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Thread: Mitt Romney's Evangelical Problem

  1. #41
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    [QUOTE=pauliec;2209179]Take it easy, kid. It's one thing to disagree with Bernie, it's quite another to call Christ the son of a whore.[/QUOTE]

    Oh, no, I meant to say "some people are saying that" (I know it is a stretch but some people are actually saying it)

  2. #42
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    [QUOTE=JCnflies;2209211]Hi JetsPenny. How are you? I am wondering exactly where you came up with this from?

    I don't want to sandbag you and seem vicious, so before you answer, there is something I would like you to consider. The 4 gospels of the Bible were written either directly by disciples of Jesus (Matthew and John) or by the "right hand men" of a disciple (Mark, who was close to Peter) or Luke (a confidant of Paul's.) There have been different estimates of exactly when the earliest known manuscripts of these gospels are from. Some of the earliest estimates are that there exist pieces of the Gospel of Matthew from between 60 and 70 BC - forty or so years after Christ was crucified. Please remember that it is highly unlikely that the very first manuscripts ever written are the ones we now possess.

    Now the point I am making is this: it is reasonable to assume, based on manuscript evidence and the existence of Christian churches and the persecution of Christians that are recorded in the Book of Acts and in the secular writings of historians like Josephus and Tacitus (I think he was the Roman one but might have gotten his name wrong), that the Christian movement grew quickly in and around Jerusalem and the surrounding areas.

    At the time, there were three primary claims that were used to support the deity of Christ.
    1) That He never sinned.
    2) That He fulfilled prophecy.
    3) That He rose from the dead.

    Now here's the rub about a claim like Jesus was born of a prostitute ......... picture the scene. Jesus is crucified and some weird things start happening - from nighttime in the middle of the day to the tearing of the cloth that separated the Holy of Holies from the rest of the Temple to the (as recorded by secular and Biblical accounts) supposed appearances of a risen Christ from a grave that had an impossibly huge stone that was guarded by Roman centurions rolled away. Now if any of these three claims is a lie, why did the Roman or Jewish leaders of the day decalre and prove it? Don;t you think the plitical and religious leaders of the d ay would have loved to expose any lies or mistruths in the scriptures if they could? But they could not because there were contemporaries who knew the truth.

    If Jesus was the child of a prositute, that would immediately squash the claim that He fulfilled prophecy such as His place of birth and the virgin mother. Those against Christ would have jumped for joy at the chance to expose the popular movement for which people were wililng to be martyred as a fraud! But nowhere is their recorded an event in public when those opposed to Christ refuted the claim that Jesus was Mary's son. It seems to me that the easiest explanation to believe is that if someone publicly declared that Christ was the son of a prostitute, they would need to say who that prostitute was. And then Mary would answer back with a boatload of witnesses that can verify that she, in fact, mothered and raised Jesus.

    Please remember that, of all the areas in Jerusalem that resisted Christ's healings and teachings, his hometown resisted as much as any. Jesus announced Himself as the Messiah when He read the scripture of Isaiah that said a Messiah would come during one service at the synagogue (remember He was a rabbi.) While closiing the scroll, Jesus announced that today that prophecy was fulfilled. His neighbors said, "Who does this guy think He is. Is He not the son of Mary and Joseph?" Then they tried to harm Him. Don't you think those who rejected Jesus claim would have loved to say that Jesus was not Mary's son?

    It is very easy today for supposed "scholars" to make these outrageous claims. I say outrageous because, inevitably, they are pretty easy to debunk.

    I hope I explained that in a way that can be understood. The thing about it is this ............... I know who I am and I know who Jesus is. I know that, while I am absolutely nowhere near any kind of perfect or holy or truly good person, I know that I am so much better than I used to be not because of anything I did, but because of what Jesus Christ has done directly in my life. You might think I am nuts, but if anyone asks me how, I will be happy to say how I know it is Him. But I am not going to try to jam my faith down anyone's throat. I figure Jesus got people to think about Him and who He is by patiently and compassionately explaining and answering. But before anyone starts thinking Jesus just wanted to hold hands and sing Kumbayah (sp?), He always confronted sin. And He never, ever forced anyone to believe. A great example of this can be seen in the 4th chapter of John when Jesus talks with the Samaritan woman at the well. Many people witnessed the miracles of Christ and chose not to follow Him. By the way, are you aware that no contemporary ever challenged that Jesus performs the miracles He is credited with?

