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Thread: Our Ineffective Educational System........

  1. #41
    Checking out what was said, I think some of the biggest issues mentioned are the money that is already spent on education, homelife and its effect on motivation, tenure and the quality of what our educational syetem produces -particularly in math and science. I'd like to add two topics not yet mentioned to that list. One is No Child Left Behind (NCLB) and the other relates to the type of education we are giving. please forgive what looks like uneducated drivel.... I spell well but am an awful typist!

    1) Spending more money doesn't work because the money is not spent wisely. Thinking that its mere usage will work automatically and stopping efforts to improve education after the money is spent is a big part of the problem. Could spending more money help? Sure. But it must be spent wisely. Someone hit on something very important in warfish' thread when they mentioned that our educational system is out of step with the times. If the money was spent to revamp the system rather than just to catch up to some sort of more equitable pay scale or technology gap, then spending money would help.

    2) Personally, I think one of the biggest problems we have is our school's need to appear good, rather than effective, to the community. The consequences of not looking good (administrative upheaval, voting down the budget, etc) frighten districts. Not only have standards dropped (you will be shocked at how much easier tests are today and the lengths to which schools go to reach down to students.) But schools are afraid to truly challenge kids - especially in math ands science. What the state has schools doing is acceleratinig kids in math and science, not taking honors programs. The diffeence is this: accelerated means that the top notch students learn the same exact material one year earlier that the state mandates for an average student. at no point in time are our supposedly brightest kids forced to put that birightness to the test by taking them deeper into the same content. To produce kids with a greater intellectual capacity, they need to tackle deep, demanding and difficult problems - the kind seen daily in an honors program. Schools would just as soon send the kids home with a 95 on their report card and the prestigious label of accelerated than deal with outrage from parents over a kid getting an 85 in an honors class.

    As for homelife and motivational........... I think the schools are suffering because of the breakdown of the nuclear family and our shift to a two income society. If (as is the majority of cases in most school districts on Long Island) parents have "x" amount of effort they can give and "y" amount of time they can give, the more x and y are devoted to work, the less are devoted to the kid. I am 44 and when I was young, Mom was always home with a snack after school and ready to make sure homework was complete and assignments caught up to. Furthermore, God help you if you got in trouble at school. A phone call home from school meant anything from a beating to a punishment. Nowadays, it is usually a confrontation witha parent about how wrong the school is. In many homes, particularly ones with a single parent, the exaustion of just trying to keep up not only has them giving less and less of x and y to their kids, but we teachers feel like sometimes the parents view sticking up for the kids against school is a way to garner their kids favor. In the past, parents worried more about raising kids right than making them happy.

    Tenure is a tough issue. I have seen it do good and bad. I think the idea of tenure is a good one - that before you can toss a teacher for being ineffective, you have to prive it. Tenure exists only because it was, at one time, common practice to get rid of teachers for reasons unrelated to job performance, not the least of which were notions like an unwed teacher getting pregnant and how "bad" that looked, political disagreements with the community or administration and an unwillingness to do as told by administration when what they wanted you to do was ethically questionable. The problem, as I see it, is that the pendulum has swung so far to the protect the teacher side that it makes removing some lousy teachers difficult and expensive. I don;t know what the answer is. I am sure of two things: one is that it needs to be revamped and the other is that some semblance of it must remain or else you will find an even uglier set of problems.

    Evaluating teachers based on performance is noy so easy, either. I have taught everything from regents level to acceperated to remedial. I have had honors classes that I could dog my way through the lessons and those kids were still going to pass and look good to the community. The best job I ever did teaching, arguably, happened about 8 years ago, NYS decided that, for thefirst time, every kid in the satate had to pass the 9th grade math regents or they would not graduate. Over the first two or three years, our district had a passing rate of about 30% from the kids that would not traditionally have taken the regents. As this class was not one that most teachers enjoyed teaching, we would pass the class from teacher to teacher eachg year to share the supposed burden. When it was my turn, I got 70% to pass. usually, on the regents with the students who traditionally took the regents, I would get 90%+ to pass. To the community, it looks like I had a horrible year at 70%. To those with inner knowledge, it was my best year.

    I guess what I am trying to say about tenure is that, if you want to have teachers earn the right of continued employment, you have to first create an equitable evaluation system. I have never heard of one, but that could be because most people don't spend much time thinking about it.

