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Thread: How do you feel about this form of affirmative action?

  1. #1
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    How do you feel about this form of affirmative action?

    Okay, so here at the University of Michigan, we have this special admission program called the "Bridge Program."

    Here's how it works: [I]underrepresented minority students[/I] who come from districts across Michigan that have been designated as [I]failing districts[/I] can get into the University even if they do not meet normal admissions standards. These individuals are accepted based on faith of future potential. The admission, however, is entirely conditional - you have to show up for the summer term before the fall of your freshman year. If you get better than a B average during these classes (which are not specific to the Bridge Program), then you're enrolled as a full-time student. The enrollments are made in addition to the normal class size - the idea being that no Bridge student takes the place of any other student.

    Let's not turn this into a debate of practice (there are some functional problems with the Bridge Program that I won't go into here), but what do you guys think of this idea IN PRINCIPLE?

    While I personally feel that this program works as a good compromise, some people love it and some people still hate it. What are your opinions? Is this a good program, a bad program, an ineffective program? Why? Keep in mind, I'm looking for a manifest of opinions, not for a mudslinging debate.

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    Sombody needs to audit major universities to understand why the cost of education has gone up so much.

    Period.

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    [QUOTE=Piper;2418582]Sombody needs to audit major universities to understand why the cost of education has gone up so much.

    Period.[/QUOTE]

    Not sure what you mean. Are you saying there's a correlation between the presence of the program and an increased cost to everyone?

    I think that might be a point I hadn't thought of.

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    [QUOTE=The Paranoid Jet;2418586]Not sure what you mean. Are you saying there's a correlation between the presence of the program and an increased cost to everyone?

    I think that might be a point I hadn't thought of.[/QUOTE]

    Of course. In addition to preferential admission policies, there are aid programs tied to these qualification standards.

    One man's aid is another man's higher tuition.

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    [QUOTE=Piper;2418599]Of course. In addition to preferential admission policies, there are aid programs tied to these qualification standards.

    One man's aid is another man's higher tuition.[/QUOTE]

    Would you say that all financial aid is bad? Or would you say that there's an ideal amount and programs like this push it way past that amount? I will say that I, for example, could not attend college without aid, but my performance has proven that I belong.

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    [QUOTE=The Paranoid Jet;2418606]Would you say that all financial aid is bad? Or would you say that there's an ideal amount and programs like this push it way past that amount? I will say that I, for example, could not attend college without aid, but my performance has proven that I belong.[/QUOTE]

    The latter. Things like this corrupt a potentially decent aid program.

    I got a little aid (very little) when I went to school. Because my mother was a widow and made very little money. My response to that was to work my azz off while attending school locally because I couldn't afford to go away. I literally worked full time (in a deli) while carrying a full class load.

    These days people seem to think they have a right not only to go to school, but to go to whatever school they want, and not have to work while they go.

    And on top of it, nobody asks what the actual costs are that have driven education costs up so much.

    Sorry for the rant.

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    [quote=Piper;2418599]Of course. In addition to preferential admission policies, there are aid programs tied to these qualification standards.

    One man's aid is another man's higher tuition.[/quote]

    Absolutely. Then again, nobody is forcing anyone to go to a particular school, so if you'd prefer to be at a less prestigious university for lower tuition, people are free to do so.

    Fact is, sounds like a great program - a good way to identify underpriviliged students who can make the grade in college even if they didn't, for whatever reason, in HS.

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    Im not for any form of affrimative action. Everyone has the same opportunity to earn there own way. People will eventually see this as a way to crap their way through High school yet still get the same chance as a kid who worked hard to be accepted. How many kids that actully work hard will have to be turned away ?

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    [QUOTE=Piper;2418582]Sombody needs to audit major universities to understand why the cost of education has gone up so much.

    Period.[/QUOTE]

    Agreed. The cost of education in America has gone up far faster than even the cost of oil has in recent years. It can and does cost upwards of 100,000 now to get even a simple 4 year degree at an even semi-decent University.

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    As hard as I worked in High School to go to Wesleyan,

    (multiple after school clubs that I hated, just for the resume; volunteer work, tutoring, church work, sports, multiple KAPLAN classes to get a 1410 on my SAT (out of 1600), 780 on my Biology SAT II (out of 800), great scores on other tests after studying my ass off, graduating in the top 5 in my class,)

    I am typically for affirmative action in the larger sense, but I really really LOVE the idea of this bridge program.

