Results 1 to 6 of 6

Thread: GREAT DEBATE: Chris Hitchens Vs Dinesh D'Souza

  1. #1

    GREAT DEBATE: Chris Hitchens Vs Dinesh D'Souza

    The topic is Christianity, but in a larger context it's really theism verses atheism

    If you like a good debate it doesn't get better than this one, whether you like them or hate them there is no denying this debate pits two intellectual heavyweights [COLOR="Red"]{Dinesh D'Souza Vs Chris Hitchens}[/COLOR] on each side of the religious divide and that makes for 90 minutes of [B]Ali Vs Frazier[/B] in a debate format

    Anyhow, [B][COLOR="Red"]REAL PLAYER[/COLOR][/B] is required .. can't watch it if you don't have real player

    [url]rtsp://video.c-span.org/archive/arc_btv/btv102707_dsouza.rm[/url]
    Last edited by Green Jets & Ham; 11-23-2007 at 08:21 PM.

  2. #2
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    1,710
    Its in 10 parts on youtube as well if you don't have real player; not hard to find.

  3. #3
    Does Dinesh have an English accent? If so, I heard the debate on the radio.

    If it is the same debate, there were many points when Hitchens would question the legitimacy of Christ's sacrifice, its morality and other implications.

    If someone wants to attack Christianity, there are several areas which a Christian would need to be very sharp to try to counter the debate. But I don;t understand Hitchens reasoning here; in fact, I thought his argument was self inhibiting. Is he suggesting that the concept of Christ as the lamb of God, the perfect sacrifice, is not good enough to take away sin?

    That's a poor argument. I mean on the one hand, Hitchens is holding the position that the religion isn't even true. Then on the other, he is arguing that though Christ went to the cross, that act is not enough to atone for sin. Which suggests ........

    (1) a lack of confidence in his argument against Christianity. If Christianity is false, the point is moot. Why go there? Or
    (2) that Hitchens has the hubrous to believe that He can determine the sacrifices which God should or should not accept. This in turn suggests that Hitchens believes that God must fit within Hitchens view of ethics...... which is but a very short step from making Hitchens the author of universal morality.

    What was it Satan tempted with in the garden, ".... ye shall be as Gods."

  4. #4
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    23,088
    [QUOTE=JCnflies;2229075]Then on the other, he is arguing that though Christ went to the cross, that act is not enough to atone for sin. [/QUOTE]

    Not much of a sacrifice if the dude didn't actually die all the way. I mean, I would off myself a different way every day if I knew I was invincible and my Dad, God, would just bring me back to life.

    There are certainly people living nowadays that have sacrifice a hell of a lot more than that. If God really wanted to sacrifice something, why didn't he kill Jesus ALL THE WAY?

  5. #5
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2229373]Not much of a sacrifice if the dude didn't actually die all the way. I mean, I would off myself a different way every day if I knew I was invincible and my Dad, God, would just bring me back to life.

    There are certainly people living nowadays that have sacrifice a hell of a lot more than that. If God really wanted to sacrifice something, why didn't he kill Jesus ALL THE WAY?[/QUOTE]

    That is a great question. I think to give an answer that makes sense, you have to look at the entirety of Christ ................... exactly who He was and is and, as Fred Thompson asked Nixon at Watergate, "What did He know and when did He know it?" Yuo need, too, to remember that Jesus was fully man, too.

    I want to give the best answer I can ...................... unfortunately it is time for me to get to teaching ........................ I will try very hard to get back later.

  6. #6
    Plumber, this is one of the great philosophical / theological discussions a Christian can have. On the surface, it seems that willingly being crucified would not be so difficult for God. Like you said, after all, the pain is temporary and Jesus clearly knew what was to gain.

    And if Jesus was only God, I think the matter would be that simple. But Jesus was fully God and fully man. By fully, we mean that He possessed all of the attributes of each. To even partially understand Christianity, you can not lose sight of both Christ’s humanity and Deity. Forgetting either leads to error.

    You can bet Jesus was exposed to all sorts of temptations along His path to the cross. From the time He was little (it sure seems likely) He was the butt end of jokes as the “bastard” son of Mary. It is likely that some knew that the slaughter of the innocents by Herod was an attempt to kill the Messiah, and that there was probably a boatload of friction within the community for that. The Bible does not say much about the youth of Christ, but it is worth noting that He was raised in conditions that gave ample opportunity for sin ……………. from reacting to town innuendo to being raised in Nazareth …………… an area “that no good thing comes from.”

    But when did Jesus know as God? Did He realize His mission as an 8 year old? A 12 year old. or 13? At His barmitzvah? Did it take until He started His ministry? I don’t think any of us know for sure. But He was subject to a human body and all of its sufferings.

    One of the toughest parts, probably the toughest part, was for Jesus to never let His human side reign over His heavenly. I can tell you that as soon as I see a scantily clad lady on a magazine cover, my thoughts lose any sense of purity. My gut reaction, when ridiculed, is to fire back. I’m sure He heard more than a few jokes at the expense of His mom. If I or a loved one suffered, my instinct is to make the cause suffer too – and more. If Jesus knew early on that He was to go to the cross as the sacrifice for mankind, He must have been under enormous pressure to remain the spotless lamb.

    At some point, it is clear, that Jesus knew what had to be done. Do you suppose His human side was tempted to say “Enough. These people are insane. I did nothing wrong, harmed no one and loved fully. Yet the people want Barrabas – a murderer.” At every stop the evening of His trial, He was asked to take the easy way out and avoid the cross. Consider Gethsemane – he sweated blood. Do you think His human side did not want to put Mary, Joseph and His other loved ones through the site of His passion and physical abuse?

    The point is that no man could ever do what Jesus did – only God could be both spotless and have a Spirit strong enough to overcome the flesh at such a point and under such pressure. But to make it real, it had to be done to someone who was fully man.

    CS Lewis puts it brilliantly when he argues that when man first sinned, he took up the side of the enemy – he became an enemy combatant if you will. He decided he belonged to himself and not to God. Imperfect man was not simply a creature who needed improvement: he was a rebel who needed to lay down his arms.

    To return to God, a rebel must turn from rebellion and repent (literal meaning is to turn 180 degrees away). But the catch is that only a bad person needs to repent and only a good person can repent perfectly. The worse you are as a person, the more you need to repent and the less you can do it. The only person who can do it is a perfect person – and he doesn’t need it.

    Jesus became the perfect person in the body of an imperfect man so a full repentance could occur. I can tell you that, personally, it is very uncomfortable when God decides He wants me to do something I am not comfortable with and I often resist His will. And I never had to sweat it out at all like Christ did at Gethsemane, so I can only conclude it was agonizing.

    Now the knowledge that Christ showed that He would rise from the dead is exactly our hope and our faith. So we (try) to live our lives in submission to Him so that we might one day rise as He did.

    I’m sorry this is somewhat disjointed ……………… I had to put it together one piece at a time and won’t have much time later today …………

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us