    One of the two topics no one mentioned that I think are pretty important are NCLB. No Chlid Left Behind does work - I have seen it first hand. But it is extremely expensive. My teachers union is against it on several fronts, not the least of which is that Bush and Congress have neglected to supply the funds that were promised. In order to bring the students lagging up to speed, it requires small classes and more teachers. This costs money. The gov't mandated it and the only way to pay for it is to increase the property taxes. In NYS, there have been three factors that have skyrocketed school taxes more than any other;

    1) LOTTO was originally designed to pay for education. Now only a fraction of it goes to education. THe politicians couldn;t keep their hands off the golden goose.
    2) When Cuomo was last reelected, he promised not to raise taxes - and he didn;t. In stead, he took huge amounts of the budget that were used for education and stopped fundin gthem - leaving the local districts to raise taxes in a huge way to make up the difference.
    3) NCLB and the gov'ts refusal to honor its commitmet to fund it. NCLB is up for renewal this yaer and districts are actively campaigning against it. Some kids will lose out if it is stopped, but property tax increases will ease.

    Finally, when we hear statitstics about how other countries are beating us in cvertain test scores like the SAT, I think it is important to know tha tthey do not have public schooling like we do. In many opther countries, by the time a student is in 8th or 9th grade, they take tests and evaluations are done that place the student either in to a vocational tract to learn skills like plumbing, cabintery, mechanics eventually to serve an apprenticeship or they continue in an academic track. While I am not sure 8th grade is the right time to do this, I think there is a lot of wisdom to this approach if what you are looking for is to create the best students possible nad to begin those who are not of a scholastic mindset to begin buidling a life they will better enjoy. The fact is that, with the least successful 30% or so out of school, the curriculum can be more demanding on the reamining students and the atmospheres in the schools will be more "scholarly." But taking this approach requires that you understand that some kids will not get the education they could have if we continued the present system. From a national standpoint, I think this system has the most potential for improvement in our international standings.
    Last edited by JCnflies; 11-05-2007 at 04:55 PM.

  2. #42
    [QUOTE=JCnflies;2197354]Checking out what was said, I think some of the biggest issues mentioned are the money that is already spent on education, homelife and its effect on motivation, tenure and the quality of what our educational syetem produces -particularly in math and science. I'd like to add two topics not yet mentioned to that list. One is No Child Left Behind (NCLB) and the other relates to the type of education we are giving. please forgive what looks like uneducated drivel.... I spell well but am an awful typist!

    1) Spending more money doesn't work because the money is not spent wisely. Thinking that its mere usage will work automatically and stopping efforts to improve education after the money is spent is a big part of the problem. Could spending more money help? Sure. But it must be spent wisely. Someone hit on something very important in warfish' thread when they mentioned that our educational system is out of step with the times. If the money was spent to revamp the system rather than just to catch up to some sort of more equitable pay scale or technology gap, then spending money would help.

    2) Personally, I think one of the biggest problems we have is our school's need to appear good, rather than effective, to the community. The consequences of not looking good (administrative upheaval, voting down the budget, etc) frighten districts. Not only have standards dropped (you will be shocked at how much easier tests are today and the lengths to which schools go to reach down to students.) But schools are afraid to truly challenge kids - especially in math ands science. What the state has schools doing is acceleratinig kids in math and science, not taking honors programs. The diffeence is this: accelerated means that the top notch students learn the same exact material one year earlier that the state mandates for an average student. at no point in time are our supposedly brightest kids forced to put that birightness to the test by taking them deeper into the same content. To produce kids with a greater intellectual capacity, they need to tackle deep, demanding and difficult problems - the kind seen daily in an honors program. Schools would just as soon send the kids home with a 95 on their report card and the prestigious label of accelerated than deal with outrage from parents over a kid getting an 85 in an honors class.

    As for homelife and motivational........... I think the schools are suffering because of the breakdown of the nuclear family and our shift to a two income society. If (as is the majority of cases in most school districts on Long Island) parents have "x" amount of effort they can give and "y" amount of time they can give, the more x and y are devoted to work, the less are devoted to the kid. I am 44 and when I was young, Mom was always home with a snack after school and ready to make sure homework was complete and assignments caught up to. Furthermore, God help you if you got in trouble at school. A phone call home from school meant anything from a beating to a punishment. Nowadays, it is usually a confrontation witha parent about how wrong the school is. In many homes, particularly ones with a single parent, the exaustion of just trying to keep up not only has them giving less and less of x and y to their kids, but we teachers feel like sometimes the parents view sticking up for the kids against school is a way to garner their kids favor. In the past, parents worried more about raising kids right than making them happy.

