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Thread: Waterboarding is torture

  1. #1
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    Waterboarding is torture

    so says the guy who teaches it

    this is the prepared speech he gave congress, un-edited.

    [quote]
    Waterboarding is not simulated drowning -- it is drowning

    A former instructor at the school designed to teach U.S. soldiers how to resist torture speaks out against the "terrifying, painful" technique.

    By Malcolm W. Nance



    Nov. 09, 2007 | Chairman Conyers and members of the committee.

    My name is Malcolm Wrightson Nance. I am a former member of the U.S. military intelligence community, a retired U.S. Navy Senior Chief Petty Officer. I have served honorably for 20 years.

    While serving my nation, I had the honor to be accepted for duty as an instructor at the U.S. Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) school in North Island Naval Air Station, California. I served in that capacity as an instructor and Master Training Specialist in the Wartime Prisoner-of-War, Peacetime Hostile Government Detainee and Terrorist Hostage survival programs.

    At SERE, one of my most serious responsibilities was to employ, supervise or witness dramatic and highly kinetic coercive interrogation methods, through hands-on, live demonstrations in a simulated captive environment which inoculated our student to the experience of high intensity stress and duress.

    Some of these coercive physical techniques have been identified in the media as Enhanced Interrogation Techniques. The most severe of those employed by SERE was waterboarding.

    Within the four SERE schools and Joint Personnel Recovery community, the waterboard was rightly used as a demonstration tool that revealed to our students the techniques of brutal authoritarian enemies.

    SERE trained tens of thousands of service members of its historical use by the Nazis, the Japanese, North Korea, Iraq, the Soviet Union, the Khmer Rouge and the North Vietnamese.

    SERE emphasized that enemies of democracy and rule of law often ignore human rights, defy the Geneva Convention and have subjected our men and women to grievous physical and psychological harm. We stress that enduring these calumnies will allow our soldiers to return home with honor.

    The SERE community was designed over 50 years ago to show that, as a torture instrument, waterboarding is a terrifying, painful and humiliating tool that leaves no physical scars and which can be repeatedly used as an intimidation tool.

    Waterboarding has the ability to make the subject answer any question with the truth, a half-truth or outright lie in order to stop the procedure. Subjects usually resort to all three, often in rapid sequence. Most media representations or recreations of the waterboarding are inaccurate, amateurish and dangerous improvisations, which do not capture the true intensity of the act. [B]Contrary to popular opinion, it is not a simulation of drowning -- it is drowning. [/B]

    In my case, the technique was so fast and professional that I didnít know what was happening until the water entered my nose and throat. It then pushes down into the trachea and starts the process of respiratory degradation.

    It is an overwhelming experience that induces horror and triggers frantic survival instincts. [B]As the event unfolded, I was fully conscious of what was happening -- I was being tortured. [/B]

    Proponents claim that American waterboarding is acceptable because it is done rarely, professionally and only on truly deserving terrorists like 9/11 planner Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Media reporting revealed that tough interrogations were designed to show we had "taken the gloves off."

    It also may have led directly to prisoner abuse and murder in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

    The debate surrounding waterboarding has been lessened to a question of he-said, she-said politics. But I believe that, as some view it as now acceptable, it is symptomatic of a greater problem.

    We must ask ourselves, has America unwittingly relinquished its place as the guardian of human rights and the beacon of justice? Do we now agree that our unique form of justice, based on the concepts of fairness, honor and the unwavering conviction that America is better than its enemies, should no longer govern our intelligence agencies?

    This has now been clearly called into question.

    On the morning of September 11, at the green field next to a burning Pentagon, I was a witness to one of the greatest displays of heroism in our history. American men and women, both military and civilian, repeatedly and selflessly risked their lives to save those around them. At the same time, hundreds of American citizens gave their lives to save thousands in both Washington DC and New York City. It was a painful day for all of us.

    But, does the ultimate goal of protecting America require us to adopt policies that shift our mindset from righteousness and self-defense to covert cruelty?

    Does protecting America "at all costs" mean sacrificing the Constitution, our laws and the Bill of Rights in order to save it? I do not believe that.

