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Thread: Citing Statistics, Giuliani Misses Time and Again

  1. #1
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    Citing Statistics, Giuliani Misses Time and Again

    [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/30/us/politics/30truth.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin"]http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/30/us/politics/30truth.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin[/URL]

    In almost every appearance as he campaigns for the Republican presidential nomination, Rudolph W. Giuliani cites a fusillade of statistics and facts to make his arguments about his successes in running New York City and the merits of his views.

    Discussing his crime-fighting success as mayor, Mr. Giuliani told a television interviewer that New York was “the only city in America that has reduced crime every single year since 1994.” In New Hampshire this week, he told a public forum that when he became mayor in 1994, New York “had been averaging like 1,800, 1,900 murders for almost 30 years.” When a recent Republican debate turned to the question of fiscal responsibility, he boasted that “under me, spending went down by 7 percent.”

    All of these statements are incomplete, exaggerated or just plain wrong.

    Another major American city claims to have reduced crime every year since 1994: Chicago. New York averaged 1,514 murders a year during the three decades before Mr. Giuliani took office; it did not record more than 1,800 homicides until 1980. And Mr. Giuliani’s own memoir states that spending grew an average of 3.7 percent for most of his tenure; an aide said Mr. Giuliani had meant to say that he had proposed a 7 percent reduction in per capita spending during his time as mayor.

    Facts and figures are often the striking centerpieces of Mr. Giuliani’s arguments. He has always had a penchant for statistics — his anticrime strategy as mayor was built around a system known as Compstat that closely tracked crimes to focus law enforcement efforts. On the campaign trail he often wields data, without notes, with prosecutorial zeal to hammer home his points.

    But in recent days, both Mr. Giuliani’s Republican rival Mitt Romney and Democrats have accused him of a pattern of misleading figures and have begun to use the issue to try to undercut his credibility.

    An examination of many of his statements by The New York Times, other news organizations and independent groups have turned up a variety of misstatements, virtually all of which cast Mr. Giuliani or his arguments in a better light. “He’s given us a lot of work up until now,” said Brooks Jackson, the director of Annenberg Political Fact Check, which is part of Factcheck.org, a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania that has corrected statements by candidates in both parties.

    Aides to Mr. Giuliani dismiss questions about his use of statistics as nitpicking, arguing that no one can dispute the big points he makes by using the statistics: that crime dropped significantly during his tenure, say, or that he worked to restrain spending in New York.

    “The mayor likes detail, and uses it frequently on the campaign trail in ways the other candidates don’t,” said Maria Comella, a spokeswoman for Mr. Giuliani. “And at the end of the day, he is making points that are true.”

    To be sure, many candidates if not most cite statistics in a questionable way. Last month, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, Democrat of New York, said that financing for the National Institutes of Health had decreased under President Bush; it has increased. Senator Barack Obama, Democrat of Illinois, said the national debt had doubled under President Bush; it has not.

    But with Mr. Giuliani running so strongly on his record, statistics have taken on a central role in his campaign.

    In recent days, Mr. Giuliani seems to be taking greater care to be precise.

    At the Republican debate on Wednesday night, he was careful when referring to crime statistics in Massachusetts during Mr. Romney’s term as governor, which had been the subject of a debate over the weekend. And at a “Politics and Eggs” breakfast on Monday in Bedford, N.H., he took greater care to describe his record on cutting taxes.

    Last weekend, speaking about his belief in supply-side economics, Mr. Giuliani said, “I lowered, argued for lowering, and got the hotel occupancy tax lowered by 33 percent. And I was collecting $200 million more from the lower tax than the city had been collecting from before I was mayor from the higher tax.”

    In fact, the increase in revenues from the hotel occupancy tax was just over a quarter of what Mr. Giuliani asserted — the city’s hotel tax revenues grew by roughly $58 million during his term, according to the city’s Independent Budget Office — and a booming economy, as well as the reduction in crime Mr. Giuliani helped produce, probably played a part.

    Factcheck.org has reported that the Giuliani campaign exaggerated when it boasted on its Web site that “Mayor Giuliani increased the police force from 28,000 to 40,000,” noting that most of that increase came from his merger of the Transit and Housing Police Departments with the New York Police Department, a transfer of more than 7,000 existing officers to the department.

    The campaign argues that giving housing and transit police officers jurisdiction beyond the city’s public housing and subways gave the city more flexibility to fight crime. It said that it usually notes the effects of the merger when describing the size of the police force, and said it would change a post on its Web site to mention the merger when citing the increase.