    Tenure is a tough issue. I have seen it do good and bad. I think the idea of tenure is a good one - that before you can toss a teacher for being ineffective, you have to prive it. Tenure exists only because it was, at one time, common practice to get rid of teachers for reasons unrelated to job performance, not the least of which were notions like an unwed teacher getting pregnant and how "bad" that looked, political disagreements with the community or administration and an unwillingness to do as told by administration when what they wanted you to do was ethically questionable. The problem, as I see it, is that the pendulum has swung so far to the protect the teacher side that it makes removing some lousy teachers difficult and expensive. I don;t know what the answer is. I am sure of two things: one is that it needs to be revamped and the other is that some semblance of it must remain or else you will find an even uglier set of problems.

    Evaluating teachers based on performance is noy so easy, either. I have taught everything from regents level to acceperated to remedial. I have had honors classes that I could dog my way through the lessons and those kids were still going to pass and look good to the community. The best job I ever did teaching, arguably, happened about 8 years ago, NYS decided that, for thefirst time, every kid in the satate had to pass the 9th grade math regents or they would not graduate. Over the first two or three years, our district had a passing rate of about 30% from the kids that would not traditionally have taken the regents. As this class was not one that most teachers enjoyed teaching, we would pass the class from teacher to teacher eachg year to share the supposed burden. When it was my turn, I got 70% to pass. usually, on the regents with the students who traditionally took the regents, I would get 90%+ to pass. To the community, it looks like I had a horrible year at 70%. To those with inner knowledge, it was my best year.

    I guess what I am trying to say about tenure is that, if you want to have teachers earn the right of continued employment, you have to first create an equitable evaluation system. I have never heard of one, but that could be because most people don't spend much time thinking about it.

    One of the two topics no one mentioned that I think are pretty important are NCLB. No Chlid Left Behind does work - I have seen it first hand. But it is extremely expensive. My teachers union is against it on several fronts, not the least of which is that Bush and Congress have neglected to supply the funds that were promised. In order to bring the students lagging up to speed, it requires small classes and more teachers. This costs money. The gov't mandated it and the only way to pay for it is to increase the property taxes. In NYS, there have been three factors that have skyrocketed school taxes more than any other;

    1) LOTTO was originally designed to pay for education. Now only a fraction of it goes to education. THe politicians couldn;t keep their hands off the golden goose.
    2) When Cuomo was last reelected, he promised not to raise taxes - and he didn;t. In stead, he took huge amounts of the budget that were used for education and stopped fundin gthem - leaving the local districts to raise taxes in a huge way to make up the difference.
    3) NCLB and the gov'ts refusal to honor its commitmet to fund it. NCLB is up for renewal this yaer and districts are actively campaigning against it. Some kids will lose out if it is stopped, but property tax increases will ease.

    Finally, when we hear statitstics about how other countries are beating us in cvertain test scores like the SAT, I think it is important to know tha tthey do not have public schooling like we do. In many opther countries, by the time a student is in 8th or 9th grade, they take tests and evaluations are done that place the student either in to a vocational tract to learn skills like plumbing, cabintery, mechanics eventually to serve an apprenticeship or they continue in an academic track. While I am not sure 8th grade is the right time to do this, I think there is a lot of wisdom to this approach if what you are looking for is to create the best students possible nad to begin those who are not of a scholastic mindset to begin buidling a life they will better enjoy. The fact is that, with the least successful 30% or so out of school, the curriculum can be more demanding on the reamining students and the atmospheres in the schools will be more "scholarly." But taking this approach requires that you understand that some kids will not get the education they could have if we continued the present system. From a national standpoint, I think this system has the most potential for improvement in our international standings.[/QUOTE]

    I think this is a well thought out and excellent post. I especially agree with what you said about education failing to change with the times. Growing up, my mother was there all the time and if a teacher reported bad news, I had a belt mark on my ass. Obviously, it would be ideal for women to return to the kitchens and homes :eek: but with raising costs, this just is not realistic. That is why if we spend more money on education, it should on after school programs or other things which are keeping kids in organized activities. The worst thing kids do is play on the streets or sit around and play video games.

  3. #43
    How would you like to judge the teachers by productivity? Look how well the standardized testing is doing. It's BS, it is window dressing.