    The attacks of September 11 were horrific, but they did not give us the right to destroy our moral fabric as a nation or to reverse a course that for two hundred years led the world towards democracy, prosperity and guaranteed the rights of billions to live in peace.

    We must return to using our moral compass in the fight against al-Qaida. Had we done so initially we would have had greater success to stanch out terrorist activity and perhaps would have captured Osama bin Laden long ago. Shocking the world by bragging about how professional our brutality was was counter-productive to the fight. There are ways to get the information we need. Perhaps less-kinetic interrogation and indoctrination techniques could have brought more al-Qaida members and active supporters to our side. That edge may be lost forever.

    More importantly, our citizens once believed in the justness of our cause. Now, we are divided. Many have abandoned their belief in the fight because they question the commitment to our own core values. Allied countries, critical to the war against al-Qaida, may not supply us with the assistance we need to bring terrorists to justice. I believe that we must reject the use of the waterboard for prisoners and captives and cleanse this stain from our national honor.


    -- By Malcolm W. Nance

    [/quote]

    ok Bush supporters take your best shot at this guy

    [IMG]http://images.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/11/09/nance/story.jpg[/IMG]

  2. #2
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    Of course waterboarding is torture and there are a lot of other things they do that is torture and it has been done since this country has been around now matter who was the president. Blame this all you want on Bush but every country including the US uses torture, they always have and they always will.

    Just send the people we want torture to Israel they love doing it and they aren't worried about being pc about it.

  3. #3
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    Mr. Nance is a true patriot whose service honors our country and the ideals that is was founded on.

    I was struck by
    [QUOTE]SERE trained tens of thousands of service members of its historical use by the Nazis, the Japanese, North Korea, Iraq, the Soviet Union, the Khmer Rouge and the North Vietnamese. [/QUOTE]
    Do we want to add the United States of America under George Bush to this list? How sad to be in such company, and no not all Presidents have done this nor does Israel.

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    [QUOTE=Queens Jet Fan;2203725]and no not all Presidents have done this nor does Israel.[/QUOTE]

    LOL, yea Israel is just a poor picked on country that has never done anything wrong. Give me a break, the US and Israel have always and will always torture people. I'm not saying that they used waterboarding I'm saying they have used torture. There is a lot of methods of torture and the Asians and Arabs aren't the only ones that have used them.


    Read this and then say Israel doesn't use torture.
    [url]http://www.hrw.org/press98/may/isra0515.htm[/url]
    Last edited by New York Mick; 11-09-2007 at 03:33 PM.

  5. #5
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    [QUOTE]Waterboarding has the ability to make the subject answer any question with the truth, a half-truth or outright lie in order to stop the procedure. Subjects usually resort to all three, often in rapid sequence.[/QUOTE]

    [IMG]http://www.ideagrove.com/blog/uploaded_images/monty_python_witch-701441.jpg[/IMG]

    [B][SIZE="4"]SHE'S A WITCH! BURN HER![/SIZE][/B]

  6. #6
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2203684]so says the guy who teaches it

    this is the prepared speech he gave congress, un-edited.



    ok Bush supporters take your best shot at this guy

    [IMG]http://images.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/11/09/nance/story.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

    Why are you so concerned with the comfort of a useless shot of monkey spunk?

    I wish KSM writhed in agony every day.

    I wish he were being held in a cesspool and being fed rat sh*t by slingshot every day.

    He is a worthless, useless pile of baboon sh*t that masterminded the murder of 3000 innocent people.



    I'll never forget seeing a video of a little three year old girl going to Disney World on one of the planes that crashed into the towers.

    In the video she was a happy smiling beautiful innocent little thing. And to think these animals vaporized her and others and were bragging about it?

    Maybe you don't have any kids Bitonti so maybe you don't understand.

    So KSM had water poured over his face once. Big fuqin deal.

    Compared to what he did to 3000 people, I'd say he has it pretty good.....

  7. #7
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    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;2203794]Why are you so concerned with the comfort of a useless shot of monkey spunk?

    I wish KSM writhed in agony every day.

    I wish he were being held in a cesspool and being fed rat sh*t by slingshot every day.