    One of my favorite verses from the Book of Isaiah is when God, talking to His (forever) chosen people the Jews, says, "Come. Let us reason well together." I like that. I hope we get lots of chances to reason well together.

    It's late and bedtime is here. Good night:).


    Btw, I believe the way to write what you said shows respect is G-d:).[/QUOTE]

    Sorry I can't read all that you wrote right now, but to answer what I saw that you wrote at the beggining is that I mean to write that "somepeople are saying that he is" I don't necessarily believe it, but it was just to emphasis how no one really knows what goes on with the church

  3. #43
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    [QUOTE=JCnflies;2209211]One of my favorite verses from the Book of Isaiah is when God, talking to His (forever) chosen people the Jews, says, [B]"Come. Let us reason well together." [/B][/QUOTE]

    Isn't that also Obama's War on Terror slogan?

  4. #44
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    There should be a separate forum on JI where all the Bible Bashers should be locked in so they can post to each other about the existence of God etc and quote from that completely pointless book the Bible.

    Said Bible Bashing forum would be JI's version of Hell.

  5. #45
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    [QUOTE=Jetspennyfan;2209149]No...Here is where you are wrong, Christ was not the Messiah...he was the [b]SON OF A PROSTITUTE! [/b] The evidence is coming out and it isn't looking great for your savior...The church is/has always been a very mysterious institution.:eek: And just a question about your saying that g-d (which would be the way to spell his name if you had even the slightest amount of respect for him) has "blinded" Kleck, isn't he all powerful, yet merciful, if he wanted to why would he even give Kleck a shot at being misled, how come he didn't preprogram Kleck to worship him.[/QUOTE]

    If you're going to make comments like that, please don't defend me.

    Bernie is sadly blinded by his personal version of G-d. Don't fall into the same trap.

  6. #46
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    [QUOTE=sackdance99;2206126]Here is Mormonism in a nutshell. Confused bozo's who worship a pervert named Joseph Smith. Typical cult, talk a little truth to make it sound good but then when you get to the meat of things you find out how wacked out it really is. Every last one of them is hell-bound.

    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YPyvJacwUI[/url][/QUOTE]

    Yikes. Thoses dudes are always around my house. Two of them talked to me the other day. What do the do buy those helmets, t-shirts and bikes in bulk? Thats creepy. Around here they travel in pairs. Kinda like mountain biking hells angels.

  7. #47
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    If a long standing entrenched religion such as Judaism continues entrenched despite the active questioning of its members about its validity, then that may be evidence for a fairly firm basis in fact there (eg ongoing evidence of historical fact of the Old Testament).

    Jews have boasted high intelligence levels and high academic achievements down through time, so to question their own faith and continue to accept it, continues to give Christians more confidence in their own basis of faith, since Christianity is obviously originally based on Jewish writings.

    On the other hand, it says in Romans that God has blinded the Jews so they couldn't see the truth about Christ, indicating a fairly strong stubbornness to stick to tradition and not put different facts contained within the OT together and come up with Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of those facts.

    [QUOTE]John 12:40
    "He hath blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
    (In context: John 12:39-41)

    Romans 11:7
    What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded,
    (In context: Romans 11:6-8)

    2 Corinthians 3:14
    But their minds were blinded; for until this day the same veil remaineth untaken away in the reading of the old testament, which veil is done away with in Christ.
    (In context: 2 Corinthians 3:13-15)

    2 Corinthians 4:4
    whose unbelieving minds the god of this world hath blinded, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
    (In context: 2 Corinthians 4:3-5)

    1 John 2:11
    But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
    (In context: 1 John 2:10-12)[/QUOTE]

    How can any Jew not understand that plain talk! Read it! The Jews were the chosen people and YET they rejected God. He in turn blinded you! Guess what, you are under a GREATER condemnation now. There is no hope for you unless you put away your traditions and follow Christ. That won't happen because of pride. This is why very few Jews will enter Heaven.