    [QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2196784]How do bosses evaluate workers in other non-sales fields? Just because something is difficult doesn't mean we should say "screw it - everyone's the same[/QUOTE]

  4. #44
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    [QUOTE=cr726;2196739]Why does tenure automatically mean something bad? Job stability is a bad thing?[/QUOTE]

    Spoken like a true union man. :rolleyes:

  5. #45
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    [QUOTE=sourceworx;2196596]My wife is a first grade teacher in a charter school in a tough neighborhood in Queens (Far Rockaway). Before I get into my thoughts let me say that prior to her working as a teacher I thought they were useless. Her time there (this is her third year) has really changed my opinion on that. I have a ton of respect for what teachers go through every day. I wouldn't take that job for any amount of money.

    With that said from what I hear from her, a huge problem is the lack of discipline from home. So many kids that she deals with have parents that either let their kids get away with anything, or they just don't give a sh*t. Couple that with the fact that these days educators are powerless to properly discipline the students and you have a disaster. The teachers in the schools spend more time dealing with one or two kids who do not behave than they do teaching lessons to the rest of the class. Parents are called to either shape up their kids only to get cursed out or ignored. My wife has called parents to pick up their kids from school early because they are so disruptive that the rest of the class sits and does nothing while she's dealing with him, only to have the parent not show up until the end of the day. The mother will come in yelling at her saying "I have to work for a living!" and my wife tells her "So do I, and your child is preventing me from doing it!" She's told me stories from other teachers who experience similar things.

    Needless to say it's a major problem.[/QUOTE]

    To take this to an extreme, it gets worse when kids get older. I used to bartend, and at certain times of the year, we would do proms (hated those). Mainly very affluent schools in southern Cal.

    Rich kids overdosing, and crapping on themselves, only to have parents come in and defend the kid, saying that it wasn't on school property, so the teachers shouldn't discipline the kids.

    And, the prime story. A girl (about 16) leaves the dance floor with 2 boys. The school principal follows them outside, and a few minutes later, catches her going down on both guys. He immediately busts them, and calls the parents.

    The girl is not embarassed or apologetic, she curses out the principal that she wasn't doing anything illegal. The parents come, and when told of the story, proceed to yell and scream at the principal for embarrassing their sweet little daughter.

    The biggest problem to me is that parents don't discipline the kids. They tell the teachers to do it, and then subvert the teachers at every turn. But that is on society as a whole. If I take my kid out to a store, and he pitches a fit, and I spank him in public, some idiot can turn me in and I have to anwer to social services.

  6. #46
    [QUOTE=cr726;2197425]How would you like to judge the teachers by productivity? Look how well the standardized testing is doing. It's BS, it is window dressing.[/QUOTE]

    that's not my area of expertise but it doesn't mean it can't be done. just because something is difficult doesn't mean you rate everyone the same. that's more inaccurate.

  7. #47
    I am not in a union. You are much better off playing off CBTNY's posts.

    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2197570]Spoken like a true union man. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

  8. #48
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    [QUOTE=chirorob;2197583]The biggest problem to me is that parents don't discipline the kids. They tell the teachers to do it, and then subvert the teachers at every turn. But that is on society as a whole. If I take my kid out to a store, and he pitches a fit, and I spank him in public, some idiot can turn me in and I have to anwer to social services.[/QUOTE]

    That is so very true.

    There are parents that allow their kids to get away with everything, but there's also parents who have their hands tied by bullsh*t laws preventing them from doing what is necessary to discipline their children (Thank you lawyers! I hope all you motherf*ckers burn!)

    If a teacher called my parents because I was a problem in the school, I would pay for it in pain (as I should have). These days that is abuse, and people are brainwashed into thinking psychology and timeouts and all that other useless bullsh*t will do the job. My wife believed in that garbage until taking this job and seeing how things really work.

    My Dad always says that my great-grandfather would tell him that children are like dogs and they only know two things: [B]pleasure and pain[/B]. As a kid if I or my brother were misbehaving, all my dad had to do was loosen his belt and make the buckle rattle loudly. That was all the psychology he needed. Today that would be abuse.
    Last edited by Sourceworx; 11-06-2007 at 08:55 AM.

  9. #49
    my wife has been reaching for 23 years...here is her 2 cents...

    Union...she has mixed feelings. It protects crappy teachers AND good teachers.