    He is a worthless, useless pile of baboon sh*t that masterminded the murder of 3000 innocent people.



    I'll never forget seeing a video of a little three year old girl going to Disney World on one of the planes that crashed into the towers.

    In the video she was a happy smiling beautiful innocent little thing. And to think these animals vaporized her and others and were bragging about it?

    Maybe you don't have any kids Bitonti so maybe you don't understand.

    So KSM had water poured over his face once. Big fuqin deal.

    Compared to what he did to 3000 people, I'd say he has it pretty good.....[/QUOTE]


    I am concerned about the Constitution of the united stated of America and the next 300 years that it exists. Stop being selfish. We are the greatest country in the history of mankind and we do not need to lower ourselves or our principles to stop anyone.

    Do you think AQ is more powerful than the Nazi's or the USSR?

  8. #8
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    [QUOTE=Buster;2203821]I am concerned about the Constitution of the united stated of America and the next 300 years that it exists.

    [/QUOTE]

    What do you think the men who wrote the Constitution would do with this guy?

    I guarantee you he wouldn't have it as good as he does now.

  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2203684]so says the guy who teaches it

    this is the prepared speech he gave congress, un-edited.



    ok Bush supporters take your best shot at this guy

    [IMG]http://images.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/11/09/nance/story.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

    If waterboarding is drowning, wouldn't this guy be dead?

    KSM is a US citizen, endowed with rights under our Constitution? KSM is a signatory to and adherent of the Geneva Convention, thus afforded its protections?

    Have I missed something here?
    Last edited by jets5ever; 11-09-2007 at 04:35 PM.

  10. #10
    flushingjet
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    them or us,
    kill or be killed

    already was presented with this choice
    on 9/11- i prefer us

    wish i knew why some of "us" like
    "them" better than "us"

    when and where do "them" deserve or get assigned
    the rights, the privileges of "us"?

    when and where do "them" have morals or culture
    coming within a desert mile of "us"?

    only in the tiny minds of lib* freaks
    [SIZE=1]*liberals and libertarians[/SIZE]

  11. #11
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    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;2203826]What do you think the men who wrote the Constitution would do with this guy?

    I guarantee you he wouldn't have it as good as he does now.[/QUOTE]

    Last night on the news hour Malcolm Wrightson Nance pointed out that "...General George Washington created the American policy on the handling of prisoners..."

    [URL="http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/july-dec07/waterboarding_11-08.html"]http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/july-dec07/waterboarding_11-08.html[/URL]

    Here is another example of Washington's treatment of prisoners from the Christian Science Monitor

    [URL="http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0614/p09s02-coop.html"]http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0614/p09s02-coop.html[/URL]

    But George Washington and his compatriots took their founding principles quite seriously. On Aug. 11, 1775, Washington sent a blistering letter to a British counterpart, Thomas Gage. He complained about gravely wounded and untreated American soldiers being thrown into a jail with common criminals.

    Eight days later, despite threatening to treat British soldiers with equal cruelty, Washington admitted that he could not and would not retaliate in kind, writing: "Not only your Officers, and Soldiers have been treated with a Tenderness due to Fellow Citizens, & Brethren; but even those execrable Parricides [traitors] whose Counsels & Aid have deluged their Country with Blood, have been protected from the Fury of a justly enraged People."

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2203845]If waterboarding is drowning, wouldn't this guy be dead?

    KSM is a US citizen, endowed with rights under our Constitution? KSM is a signatory to and adherent of the Geneva Convention, thus afforded its protections?

    Have I missed something here?[/QUOTE]

    Like it or not it is settled law that constitutional rights apply to [B][U]all [/U][/B]men.

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2203845]
    Have I missed something here?[/QUOTE]

    how about the effectiveness of torture as an interrogation technique?

    how about the moral high ground in the war on terror?

    you are missing alot, and while you might know more than me on the subject, i doubt you (and flushing, dean, CBNY) know more about it than Mr Nance, who seems to be about the furthest thing from a liberal as a person can be.

