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Thread: Waterboarding probably saved lives, Abu Zubaida cracked in 35 secs.

  1. #1
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    Waterboarding probably saved lives, Abu Zubaida cracked in 35 secs.

    Very interesting. I know people have very different opinions on this stuff and I won't get into the politics of it except to say, if Zubaida cracked and gave up info. after 35 seconds that saved American lives, I have a hard time saying that we were wrong to make him uncomfortable and fearful for less than 1 minute of his life. The funny part is hearing that this holier-than-thou fighter for Islam miraculously had a visit from Mohammad in his jail cell where Mohammad told him to cooperate with the U.S. This was after his waterboarding experience.

    [url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22192375/[/url]
    Last edited by jetstream23; 12-11-2007 at 05:17 AM.

  2. #2
    This is funny accordinng to the CIA N. Pelosi knew about Water Boarding 2 years ago and said nothing now the Democrats are running for office and its a big deal!

  3. #3
    [QUOTE=MnJetFan;2258086]This is funny accordinng to the CIA N. Pelosi knew about Water Boarding 2 years ago and said nothing now the Democrats are running for office and its a big deal![/QUOTE]

    Actually, what Pelosi and Harmon knew about two years ago was the destroyed evidence of CIA torture sessions. For some reason (possibly confidentiality, possibly because they are chickensh!t, possibly both) they said nothing about it.

    Waterboarding and torture has been a major public debate for the entire second Bush term, and to paint it as a Democratic-only issue is either deliberately dishonest or proof you haven't read a newspaper in that entire time. Did you see the Republican YouTube debate? McCain and Romney brawled on this issue.

    The fact is, as McCain eloquently stated, torture is plainly illegal under both U.S. and international law. It works only erratically, as there are --according to experts-- many, many cases where torture victims merely say what they think their torturers want to hear, as well as other cases where innocents who know nothing get tortured by mistake.

    As McCain pointed out at the GOP debate, waterboarding was the favorite torture technique of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. I am not surprised there are cases where it works quickly.

    We survived the Cold War and two world wars without resorting to torture, by using the legal interrogation techniques in the Army field manual. There is absolutely no reason we need to resort to it now.

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    [QUOTE=jetstream23;2257899]Very interesting. I know people have very different opinions on this stuff and I won't get into the politics of it except to say, if Zubaida cracked and gave up info. after 35 seconds that saved American lives, I have a hard time saying that we were wrong to make him uncomfortable and fearful for less than 1 minute of his life. The funny part is hearing that this holier-than-thou fighter for Islam miraculously had a visit from Mohammad in his jail cell where Mohammad told him to cooperate with the U.S. This was after his waterboarding experience.

    [url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22192375/[/url][/QUOTE]

    I posted a report by Brian Ross of ABC did two years ago about this same exact thing in which CIA agents said he started whimpering like a child 30 seconds into the waterboarding and gave up everything.....

    Ross is the same guy who broke the Mark Foley story...of course at the time the liberal media never gave an ounce of coverage to Ross' report...

  5. #5
    you guys always go after my posts when i don't include the whole story...

    [quote]
    Ex-CIA officer says technique worked, [B]but he now considers it torture[/B]
    [/quote]

  6. #6
    Wow, you are the man CBTNY, you are always one step ahead of everyone. I guess that is why you posted this correct?

    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY;2258125]I posted a report by Brian Ross of ABC did two years ago about this same exact thing in which CIA agents said he started whimpering like a child 30 seconds into the waterboarding and gave up everything.....

    Ross is the same guy who broke the Mark Foley story...of course at the time the liberal media never gave an ounce of coverage to Ross' report...[/QUOTE]

  7. #7
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    [QUOTE=jetstream23;2257899]Very interesting. I know people have very different opinions on this stuff and I won't get into the politics of it except to say, if Zubaida cracked and gave up info. after 35 seconds that saved American lives, I have a hard time saying that we were wrong to make him uncomfortable and fearful for less than 1 minute of his life. The funny part is hearing that this holier-than-thou fighter for Islam miraculously had a visit from Mohammad in his jail cell where Mohammad told him to cooperate with the U.S. This was after his waterboarding experience.

    [url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22192375/[/url][/QUOTE]

    btw- it also made Khalid Sheik Mohammed crack in about 30 seconds....

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    We should start a thread like this every time waterboarding DOESN'T work or gives us false information.

    They would far outnumber these threads.

  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=parafly;2258154]We should start a thread like this every time waterboarding DOESN'T work or gives us false information.

    They would far outnumber these threads.[/QUOTE]

    if you've got the evidence go ahead.....

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    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY;2258155]if you've got the evidence go ahead.....[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, because military and government interrogation failures are reported all the time. :rolleyes:

  11. #11
    KSM also admitted to being the 5th Beatle.

    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY;2258152]btw- it also made Khalid Sheik Mohammed crack in about 30 seconds....[/QUOTE]

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=parafly;2258162]Yeah, because military and government interrogation failures are reported all the time. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    another in a long line of instances where you make accusations but can't back them up....

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2258109]Actually, what Pelosi and Harmon knew about two years ago was the destroyed evidence of CIA torture sessions. For some reason (possibly confidentiality, possibly because they are chickensh!t, possibly both) they said nothing about it.

