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Thread: Waterboarding is torture

  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2203867]how about the effectiveness of torture as an interrogation technique?

    how about the moral high ground in the war on terror?

    you are missing alot, and while you might know more than me on the subject, i doubt you (and flushing, dean, CBNY) know more about it than Mr Nance, who seems to be about the furthest thing from a liberal as a person can be.[/QUOTE]

    I thought the waterboarding of KSM was effective, no?

    What moral high ground? Are you honestly trying to equate waterboarding with be-headings? With dragging dead bodies through the streets? With hiding weapons in schools and using women and children as human shields?

    Mr. Nance has an opinion. Good for him. Lots of people have lots of opinions. Hell, Eric Mangini has forgotten more about football than I'll ever know, but even I knew he was wrong to stay with Pennington for so long.

    Waterboarding is certainly a tough call. I just don't think its torture. I can understand why some people do. I just don't. I have a high treshhold for what I think should be called torture.

  2. #22
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    Have you read about all the things KSM admitted to? Over the top. Why didn't he hand us Osama?


    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2203920]I thought the waterboarding of KSM was effective, no?

    What moral high ground? Are you honestly trying to equate waterboarding with be-headings? With dragging dead bodies through the streets? With hiding weapons in schools and using women and children as human shields?

    Mr. Nance has an opinion. Good for him. Lots of people have lots of opinions. Hell, Eric Mangini has forgotten more about football than I'll ever know, but even I knew he was wrong to stay with Pennington for so long.

    Waterboarding is certainly a tough call. I just don't think its torture. I can understand why some people do. I just don't. I have a high treshhold for what I think should be called torture.[/QUOTE]

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=Queens Jet Fan;2203878]So are there any boundaries here on what you can do to the guy? Can you kill him if you wanted to? Would that be right?

    Seriously what rules do apply to him? Is it because he doesn't operate under any rules then no rules apply to the US?[/QUOTE]

    We are bound by the rules we come up with, our own policies and procedures, keeping in mind many things, among which are international reputation, effectiveness in battle and the quest to gather useful intelligence, compliance with the spirit of the aspects of certain treaties to which we think are germane, providing flexibility to handle as many future unknowns as possible, all while bearing in mind that we need to be specific enough so that people actually making these decisions have a reasonably clear guideline. This is a serious discussion that needs to have serious attitude and not just some Gotcha! game where liberals say conservatives are as bad as Pol Pot and conservatives say liberals like to put up terrorists in 5-star hotels. This is a difficult, complex issue in a new environment in which many of the captives are not uniformed soldiers fighting in a traditional mannar, but rather stateless operatives who are we are encountering in heretofore unconventional types of battlefields and situations. We should have these discussions in a sober fashion, without each side trying to score short term political points.

    I think waterboarding is okay. It doesn't mean I think everything is okay. You don't think waterboarding is okay, but I am sure we could find some technique that you think is okay but that someone else thinks is abuse or even torture. We may draw the line at different spots, but we each acknolwegde that there is a line and this is not something that can easily be discussed in solely abstract terms. We need specific, detailed guidance.

    That's why pompous, ignorant appeals to authority in a clearly political context, like this thread from Bitonti, are ultimately pointless. He's not interested in a discussion at all.

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=cr726;2203925]Have you read about all the things KSM admitted to? Over the top. Why didn't he hand us Osama?[/QUOTE]

    We go nothing of value from him??

  5. #25
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    The highest value was getting him period.


    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2203928]We go nothing of value from him??[/QUOTE]

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2203928]We go nothing of value from him??[/QUOTE]
    On the whole...no we did not. If you consider all the BS he fed authorities and the wild goose chaces he put them on and all the time our agents wasted following the false leads we did not gain much.

    When you consider the BS he fed us and the time wasted chasing down all the false leads, the ridiculous scenario that the Right alway regurgitates about how "if you had only moments to discover where a dirty bomb was placed that will kill hundreds of thousands wouldnt you use torture" makes that answer very easy. torture would likely not get you the right info and in fact may cost you lives b/c of time wasted tracking false leads.

  7. #27
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    Kenny, cr -

    So, 0.00% of what KSM told us was useful? Is that your contention?

  8. #28
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    First off I could careless if the US or anyother country tortures people as long as it's not me and it's never going to stop so there is no point of debating that part. As far as watering boarding goes, unless you have had it done to you you can not make an educated statement about it. If you read what is considered torture under all of the different Conventions, then waterboarding is torture, plain and simple.

    If you do not think waterboarding is torture then set up a date with Sooth and I will waterboard anyone on this site live online and place bets that you can not make one minute. Everything I have read and a few people from the SECOPS that I have talked to said it was ****ing bad and within a few seconds you felt like you were going to die. Or just have your wife or friend do it to you.