    It's obviously easy for people to keep believing something not completely logical, due to tradition. Do you know how many Jews have said they want to know who Jesus is but don't know how to go about it because of fear their family will disown them. Do you know how many Jews in Brooklyn are doing private bible studies with Jews for Jesus because once they have read the ENTIRE bible they have realized their religion was incomplete.

    You have never see a Christian turn Jew for a reason! I guess my next step question would be - how many Jews have questioned and then turned Christian?

  8. #48
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    [QUOTE=sackdance99;2209327]If a long standing entrenched religion such as Judaism continues entrenched despite the active questioning of its members about its validity, then that may be evidence for a fairly firm basis in fact there (eg ongoing evidence of historical fact of the Old Testament).

    Jews have boasted high intelligence levels and high academic achievements down through time, so to question their own faith and continue to accept it, continues to give Christians more confidence in their own basis of faith, since Christianity is obviously originally based on Jewish writings.

    On the other hand, it says in Romans that God has blinded the Jews so they couldn't see the truth about Christ, indicating a fairly strong stubbornness to stick to tradition and not put different facts contained within the OT together and come up with Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of those facts.



    How can any Jew not understand that plain talk! Read it! The Jews were the chosen people and YET they rejected God. He in turn blinded you! Guess what, you are under a GREATER condemnation now. There is no hope for you unless you put away your traditions and follow Christ. That won't happen because of pride. This is why very few Jews will enter Heaven.

    It's obviously easy for people to keep believing something not completely logical, due to tradition. Do you know how many Jews have said they want to know who Jesus is but don't know how to go about it because of fear their family will disown them. Do you know how many Jews in Brooklyn are doing private bible studies with Jews for Jesus because once they have read the ENTIRE bible they have realized their religion was incomplete.

    You have never see a Christian turn Jew for a reason! I guess my next step question would be - how many Jews have questioned and then turned Christian?[/QUOTE]

    Is there no end to your hatred or hypocrisy?

  9. #49
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    [QUOTE=sackdance99;2209327]If a long standing entrenched religion such as Judaism continues entrenched despite the active questioning of its members about its validity, then that may be evidence for a fairly firm basis in fact there (eg ongoing evidence of historical fact of the Old Testament).

    Jews have boasted high intelligence levels and high academic achievements down through time, so to question their own faith and continue to accept it, continues to give Christians more confidence in their own basis of faith, since Christianity is obviously originally based on Jewish writings.

    On the other hand, it says in Romans that God has blinded the Jews so they couldn't see the truth about Christ, indicating a fairly strong stubbornness to stick to tradition and not put different facts contained within the OT together and come up with Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of those facts.



    How can any Jew not understand that plain talk! Read it! The Jews were the chosen people and YET they rejected God. He in turn blinded you! Guess what, you are under a GREATER condemnation now. There is no hope for you unless you put away your traditions and follow Christ. That won't happen because of pride. This is why very few Jews will enter Heaven.

    It's obviously easy for people to keep believing something not completely logical, due to tradition. Do you know how many Jews have said they want to know who Jesus is but don't know how to go about it because of fear their family will disown them. Do you know how many Jews in Brooklyn are doing private bible studies with Jews for Jesus because once they have read the ENTIRE bible they have realized their religion was incomplete.

    You have never see a Christian turn Jew for a reason! I guess my next step question would be - how many Jews have questioned and then turned Christian?[/QUOTE]

    You are a very odd person. Myself, I don't take the Bible at all seriously; it's a book with empty words and Christianity and its various offshoots are nothing more than cults. You have given no fact to support your notion that we take the Bible seriously; as a book it is no more believeable than the works of L Ron Hubbard.

    By the way, there are a heap of Christians that have turned Jewish. In fact in recent years it became quite a fad which really tells you all about religion you need to know. Didn't Madonna become a Jew of some type for a time?

  10. #50
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    [QUOTE=sackdance99;2209327]If a long standing entrenched religion such as Judaism continues entrenched despite the active questioning of its members about its validity, then that may be evidence for a fairly firm basis in fact there (eg ongoing evidence of historical fact of the Old Testament).

