conveneiently arrange things to appeal to pagans to appreciate the church more. Are you awrae that the easrly Christian church did not celebrate birthdays but instead celebrated the day of a man's death and his going to be with the Lord. No one has ever questioned the accuracy of the Easter date.[/COLOR]

    If God wrote the Bible, he's not as smart as most people give him credit for.[/QUOTE][COLOR="blue"]The only way you could possibly stae this is if you are ignorant of what is in the Bible. If you truly believe this, google things like scientific facts in the Bible, amazing Bible coincidences, Biblical prophecies fulfilled, etc. Then tell me how you think 100 or so different men over 2,000 years mangaed to pull this off. I need to go in two minutes, but the Cathloic church has handled the abuse cases horribly. I am not Catholic. But I would say that everyone is tempted - even clergy - and that they can be just as weak in the flesh as you or I. what they have done is horrible and inexcusable, but people did it, not God. [/COLOR]

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=JCnflies;2198711][COLOR="blue"]The only way you could possibly stae this is if you are ignorant of what is in the Bible. If you truly believe this, google things like scientific facts in the Bible, amazing Bible coincidences, Biblical prophecies fulfilled, etc. Then tell me how you think 100 or so different men over 2,000 years mangaed to pull this off. I need to go in two minutes, but the Cathloic church has handled the abuse cases horribly. I am not Catholic. But I would say that everyone is tempted - even clergy - and that they can be just as weak in the flesh as you or I. what they have done is horrible and inexcusable, but people did it, not God. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

    Thanks for the answers and insight. I look foward to hearing your ideas on this subject everytime I log in.:yes:

  16. #36
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    fag rag - oh yeah that is the christian thing to say...

    Let me tell you something - i have many gay family members and they are every bit as dysfunctional as I am or you are or any one else in this world is. A sexual preference should not add nor take away anyone's rights.

    I have gay family members who have been a couple for 10 years and for 24 years and have lasted longer than some other family members who have been married 2 or 3 times...

    I am not going to lecture - but the God i believe in loves all his children - gay straight, bi - black white etc.

  17. #37
    [QUOTE=NYSE;2198744]Thanks for the answers and insight. I look foward to hearing your ideas on this subject everytime I log in.:yes:[/QUOTE]

    Right back at ya:)

  18. #38
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    so we all agree, it's cool the US has a system of checks and balances, peaceful transitions of power, and we've never had the consitution suspended right ?

  19. #39

  20. #40
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    Homosexuality is just a path of sin. God doesn't judge cancer, cerebral palsy, diabetes or other diseases but he judges homosexuality as sin. Nobody wakes up one day saying I want to be a drug dealer, a pedophile, a shoplifter, an alcoholic or a queer. It is one of thousands of paths of sin they have chosen.

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