    Standardized testing is producing a generation of kids who are good at taking tests but lack critical thinking and writing skills. Teaching to the test is has gutted curriculum badly. Anyone who thinks an improved test score on standardized test mean the kids are smarter...dream on.

    No Child Left Behind...the biggest scam ever perpitrated.

    Reform...always started by people without A DAY in a A REAL classroom.

    Try having a job where EVERY year you are threatened with a layoff and given a pink slip at the end of the year just in case...your entire field is denegrated on a constant basis...kids behaviour is YOU FAULT (never parents)...where you must accept every handicapped kid (physical and mental) who comes your way regardless of how much they disrupt your classroom...

    You do that for 23 years while eveyone else tells you what's "wrong" with education. Good luck.

  10. #50
    [QUOTE=FoxboroFanatic2;2202020]my wife has been reaching for 23 years...here is her 2 cents...

    Union...she has mixed feelings. It protects crappy teachers AND good teachers.

    Standardized testing is producing a generation of kids who are good at taking tests but lack critical thinking and writing skills. Teaching to the test is has gutted curriculum badly. Anyone who thinks an improved test score on standardized test mean the kids are smarter...dream on.

    No Child Left Behind...the biggest scam ever perpitrated.

    Reform...always started by people without A DAY in a A REAL classroom.

    Try having a job where EVERY year you are threatened with a layoff and given a pink slip at the end of the year just in case...your entire field is denegrated on a constant basis...kids behaviour is YOU FAULT (never parents)...where you must accept every handicapped kid (physical and mental) who comes your way regardless of how much they disrupt your classroom...

    You do that for 23 years while eveyone else tells you what's "wrong" with education. Good luck.[/QUOTE]

    I am glad this thread got bumped because I am quite interested in people's take on this. Everything you are saying is absolutely correct. My mother quit her job last year as a teacher after 35 years because some 27 year old teacher with a masters degree lectured her (as a result from paretns complaints) that yelling and saying no to children is not allowed at the school.

    I know the teachers are not to blame. But these masters programs (which some schools now demand teachers graduate with) subscribe to these ultra liberal methods of child reaering which lacks instilling discipline in children. Kids need discipline and if they arent getting that at home and teachers arent allowed to do what is necessary, we have a huge problem on our hands with our education system.

  11. #51
    Source, kids today have too much wiggle room. Sure the system is not great. Sure there is a lot of waste. Even private schools can be just expensive window dressings for learning facilities.

    My two sons have a choice, you do good in school or you answer to daddy about why you don't. No wiggle room.

    My oldest has always been an excellent student. I never pressured him into anything. I just build his confidence in himself.

    He had the some testing last year in Calc. He was a bit intimidated before the testing. I showed him where he has been applying the science in his real life. We converted those real life situations into formulas.

    He aced the test. I still have a long way to go with my youngest as he is just starting out. You never know and you can't take it for granted that he/she will do well.

    Not all kids are 'A' students and as a parent you have to accept that fact. However it does not allow them not to be execptional in attemtpting to be a better student.

    As for me, like you, my parents taught me the old fashioned way:D

    I remember the LAST time my mother came to the principals office and I had to meet her (OUCH!!!!) Still a long lasting memory:yes:

    When dad got home, he pitched in too:yes:

  12. #52
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    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg;2202082]Source, kids today have too much wiggle room. Sure the system is not great. Sure there is a lot of waste. Even private schools can be just expensive window dressings for learning facilities.

    My two sons have a choice, you do good in school or you answer to daddy about why you don't. No wiggle room.

    My oldest has always been an excellent student. I never pressured him into anything. I just build his confidence in himself.

    He had the some testing last year in Calc. He was a bit intimidated before the testing. I showed him where he has been applying the science in his real life. We converted those real life situations into formulas.

    He aced the test. I still have a long way to go with my youngest as he is just starting out. You never know and you can't take it for granted that he/she will do well.

    [B]Not all kids are 'A' students and as a parent you have to accept that fact. However it does not allow them not to be execptional in attemtpting to be a better student.[/B]

    As for me, like you, my parents taught me the old fashioned way:D

    I remember the LAST time my mother came to the principals office and I had to meet her (OUCH!!!!) Still a long lasting memory:yes:

    When dad got home, he pitched in too:yes:[/QUOTE]


    Dawgg I completely agree. My father was tough on me because he knew I was capable of doing better than I was in school. I just wasn't applying myself. He was absolutely right, I was a lazy kid. If he knew I was doing my best, he would have eased up.