    Jews have boasted high intelligence levels and high academic achievements down through time, so to question their own faith and continue to accept it, continues to give Christians more confidence in their own basis of faith, since Christianity is obviously originally based on Jewish writings.

    On the other hand, it says in Romans that God has blinded the Jews so they couldn't see the truth about Christ, indicating a fairly strong stubbornness to stick to tradition and not put different facts contained within the OT together and come up with Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of those facts.



    How can any Jew not understand that plain talk! Read it! The Jews were the chosen people and YET they rejected God. He in turn blinded you! Guess what, you are under a GREATER condemnation now. There is no hope for you unless you put away your traditions and follow Christ. That won't happen because of pride. This is why very few Jews will enter Heaven.

    It's obviously easy for people to keep believing something not completely logical, due to tradition. Do you know how many Jews have said they want to know who Jesus is but don't know how to go about it because of fear their family will disown them. Do you know how many Jews in Brooklyn are doing private bible studies with Jews for Jesus because once they have read the ENTIRE bible they have realized their religion was incomplete.

    You have never see a Christian turn Jew for a reason! I guess my next step question would be - how many Jews have questioned and then turned Christian?[/QUOTE]

    I know there is some debate on this issue within Christianity, but there are two things that I think are worth remembering:

    1) God NEVER breaks a covenant. He made one with the Jewish people that they be His people. And this relates to ......................
    2) Please don;t forget to mention that (according to prophecy, at least as it is commonly interpreted), God removes the blindness from the Jewish people so that they become the great witnesses for Christ in the end times.

  11. #51
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    [quote=Klecko73isGod;2209141]Spending eternity with Akiva as my neighbor would be awesome. We'd probably laugh the whole about great it was to be away from you.[/quote]

    And at least Namath'd be there :D;)

  12. #52
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    [quote=Jetspennyfan;2209160]Dude, you dont wanna agree with SD, you just made a pact with the devil (how ironic?)[/quote]

    Dude, Nationalist88 is a neo-nazi (the 88 in his name stands for the doubled 8th letter of the alphabet, HH - for Heil Hitler). He and SD99 make for a pretty predictable pair

  13. #53
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    [QUOTE]Now if any of these three claims is a lie, why did the Roman or Jewish leaders of the day decalre and prove it? Don;t you think the plitical and religious leaders of the d ay would have loved to expose any lies or mistruths in the scriptures if they could? But they could not because there were contemporaries who knew the truth.

    If Jesus was the child of a prositute, that would immediately squash the claim that He fulfilled prophecy such as His place of birth and the virgin mother. [/QUOTE]

    JC - that would make sense only if the jews of the time believed that there was some prophecy of the messaiah being born of a virgin.

    Considering that they did not, your point makes no sense.

    (not touching the "son of a prostitute" thing with a ten foot pole, btw - just pointing out the flaw in that particular argument)

  14. #54
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    [QUOTE=JCnflies;2209364]
    2) Please don't forget to mention that (according to prophecy, at least as it is commonly interpreted), God removes the blindness from the Jewish people so that they become the great witnesses for Christ in the end times.[/QUOTE]

    You are 100% right. However, every last one of them who has died before then is in HELL. Realize that fact.

  15. #55
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    [QUOTE=sackdance99;2209436]You are 100% right. However, every last one of them who has died before then is in HELL. Realize that fact.[/QUOTE]

    As long as you're not there, it will be heaven. :yes:

  16. #56
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    [QUOTE=nationalist88;2209156]That about sums it up. And the disinclination to allow Christianity to flourish by liberal organizations has a lot to do with that.[/QUOTE]

    The "disinclination to allow Christianity to flourish?"

    Not wanting one particular religion to be forced upon people is quite different from not allowing a religion to flourish.

    No one is trying to enact laws to prevent Christians from practicing their faith. They are simply trying to make sure that non-Christians get their inalienable right, as bestowed by G-d and this country's founders, to practice their own as well.