    And the group also found that Mr. Giuliani erred at a Republican debate when, while calling for tort reform, he said that 2.2 percent of the nation’s gross domestic product “is spent on all these frivolous lawsuits.” That statistic, the group reported, came from a study that pegged the cost of all civil claims at 2.2 percent of the G.D.P., without judging whether the cases had merit or not.

    Even some people who support Mr. Giuliani’s proposals say he risks undercutting his own arguments when he relies on imprecise or questionable statistics.

    In a recent radio advertisement by the campaign about his health care proposal, Mr. Giuliani repeated another false statement that he had been using on the campaign trail. In the advertisement Mr. Giuliani, who has had prostate cancer, asserted that his chances of surviving prostate cancer in the United States were 82 percent, while his chance of surviving in England would have been only 44 percent. His point was that the American health care system is far superior to England’s government-run system, which he refers to as “socialized medicine.”

    The figure came from an article written by one of Mr. Giuliani’s health care advisers, but was soon discredited: the source of the research that was used to derive the statistic said that its data had been misused. The Office for National Statistics in Britain said that the true five-year survival rate was 74.4 percent — still lower than in the United States, but by a much smaller margin. Mr. Giuliani stood by the statistic, however, and kept using the advertisement, though it has since gone off the air.

    Ramesh Ponnuru, a senior editor at National Review magazine, said Mr. Giuliani’s plan “may be the best of the Republican health care plans.”

    “The trouble is that the exact statistic he used was misleading,” Mr. Ponnuru said in a recent interview, elaborating on a blog post he wrote. “It became an argument about the statistics, and he dug in and defended it when he was wrong.”

    Another radio advertisement that Mr. Giuliani ran over the summer stated that as mayor he “turned a $2.3 billion deficit into a multibillion-dollar surplus.”

    That was also misleading. According to independent fiscal monitors, Mr. Giuliani did have to close a $2.3 billion deficit in his first budget, and did accumulate a multibillion-dollar surplus during his tenure. But by Mr. Giuliani’s last full fiscal year in office, the city was spending more than it was taking in in revenues, and Mr. Giuliani ended up spending almost all of the surplus to balance his final budget.

    Last weekend, questions about Mr. Giuliani’s use of facts moved front and center in the campaign. Mr. Giuliani charged that “violent crime and murder went up” in Massachusetts while Mr. Romney was governor. The number of reported killings did go up in those years, but the state’s overall rate of violent crime went down, according to statistics compiled by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

    Mr. Romney accused Mr. Giuliani of having “a real problem with facts,” and aides circulated a statement calling Mr. Giuliani’s crime statistics “about as accurate as his prostate cancer survival numbers for England.”

    “He has now done this time and again, making up facts that just happen to be wrong, and facts are stubborn things,” Mr. Romney said.

    Frank Luntz, a Republican strategist who once worked for Mr. Giuliani, said he doubted that the issue would hurt him politically.

    “When he talks about New York, people see it,” Mr. Luntz said of Mr. Giuliani, “and they feel it, and if a number isn’t quite right, or is off by a small amount, nobody will care, because it rings true to them.”

  2. #2
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    Oh, Buster. Just ask a New Yorker. The city that Guiliani inherited and then left behind was vastly different, much more lawful and business boomed. Everyone knows this.

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    [QUOTE=sackdance;2237052]Oh, Buster. Just ask a New Yorker. The city that Guiliani inherited and then left behind was vastly different, much more lawful and business boomed. Everyone knows this.[/QUOTE]

    Using the same criteria what is your opinion of Bill Clinton?

  4. #4
    flushingjet
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    [quote=Buster;2237213]Using the same criteria what is your opinion of Bill Clinton?[/quote]


    within months of clinton taking office, we had a terrorist attack on our own soil, WTC1, which led to many more brazen attacks over the years worldwide culminating in WTC2, all unresponded to adequately...
    clinton didnt even come to ny after it happened

    so no, he didnt make the US or NYC safer,
    and dinkins (the absolute worst NYC mayor of my lifetime) was mayor
    no help there
    gutting the military over his time in office didnt help either

    clintons 1st 1/2 of his 1st term was marked by raising federal income taxes to fund spending and hillary trying to nationalize health care. thats about it

    social problems became a focus , ie out of control crime and welfare in many cities and unemployment at @ 6-7%. not a depression but not great.

    this do nothing attitude led to the 1st GOP congress in 40 years, after the GOP swept in

    constructive things started getting done-welfare reform, economy picked up,
    spending cuts all fueled by republican ideology

    without the gop congress and greenspan
    (not a "rat-winger" although youd never know it given
    some of the things hes said and who he ended up marrying)
    and a very good 1-2 years of growth (1998-99)
    clinton is just jimmah-lite

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    It's the NY Times.:zzz:

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    [QUOTE=Buster;2237213]Using the same criteria what is your opinion of Bill Clinton?[/QUOTE]
    He was an astute politician and a good custodian for business, which is very important. No shortage of things to dislike about him, though. I won't get into it now, except to say I'm not terribly impressed by a President of the United States taking fat interns into the Oval Office for a little "hide the cigar".