    Waterboarding and torture has been a major public debate for the entire second Bush term, and to paint it as a Democratic-only issue is either deliberately dishonest or proof you haven't read a newspaper in that entire time. Did you see the Republican YouTube debate? McCain and Romney brawled on this issue.

    The fact is, as McCain eloquently stated, torture is plainly illegal under both U.S. and international law. It works only erratically, as there are --according to experts-- many, many cases where torture victims merely say what they think their torturers want to hear, as well as other cases where innocents who know nothing get tortured by mistake.

    As McCain pointed out at the GOP debate, waterboarding was the favorite torture technique of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. I am not surprised there are cases where it works quickly.

    We survived the Cold War and two world wars without resorting to torture, by using the legal interrogation techniques in the Army field manual. There is [B]absolutely no reason[/B] we need to resort to it now.[/QUOTE]

    That's the only part I disagree with. We shouldn't need to use these methods. You would think they could extract information without having to resort to some of these techniques but obviously, after several days of using other interrogation methods, they did decide to use waterboarding. Thirty-five seconds later they had the names of AQ operatives in England as well as training locations and techniques.

    Again, it shouldn't need to be used but obviously, in this case, a guy who said he knew nothing while under duress from other techniques magically recalled lots of valuable information after he was waterboarded.

  14. #14
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    Am I the only one who laughs at the irony that the advertisement at the top of this thread was [B]SINGLEMUSLIM.COM[/B]?

  15. #15
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    [QUOTE=parafly;2258162]Yeah, because military and government interrogation failures are reported all the time. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    They sure are. I remember about 191 straight days of Dan Rather telling us that intelligence had failed and there were no WMDs. They even report it before it has failed.
    Last edited by jetstream23; 12-11-2007 at 11:29 AM.

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=jetstream23;2258176]They sure are. I remember about 191 straight days of Dan Rather telling us that intelligence had failed and there were no WMDs. They even report it before it has failed.[/QUOTE]

    you mean like the surge???

  17. #17
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    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY;2258180]you mean like the surge???[/QUOTE]

    Don't tell the media that the surge is actually working because they might actually have to report it. Iraq has become so quiet lately that they don't even know what to do with themselves in the newsroom.

    I can just hear the producers at CNN now sitting around a conference room table, "For the love of god, could someone please find a hurricane that we can send Anderson Cooper to?"

  18. #18
    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2258109]
    We survived the Cold War and two world wars without resorting to torture, by using the legal interrogation techniques in the Army field manual. There is absolutely no reason we need to resort to it now.[/QUOTE]

    You don't actually believe this, do you? I'm not in favor of torture as a legal mechanism in the army field manual, however the cold war and two world wars were fought with "wet works" torture and other techniques that were outside the bounds of the legal, civilized world we live in.

    [QUOTE]Jessep: You want answers?
    Kaffee (Tom Cruise): I think I'm entitled to them.
    Jessep: You want answers?
    Kaffee: I want the truth!
    Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.
    We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
    Kaffee: Did you order the code red?
    Jessep: (quietly) I did the job you sent me to do.
    Kaffee: Did you order the code red?
    Jessep: You're goddamn right I did!![/QUOTE]

  19. #19
    [QUOTE=jetstream23;2258172]That's the only part I disagree with. We shouldn't need to use these methods. You would think they could extract information without having to resort to some of these techniques but obviously, after several days of using other interrogation methods, they did decide to use waterboarding. Thirty-five seconds later they had the names of AQ operatives in England as well as training locations and techniques.

    Again, it shouldn't need to be used but obviously, in this case, a guy who said he knew nothing while under duress from other techniques magically recalled lots of valuable information after he was waterboarded.[/QUOTE]

    For the record, I am skeptical that he was *only* waterboarded. As the article states, the tapes of his interrogation were among those destroyed, presumably to eliminate evidence of war crimes.

    I have a hard time believing the tapes were only 35 seconds long.

    Also, there is a tremendous amount of dispute over what, exactly, Zubaydah gave up. Bush gave a speech about him a few years ago in which he claimed they extracted KSM's nickname from him, and it was subsequently discovered that the CIA had known his nickname within months of 9/11, well before Zubaydah was interrogated. I am highly skeptical of these reports portraying waterboarding as some sort of magic truth elixir.

  20. #20
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    Waterboarding was used in World War II, the Vietnam War, the Algerian War and the Spanish Inquisition. It is not uncommon. And while it doesn't do any permanent damage and seems to simply instill an extreme amount of fear and mental duress, I do think it's somewhat inhumane and depending on a person's definition, could be considered torture. However, that is separate from whether it should be used or not. It may have lasting psychological affects on those who are subjected to it, but so does what my father saw in downtown Manhattan on 9/11. If making someone uncomfortable and fearful for a brief amount of time yields information that prevents the deaths of hundreds or thousands of people, then maybe I'm crazy, but I don't have a major problem with it. We're not burning someone, cutting someone, etc., we're instilling fear and uncertainty for 30 seconds or a minute. It seems that this technique either works quickly or it simply won't work. If it's not working after a minute you move off to another technique or deduce that the source has no viable information. In either case, its a non-permanent form of discomfort and fear that is instilled for a short amount of time and either works or doesn't. I might consider arguing against the death penalty before I worried about whether I'm making a guy who has committed himself to killing innocent Americans a little afraid.

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