  17. #57
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    [QUOTE=The Crusher;2209321]Yikes. Thoses dudes are always around my house. Two of them talked to me the other day. What do the do buy those helmets, t-shirts and bikes in bulk? Thats creepy. Around here they travel in pairs. Kinda like mountain biking hells angels.[/QUOTE]


    As a member of the LDS faith, and someone who served a two year mission, I'll tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about. I am not here to push or defend my religion on anyone. I am just here to let you know how ignorant you are. First of all, to make fun of any person who takes two years out of their life (at the ages of 19-25 nonetheless), to preach what is important to them is very poor taste. I'm not saying you have to agree with what they are saying but obviously its important. How important? They pay to do this. They have to save their own money to do this. They pay for the suits, the bikes, and everything else. And this is all voluntary. How many other Christian religions require this of it's members? I'll tell you not many. My main point in all of this is not to argue doctrine, but I will tell you all of the things being said about Mormons is not true. And if you wanted to have a civilized religious discussion then I'd be more than happy to answer questions. But to make fun of two kids (yes kids) for testifying of what they believe, is sick and disgusting. I'm not saying you have to agree but have some respect.

  18. #58
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    [QUOTE=sackdance99;2209327]If a long standing entrenched religion such as Judaism continues entrenched despite the active questioning of its members about its validity, then that may be evidence for a fairly firm basis in fact there (eg ongoing evidence of historical fact of the Old Testament).

    Jews have boasted high intelligence levels and high academic achievements down through time, so to question their own faith and continue to accept it, continues to give Christians more confidence in their own basis of faith, since Christianity is obviously originally based on Jewish writings.

    On the other hand, it says in Romans that God has blinded the Jews so they couldn't see the truth about Christ, indicating a fairly strong stubbornness to stick to tradition and not put different facts contained within the OT together and come up with Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of those facts.



    How can any Jew not understand that plain talk! Read it! The Jews were the chosen people and YET they rejected God. He in turn blinded you! Guess what, you are under a GREATER condemnation now. There is no hope for you unless you put away your traditions and follow Christ. That won't happen because of pride. This is why very few Jews will enter Heaven.

    It's obviously easy for people to keep believing something not completely logical, due to tradition. Do you know how many Jews have said they want to know who Jesus is but don't know how to go about it because of fear their family will disown them. Do you know how many Jews in Brooklyn are doing private bible studies with Jews for Jesus because once they have read the ENTIRE bible they have realized their religion was incomplete.

    You have never see a Christian turn Jew for a reason! I guess my next step question would be - how many Jews have questioned and then turned Christian?[/QUOTE]

    I know plenty of Christians who have converted to Judaism but why quibble over facts and truth?

    If God blinded Jews to the truth, how can you so easily call that blindness to truth inflicted by God as merely stubbornness? If God blinded the Jews to the truth a Jew would never convert or give himself to Jesus. You can't overcome God blinding you, its god. And we all know it wasn’t sight he was talking about? It was a metaphor about knowledge open to interpretation, what a concept. Why would God do that if God wanted Jews along with every one else to find salvation through Christ?

  19. #59
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;2209471]I know plenty of Christians who have converted to Judaism but why quibble over facts and truth?

    If God blinded Jews to the truth, how can you so easily call that blindness to truth inflicted by God as merely stubbornness? If God blinded the Jews to the truth a Jew would never convert or give himself to Jesus. You can't overcome God blinding you, its god. And we all know it wasn’t sight he was talking about? It was a metaphor about knowledge open to interpretation, what a concept. Why would God do that if God wanted Jews along with every one else to find salvation through Christ?[/QUOTE]

    Bernie's god is only omnipotent when Bernie needs him to be. The rest of the times he is a jackass.

  20. #60
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    [QUOTE=Black Death;2209329]You are a very odd person. Myself, I don't take the Bible at all seriously; it's a book with empty words and Christianity and its various offshoots are nothing more than cults. You have given no fact to support your notion that we take the Bible seriously; as a book it is no more believeable than the works of L Ron Hubbard.

    By the way, there are a heap of Christians that have turned Jewish. In fact in recent years it became quite a fad which really tells you all about religion you need to know. Didn't Madonna become a Jew of some type for a time?[/QUOTE]

    Madonna is also from Detroit but speaks with an English accent.

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