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    The persons responsible minus 1 were all arrested and put in jail for the first WTC bombing.

    You notice Clinton didn't veto every bill the GOP brought to him either. Jimmah lite? Clinton is a smarter GW Bush.


    [QUOTE=flushingjet;2237293]within months of clinton taking office, we had a terrorist attack on our own soil, WTC1, which led to many more brazen attacks over the years worldwide culminating in WTC2, all unresponded to adequately...
    clinton didnt even come to ny after it happened

    so no, he didnt make the US or NYC safer,
    and dinkins (the absolute worst NYC mayor of my lifetime) was mayor
    no help there
    gutting the military over his time in office didnt help either

    clintons 1st 1/2 of his 1st term was marked by raising federal income taxes to fund spending and hillary trying to nationalize health care. thats about it

    social problems became a focus , ie out of control crime and welfare in many cities and unemployment at @ 6-7%. not a depression but not great.

    this do nothing attitude led to the 1st GOP congress in 40 years, after the GOP swept in

    constructive things started getting done-welfare reform, economy picked up,
    spending cuts all fueled by republican ideology

    without the gop congress and greenspan
    (not a "rat-winger" although youd never know it given
    some of the things hes said and who he ended up marrying)
    and a very good 1-2 years of growth (1998-99)
    clinton is just jimmah-lite[/QUOTE]

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    [QUOTE=sackdance;2237308]He was an astute politician and a good custodian for business, which is very important. No shortage of things to dislike about him, though. I won't get into it now, except to say I'm not terribly impressed by a President of the United States taking fat interns into the Oval Office for a little "hide the cigar".[/QUOTE]


    So the Economy and Lawfulness are only to be used to measure a mayor and not the President?

    Since you started down the 'low road'
    What do you think of men who like to cross dress?

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    [QUOTE=Buster;2237385]So the Economy and Lawfulness are only to be used to measure a mayor and not the President?

    Since you started down the 'low road'
    What do you think of men who like to cross dress?[/QUOTE]
    I think it was a public gag on stage, not a life-style. See if you can unclench a little bit, Buster. It might do you some good.

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    [QUOTE=sackdance;2237396]I think it was a public gag on stage, not a life-style. See if you can unclench a little bit, Buster. It might do you some good.[/QUOTE]

    A gag is done once or maybe even twice...

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    [QUOTE=Buster;2237454]A gag is done once or maybe even twice...[/QUOTE]

    So...you are going to insist that Rudy Guiliani is suspect as a presidential candidate because you suspect he is a drag queen. Yet...you don't [I]know[/I] he's a drag queen. You base the allegations on the fact that he dressed up as a woman for some annual skit. Maybe you can go help OJ find the killers.

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    [QUOTE=sackdance;2237473]So...you are going to insist that Rudy Guiliani is suspect as a presidential candidate because you suspect he is a drag queen. Yet...you don't [I]know[/I] he's a drag queen. You base the allegations on the fact that he dressed up as a woman for some annual skit. Maybe you can go help OJ find the killers.[/QUOTE]

    No I never said that. I just asked your opinion of men who really like to dress up as women.

    I find it funny that you hold Bill Clinton to a standard that you refuse to hold Rudy to.

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    [QUOTE=Buster;2237511]No I never said that. I just asked your opinion of men who really like to dress up as women.

    I find it funny that you hold Bill Clinton to a standard that you refuse to hold Rudy to.[/QUOTE]
    What on earth are you driving at?

    a) Bill Clinton was caught cheating in the White House.

    b) Rudy Guiliani dressed up like a woman onstage for a skit for the press.

    Regardless of how anyone feels the statements above, a + b have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

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    [QUOTE=sackdance;2237642]What on earth are you driving at?

    a) Bill Clinton was caught cheating in the White House.

    b) Rudy Guiliani dressed up like a woman onstage for a skit for the press.

    Regardless of how anyone feels the statements above, a + b have absolutely nothing to do with each other.[/QUOTE]

    Rudy has been caught cheating on trips the City paid for. Yeah, that's nowhere near as bad as what Bill did.

    And Rudy dressed up as a woman more than once. He clearly enjoyed doing so. I have a problem with that even if you don't.