  14. #14
    flushingjet
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    [quote=Buster;2203866]Like it or not it is settled law that constitutional rights apply to [B][U]all [/U][/B]men.[/quote]

    bzzt! wrong..

    full constitutional due process protections apply on U.S. territory to citizens and legal residents or visitors, provided they did not gain legal entry by fraud

    thanks for playing

  15. #15
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    [QUOTE=Buster;2203866]Like it or not it is settled law that constitutional rights apply to [B][U]all [/U][/B]men.[/QUOTE]

    Uh, no.

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2203845]If waterboarding is drowning, wouldn't this guy be dead?

    KSM is a US citizen, endowed with rights under our Constitution? KSM is a signatory to and adherent of the Geneva Convention, thus afforded its protections?

    Have I missed something here?[/QUOTE]

    So are there any boundaries here on what you can do to the guy? Can you kill him if you wanted to? Would that be right?

    Seriously what rules do apply to him? Is it because he doesn't operate under any rules then no rules apply to the US?

  17. #17
    flushingjet
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    [quote=bitonti;2203867]how about the effectiveness of torture as an interrogation technique?

    how about the moral high ground in the war on terror?

    you are missing alot, and while you might know more than me on the subject, i doubt you (and flushing, dean, CBNY) know more about it than Mr Nance, who seems to be about the furthest thing from a liberal as a person can be.[/quote]

    people like you are the reason everytime i kill an intruder
    i stick a bread knife in their hand

    but seriously

    who cares what a lib* has to say about torture in
    a politically motivated salon magazine article?

  18. #18
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    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;2203794]Why are you so concerned with the comfort of a useless shot of monkey spunk?

    I wish KSM writhed in agony every day.

    I wish he were being held in a cesspool and being fed rat sh*t by slingshot every day.

    He is a worthless, useless pile of baboon sh*t that masterminded the murder of 3000 innocent people.



    I'll never forget seeing a video of a little three year old girl going to Disney World on one of the planes that crashed into the towers.

    In the video she was a happy smiling beautiful innocent little thing. And to think these animals vaporized her and others and were bragging about it?

    Maybe you don't have any kids Bitonti so maybe you don't understand.

    So KSM had water poured over his face once. Big fuqin deal.

    Compared to what he did to 3000 people, I'd say he has it pretty good.....[/QUOTE]


    This posting is the perfect example of the reason why people have used torture techniques on prisoners. It has nothing to do with getting reliable information. Everyone knows torture is not reliable in obtaining this. No. Torture is all about one thing and one thing only.....REVENGE!!!

  19. #19
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    [QUOTE=Buster;2203865]Last night on the news hour Malcolm Wrightson Nance pointed out that "...General George Washington created the American policy on the handling of prisoners..."

    [URL="http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/july-dec07/waterboarding_11-08.html"]http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/july-dec07/waterboarding_11-08.html[/URL]

    Here is another example of Washington's treatment of prisoners from the Christian Science Monitor

    [URL="http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0614/p09s02-coop.html"]http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0614/p09s02-coop.html[/URL]

    But George Washington and his compatriots took their founding principles quite seriously. On Aug. 11, 1775, Washington sent a blistering letter to a British counterpart, Thomas Gage. He complained about gravely wounded and untreated American soldiers being thrown into a jail with common criminals.

    Eight days later, despite threatening to treat British soldiers with equal cruelty, Washington admitted that he could not and would not retaliate in kind, writing: "Not only your Officers, and Soldiers have been treated with a Tenderness due to Fellow Citizens, & Brethren; but even those execrable Parricides [traitors] whose Counsels & Aid have deluged their Country with Blood, have been protected from the Fury of a justly enraged People."[/QUOTE]

    WAR PRISONERS... Men who wear the uniform of another country and fight against soldiers.

    This guy is a TERRORIST. He slaughters innocent civilians. Men, women and little three year old girls.

    He should be drawn and quartered in a public square. I'd pay to see it....

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7;2203902]This posting is the perfect example of the reason why people have used torture techniques on prisoners. It has nothing to do with getting reliable information. Everyone knows torture is not reliable in obtaining this. No. Torture is all about one thing and one thing only.....REVENGE!!![/QUOTE]

    Unlike you, I don't think he should be put up in a five star hotel.

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