    The truth is, not everyone has the same chance to succeed. My parents invested everything in my education, including their own time and tutoring and help, and were great. They were the reason I could go to a good school...yeah, I worked my ass off, but they were the reason I became who I was and they instilled a work ethic in me.

    Minorities in the inner city who are poor and who typically do poorly in High School usually DO NOT have one or more of the following:
    1) Parents who make sure their kids do well in school and do all their homework
    2) Parents who encourage their kids to do educational things or things to enrich their brain/learning power
    3) A father figure who teaches them the value of a work ethic and good grades
    4) Parents, plural, with a steady income to provide any educational help they might need

    Most of my friends are white and anywhere from lower middle class to middle middle class. I don't know any rich kids. But, we ALL had it better then the "black kids from Hartford" and we knew it. Most of us did our Confirmation hours in shelters in Hartford and kids with their parents, 99 percent of them black. No one can tell me that kids like this (or even minority kids substantially richer) have the same shot to succeed as I did or my friends did. AND I AM NOT, I repeat NOT RICH. By any stretch of the imagination.

    Typically, I am for affirmative action because education is certainly a way out of poverty, which makes for higher incomes for a whole subset of people as time marches forward. But this BRIDGE program sounds GREAT. It takes away a lot of the affirmative action problems...the greatest being "not admitting someone else"....the second greatest being "making sure the kid has the drive to stay in school and do well."

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    [QUOTE=AJPerg;2421238]As hard as I worked in High School to go to Wesleyan,

    (multiple after school clubs that I hated, just for the resume; volunteer work, tutoring, church work, sports, multiple KAPLAN classes to get a 1410 on my SAT (out of 1600), 780 on my Biology SAT II (out of 800), great scores on other tests after studying my ass off, graduating in the top 5 in my class,)

    I am typically for affirmative action in the larger sense, but I really really LOVE the idea of this bridge program.

    The truth is, not everyone has the same chance to succeed. My parents invested everything in my education, including their own time and tutoring and help, and were great. They were the reason I could go to a good school...yeah, I worked my ass off, but they were the reason I became who I was and they instilled a work ethic in me.

    Minorities in the inner city who are poor and who typically do poorly in High School usually DO NOT have one or more of the following:
    1) Parents who make sure their kids do well in school and do all their homework
    2) Parents who encourage their kids to do educational things or things to enrich their brain/learning power
    3) A father figure who teaches them the value of a work ethic and good grades
    4) Parents, plural, with a steady income to provide any educational help they might need

    Most of my friends are white and anywhere from lower middle class to middle middle class. I don't know any rich kids. But, we ALL had it better then the "black kids from Hartford" and we knew it. Most of us did our Confirmation hours in shelters in Hartford and kids with their parents, 99 percent of them black. No one can tell me that kids like this (or even minority kids substantially richer) have the same shot to succeed as I did or my friends did. AND I AM NOT, I repeat NOT RICH. By any stretch of the imagination.

    Typically, I am for affirmative action because education is certainly a way out of poverty, which makes for higher incomes for a whole subset of people as time marches forward. But this BRIDGE program sounds GREAT. It takes away a lot of the affirmative action problems...the greatest being "not admitting someone else"....the second greatest being "making sure the kid has the drive to stay in school and do well."[/QUOTE]

    So, the short version seems to be "Parants and Students have no responsabillity for their actions and future, so we'll let the State even the playing field". Well, that IS one way to look at it I suppose, I just acannot agree.

    It's so sad how little personal responsabillity we have left in our culture.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2421635]So, the short version seems to be "Parants and Students have no responsabillity for their actions and future, so we'll let the State even the playing field". Well, that IS one way to look at it I suppose, I just acannot agree.

    It's so sad how little personal responsabillity we have left in our culture.[/QUOTE]

    You got that from his post? You're silly...

    Well....I say "It's sad how little cultural responsibility we have left in our persons..."

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2421635]So, the short version seems to be "Parants and Students have no responsabillity for their actions and future, so we'll let the State even the playing field". Well, that IS one way to look at it I suppose, I just acannot agree.

    It's so sad how little personal responsabillity we have left in our culture.[/QUOTE]

    Maybe I'm interpreting your post wrongly, but,

    what I hoped people would get out of my post is,

    GOOD PARENTS instill a work ethic and provide an educationally conducive home (and its their responsibility to do so)...

    and

    KIDS RAISED BY GOOD PARENTS have what it takes to succeed because of that.