    And as I said before I could careless who the US is torturing unless it is me.

  9. #29
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    0%, no I think he probably confirmed some things we had already. Not much beyond that. Why would he care if he was tortured? He is going to see 69 virgins, these guys are doing for the love of their religion and could care less what we do to them once caught.

    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2204031]Kenny, cr -

    So, 0.00% of what KSM told us was useful? Is that your contention?[/QUOTE]

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2203926]We are bound by the rules we come up with, our own policies and procedures, keeping in mind many things, among which are international reputation, effectiveness in battle and the quest to gather useful intelligence, compliance with the spirit of the aspects of certain treaties to which we think are germane, providing flexibility to handle as many future unknowns as possible, all while bearing in mind that we need to be specific enough so that people actually making these decisions have a reasonably clear guideline. This is a serious discussion that needs to have serious attitude and not just some Gotcha! game where liberals say conservatives are as bad as Pol Pot and conservatives say liberals like to put up terrorists in 5-star hotels. This is a difficult, complex issue in a new environment in which many of the captives are not uniformed soldiers fighting in a traditional mannar, but rather stateless operatives who are we are encountering in heretofore unconventional types of battlefields and situations. We should have these discussions in a sober fashion, without each side trying to score short term political points.

    I think waterboarding is okay. It doesn't mean I think everything is okay. You don't think waterboarding is okay, but I am sure we could find some technique that you think is okay but that someone else thinks is abuse or even torture. We may draw the line at different spots, but we each acknolwegde that there is a line and this is not something that can easily be discussed in solely abstract terms. We need specific, detailed guidance.

    That's why pompous, ignorant appeals to authority in a clearly political context, like this thread from Bitonti, are ultimately pointless. He's not interested in a discussion at all.[/QUOTE]

    So we are bound by the rules we come up with. Who is the we? The military? The President? Congress? Courts? Are we in extraconstitutional territory here? Is there any oversight on the decision makers? We are not an authoritarian regime where all the power are in the hands of a few. This administration seems to act like one.

    Most of the experts on interregation say that torture is not affective. There are better ways to come up with the information. On a base level torture is satisfying because these are really bad people, and we want to hurt them badly.

    However if the motive is to get really useful information out of them it appears that torturing is not the way to go.

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2203928]We go nothing of value from him??[/QUOTE]

    Jets5.

    People confessed to being witches and demon summoners under duress of torture in our worlds shiny history.

    Was that actionable intelligence?

  12. #32
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    Stop thinking pre 9-11. This is a new day baby! We are allowed to act like the monsters we despise.

    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2204458]Jets5.

    People confessed to being witches and demon summoners under duress of torture in our worlds shiny history.

    Was that actionable intelligence?[/QUOTE]

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2204458]Jets5.

    People confessed to being witches and demon summoners under duress of torture in our worlds shiny history.

    Was that actionable intelligence?[/QUOTE]

    I believe the methods are a bit more sophisticated now than they were in 17th century America.

  14. #34
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    You believe a lot of things that aren't true.

    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;2204515]I believe the methods are a bit more sophisticated now than they were in 17th century America.[/QUOTE]

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=cr726;2204516]You believe a lot of things that aren't true.[/QUOTE]

    Like Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny and Muslim Terrorists who want to kill us all?

  16. #36
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    No the terrorist would leave you alone because you help them more than most.

    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;2204518]Like Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny and Muslim Terrorists who want to kill us all?[/QUOTE]

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=cr726;2204520]No the terrorist would leave you alone because you help them more than most.[/QUOTE]

    Funny stuff coming from a Jihadi like yourself.

  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;2204515]I believe the methods are a bit more sophisticated now than they were in 17th century America.[/QUOTE]

    I remember Daniel Levin saying that...

    Well, Im sure that bodes well for Yukio Asano. He will finally be exonerated! He was ahead of his times. And everybody though Chinese Enhanced Water Interrogation was a dumb idea...

    [IMG]http://oneutah.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/waterboarding.jpg[/IMG]

  19. #39
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2204530]I remember Daniel Levin saying that...

    Well, Im sure that bodes well for Yukio Asano. He will finally be exonerated! He was ahead of his times. And everybody though Chinese Enhanced Water Interrogation was a dumb idea...

    [IMG]http://oneutah.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/waterboarding.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

    What, no pics of the Viet Cong torturing US soldiers?

    Not even one of John McCain's mangled arm?

  20. #40
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    I remember a guy who was running for President who questioned McCain's military experience.

    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;2204537]What, no pics of the Viet Cong torturing US soldiers?

    Not even one of John McCain's mangled arm?[/QUOTE]

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