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    [QUOTE=sackdance;2237642]What on earth are you driving at?

    a) Bill Clinton was caught cheating in the White House.

    b) Rudy Guiliani dressed up like a woman onstage for a skit for the press.

    Regardless of how anyone feels the statements above, a + b have absolutely nothing to do with each other.[/QUOTE]

    I could care less about Rudy's cross dressing. But he, too, was caught cheating in his public office.

    He even spent $34k of taxpayer dollars on security while he scampered off the Hamptons to boff his mistress, and then tried to conceal the expenses, as detailed here:

    [url]http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=878D4480-3048-5C12-005317F667D990C6[/url]

    The Nathan relationship followed, of course, his earlier affair with Christine Lategano, who worked under him in the Mayor's Office.

    Now I don't think that's a reason to not vote for him, if one thinks he's qualified otherwise. But he is every bit the womanizer Bill Clinton is.

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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2237697]I could care less about Rudy's cross dressing. But he, too, was caught cheating in his public office.

    He even spent $34k of taxpayer dollars on security while he scampered off the Hamptons to boff his mistress, and then tried to conceal the expenses, as detailed here:

    [url]http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=878D4480-3048-5C12-005317F667D990C6[/url]

    The Nathan relationship followed, of course, his earlier affair with Christine Lategano, who worked under him in the Mayor's Office.

    Now I don't think that's a reason to not vote for him, if one thinks he's qualified otherwise. But he is every bit the womanizer Bill Clinton is.[/QUOTE]

    Ftr, Clinton is still on his first marriage. Unlike Rudy.

    What I find amusing is the GOP has plenty of time to toss this loser over the side and go with someone else. Why willingly choose to go into the election with a guy who has so much obvious baggage? He brings to the table something no other Republican is capable of? That would be a pretty damaging admission.

    Sticking with Rudy doesn't sound like the smart move to me.

  17. #17
    flushingjet
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    [quote=cr726;2237309]The persons responsible minus 1 were all arrested and put in jail for the first WTC bombing.

    You notice Clinton didn't veto every bill the GOP brought to him either. Jimmah lite? Clinton is a smarter GW Bush.[/quote]

    the reason terror flourished is that clinton treated it like petit
    larceny and not a capital crime. weve all heard his wondering aloud
    about the legality of locking up OBL when he had the chance.

    locking up a few from WTC1 or embassy attacks didnt stop terror again, and giving 3 hots and a cot certainly is not adequate punishment,
    certainly not for Mahmdouh Mahmud Salim , who beat and maimed
    Louis Pepe in prison

    [URL]http://www.senate.gov/~schumer/SchumerWebsite/schumer_around_ny/record.cfm?id=265136[/URL]&

    an iraqi who was buds with obl...no such thing, right?

    clinton was a smart politician, triangulator supreme
    he won some too, nafta vs his own partys objections,
    ruth buzzi ginsberg with nary a peep from the gop

    clinton wasnt the worst president, that was carter,
    but he was nowhere near the pinnacle either
    mediocrity thy name is bubba...

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    [QUOTE=flushingjet;2238073]the reason terror flourished is that clinton treated it like petit
    larceny and not a capital crime. weve all heard his wondering aloud
    about the legality of locking up OBL when he had the chance.

    locking up a few from WTC1 or embassy attacks didnt stop terror again, and giving 3 hots and a cot certainly is not adequate punishment,
    certainly not for Mahmdouh Mahmud Salim , who beat and maimed
    Louis Pepe in prison

    [URL]http://www.senate.gov/~schumer/SchumerWebsite/schumer_around_ny/record.cfm?id=265136[/URL]&

    an iraqi who was buds with obl...no such thing, right?

    clinton was a smart politician, triangulator supreme
    he won some too, nafta vs his own partys objections,
    ruth buzzi ginsberg with nary a peep from the gop

    clinton wasnt the worst president, that was carter,
    but he was nowhere near the pinnacle either
    mediocrity thy name is bubba...[/QUOTE]

    Terrorism really took off when Reagan high tailed it out of Lebanon after the Marine barracks were blown up.

  19. #19
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    [QUOTE=Big Blocker;2238197]Terrorism really took off when Reagan high tailed it out of Lebanon after the Marine barracks were blown up.[/QUOTE]

    sure.....it wasn't really relevant when jimmah carter did nothing but capitulate to an old man in iran holding Americans hostage for 444 days....

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY;2238221]sure.....it wasn't really relevant when jimmah carter did nothing but capitulate to an old man in iran holding Americans hostage for 444 days....[/QUOTE]

    How about when those guys dressed as native americans and threw all of the tea into the harbor?

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