    My wife has some kids in her class who are very bright, but don't apply themselves and/or just don't care and do as they wish. When she meets their parents she finds out why the kids are this way. Many of these kids have little or no guidance at home. It's really a shame because the kids are the ones that get hurt the most.

    In the case of your older son, that's great that you helped to show him a way of making the calc test easier to understand. That's good, responsible parenting. Unfortunately there are many kids out there that don't have that.

  13. #53
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg;2202082]Source, kids today have too much wiggle room. Sure the system is not great. Sure there is a lot of waste. Even private schools can be just expensive window dressings for learning facilities.

    My two sons have a choice, you do good in school or you answer to daddy about why you don't. No wiggle room.

    My oldest has always been an excellent student. I never pressured him into anything. I just build his confidence in himself.

    He had the some testing last year in Calc. He was a bit intimidated before the testing. I showed him where he has been applying the science in his real life. We converted those real life situations into formulas.

    He aced the test. I still have a long way to go with my youngest as he is just starting out. You never know and you can't take it for granted that he/she will do well.

    Not all kids are 'A' students and as a parent you have to accept that fact. However it does not allow them not to be execptional in attemtpting to be a better student.

    As for me, like you, my parents taught me the old fashioned way:D

    I remember the LAST time my mother came to the principals office and I had to meet her (OUCH!!!!) Still a long lasting memory:yes:

    When dad got home, he pitched in too:yes:[/QUOTE]

    If there were more parents like you, there would be much less of a problem. Many parents nowadays just dont stress education enough in their kids or they simply do not care. I try to volunteer in underprivledged ares on the weekends but it is a tough thing to do when these kids have no guidance at home.

    However, what your parents did to you, if it got out today that they did that, your home would be under parental guidance, which is a complete joke.
    Last edited by mallamalla; 11-08-2007 at 02:31 PM.

  14. #54
    Too much gov't in our lives

  15. #55
    [QUOTE=chicadeel;2196966]I think the problem starts with parents. You have to provide some kind of structure for kids to learn and be productive. When I was a kid, I can remember being asked, where are your books for homework. Also hearing, your not going outside until your homework is finished. I couldn't imagine the repercussions of the teacher calling home to complain about something.

    No matter how qualified and capable a teacher is if the kid is not structured, disciplined and motivated they are not going to learn.[/QUOTE]

    I hear people say "it starts with the parents" but it falls on deaf ears.

    I love my parents, they gave me every necessity I needed growing. Hell, I even realize the vast majority of the blame on where I am falls on me.

    STILL I do think when I have kids I'm going to do more to instill discipline in my kids. My parents were strict as hell until I was 12. Then...I don't know what happened. During HS I did whatever I felt like and now I'm paying for it.

    I realize maybe I should have grown up a little sooner, but um...who here was extraordinarily mature at 13, 14, or 15?

    Parents are a HUGE key to the adolescent years and I think my parents made a huge mistake there. And I KNOW they're not the only ones who did. When I was in HS, do you know how many kids I met who never even mowed a lawn before yet they were ALWAYS bored with "nothing to do?"

    Anyway three things that would help us out fast:

    1. Parents should get on their kids asses.

    2. Teachers should be allowed to discipline their students.

    3. Parents should back the *teachers* and not their idiot kids they never see on something once in a while.

    4. Math and science should be emphasized over history and english. Stop living in the past people. The best history teacher I ever had used history to make events relevant to us *today*...thats the only reason history should even be a subject at all.

    5. Technology. Most people who know how to use a computer are self taught. That shouldn't be...EVERYONE should know how to use a computer.

  16. #56
    I think education is overrated. I work with many intelligent people who don't know how to work together (i.e. as a team) or accept responsiblity. Too many with pride issues to ever admit a mistake or ask questions (and they end up doing it wrong, causing more work, and then spending an inordinate amount of time rationalizing what they did or trying to blame somebody else). But, where do you teach (or learn) that? Possibly in sports with good coaching or being a good coach?

    quote=JCnflies;2196517]In reading Warfish's top issues in the upcoming election thread, it struck me just how many people chose to include education - even above some other huge issues.

    I teach mathematics and coach for a living, and I am a conservative who (though stronlgy opposed to national teacher union politics) has done some work at the lowest levels of the union. Having been involved in this for 23 years has taught me a thing or two. But before I give my opinion, I would like to hear what everyone thinks the faults (and the strengths, if any) are.[/quote]

  17. #57
    The people who can't understand why there are great and ****ty teachers, should simply look at their own workplace. Is everyone a star? Yet, they all keep their jobs and a lot of them probably make more than you.

    Why should the teaching profession be any different?

  18. #58
    [QUOTE=angry jets fan;2202939][B]I think education is overrated. I work with many intelligent people who don't know how to work together (i.e. as a team) or accept responsiblity. Too many with pride issues to ever admit a mistake or ask questions (and they end up doing it wrong, causing more work, and then spending an inordinate amount of time rationalizing what they did or trying to blame somebody else). But, where do you teach (or learn) that? Possibly in sports with good coaching or being a good coach?[/B]

    quote=JCnflies;2196517]In reading Warfish's top issues in the upcoming election thread, it struck me just how many people chose to include education - even above some other huge issues.

    I teach mathematics and coach for a living, and I am a conservative who (though stronlgy opposed to national teacher union politics) has done some work at the lowest levels of the union. Having been involved in this for 23 years has taught me a thing or two. But before I give my opinion, I would like to hear what everyone thinks the faults (and the strengths, if any) are.[/quote][/QUOTE]

    All that comes with stronger education.

    Ask yourself *why* are these kids so socially awkward?

    1. They're kids still developing. They lack any real confidence.

    2. They usually have to find something else to connect with other kids on.

    3. Thats not exactly easy when a kids world is so limited.

    4. Sadly, ALOT of smart kids are forced to do stupid/bad things to "fit in."

    School and education aren't just the books and curriculum. You build your social skills in school. You make your friends. It's really a kids first chance in life to network and better yet *learn* to network.

  19. #59
    Jets Insider VIP
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    Van down by the river
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    [QUOTE=SenorGato;2202619]2. Teachers should be allowed to discipline their students.

    [COLOR="blue"]Ummmmmm. Not physical discipline. That wouldn't be cool[/COLOR]

    3. Parents should back the *teachers* and not their idiot kids they never see on something once in a while.

    :clapper: :clapper:

    4. [B]Math and science should be emphasized over history and english.[/B] [B]Stop living in the past people[/B]. The best history teacher I ever had used history to make events relevant to us *today*...thats the only reason history should even be a subject at all.

    [COLOR="Blue"]No. History should be taught more. Ask any kid a few easy history questions and you'll realize they aren't learning much from history class already.

    History IS relevant to us today.

    I do think schools don't spend enough time teaching modern history. I remember spending months on the Civil War, but about half a class on everything that happened since 1950.

    [/COLOR]
    [/QUOTE]

    .

  20. #60
    All League
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    Feb 2005
    Location
    Long Island, NY
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    3,497
    [QUOTE=sourceworx;2196596]My wife is a first grade teacher in a charter school in a tough neighborhood in Queens (Far Rockaway). Before I get into my thoughts let me say that prior to her working as a teacher I thought they were useless. Her time there (this is her third year) has really changed my opinion on that. I have a ton of respect for what teachers go through every day. I wouldn't take that job for any amount of money.

    With that said from what I hear from her, a huge problem is the lack of discipline from home. So many kids that she deals with have parents that either let their kids get away with anything, or they just don't give a sh*t. Couple that with the fact that these days educators are powerless to properly discipline the students and you have a disaster. The teachers in the schools spend more time dealing with one or two kids who do not behave than they do teaching lessons to the rest of the class. Parents are called to either shape up their kids only to get cursed out or ignored. My wife has called parents to pick up their kids from school early because they are so disruptive that the rest of the class sits and does nothing while she's dealing with him, only to have the parent not show up until the end of the day. The mother will come in yelling at her saying "I have to work for a living!" and my wife tells her "So do I, and your child is preventing me from doing it!" She's told me stories from other teachers who experience similar things.

    Needless to say it's a major problem.[/QUOTE]

    i totally agree. my mom and aunt (her sister) were elementry school teachers (in patchogue) for 30+ years and the crap that they go through with parents are ridiculous.

    just as an example, my 5 foot tall mother was physically threatened by a 200+ man because his 6 year old got in trouble for something. she's been sued many times for multiple things. like you said, teachers have really lost a lot of authority.

    now my wife is a high school teacher. (3rd year). she's kind of lucky. she teaches APChem, so her kids are usually less troublesome. but she still has those parents that complain at the drop of a hat. i always tell her, i could never be a teacher.

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