    Everyone's responsible for their actions. Everyone.

    When you have a poor family that doesn't give two Sh!ts about school because the mother works 2 crappy jobs and there's no father and no guidance around their home, how are those kids going to do well in school, even if they have an IQ equal to a kid much better off, with a home/parents more conducive to a good education?

    Dude, of course they have RESPONSIBILITY for their actions. OF COURSE! Its a blatant slap in the face for all those who try hard in high school that those kids just don't give a crap. Personally I hated those "types" who didn't care. (I didn't hate minorities).

    But, how long do we want that demographic to stay that way? This bridge program sounds like it will take the few who have found themselves and want to succeed, and, like education of this type, will start to bring that whole demographic UPWARDS so you don't keep having the same poverty situations. If a kid goes to college and does well, he gets a better job, lives in a different subset, and escapes the cycle.

    If enough escape the cycle, there's less Welfare and handouts that go to the subset.

  14. #14
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    [QUOTE=AJPerg;2421759]When you have a poor family that doesn't give two Sh!ts about school because the mother works 2 crappy jobs and there's no father and no guidance around their home, how are those kids going to do well in school, even if they have an IQ equal to a kid much better off, with a home/parents more conducive to a good education?

    Dude, of course they have RESPONSIBILITY for their actions. OF COURSE![/quote]

    Why are they poor? Who is responsable? Right, they are.

    Why does shw have to work 2 jobs? Who is responsable? Right, they are.

    Why is the Dad not around? Who is responsable? Right, they are.

    And why is the child provided a "no reponsabillity" card because of it? You're not actually telling me that a child in such a situation cannot succeed, are you? Or are you saying it's hard, so we should make it easier for them because they are minorities, whilst equally impoverished white kids get ****ed. Sorry son, your skins too pale, YOUR tough life, broken home and poverty aren't as meaningful or important.

    And you wonder why I take issue?

    [QUOTE=AJPerg;2421759]Its a blatant slap in the face for all those who try hard in high school that those kids just don't give a crap. [/QUOTE]

    No, a "blatant slap in the face" is watching someone get into a school you couldn't, with less grades, less activities and far lower test scores.....only because they are a minority.

    Interestingly enough, the one who did so ahead of me to my school of choice was from a far wealthier and more involved family.

    So you'll excuse me if I choose not to buy into the abject racism that is affirmative action, in ANY form. You can dress it up and try to make it sound moral, but what it is is socially approved racism.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2421834]Why are they poor? Who is responsable? Right, they are.

    Why does shw have to work 2 jobs? Who is responsable? Right, they are.

    Why is the Dad not around? Who is responsable? Right, they are.

    And why is the child provided a "no reponsabillity" card because of it? You're not actually telling me that a child in such a situation cannot succeed, are you? Or are you saying it's hard, so we should make it easier for them because they are minorities, whilst equally impoverished white kids get ****ed. Sorry son, your skins too pale, YOUR tough life, broken home and poverty aren't as meaningful or important.

    And you wonder why I take issue?



    No, a "blatant slap in the face" is watching someone get into a school you couldn't, with less grades, less activities and far lower test scores.....only because they are a minority.

    Interestingly enough, the one who did so ahead of me to my school of choice was from a far wealthier and more involved family.

    So you'll excuse me if I choose not to buy into the abject racism that is affirmative action, in ANY form. You can dress it up and try to make it sound moral, but what it is is socially approved racism.[/QUOTE]


    well, I do think you are going just a teensy weensy bit overboard, (by giving one vague example, you basically make it seem as though you are ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater).

    I do think these programs need to focus more on location and economic background of the kids it enrolls and not the ethnicity and religion.

    I have no problem giving poor people a break into school.

    Anyone who thinks that a child chooses for their mother to work two jobs, their father to take off on them, and to live in an area with a high crime rate, is just not really paying attention.

    To ignore these kids is to truly believe that the sins of the father should be repaid by the son.

    The idea of a performance based program that enables kids who didn't have all the same tools available to them that someone like me is a noble pursuit, and one we should look to change for the better, not abandon totally.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2421834]Why are they poor? Who is responsable? Right, they are.

    Why does shw have to work 2 jobs? Who is responsable? Right, they are.

    Why is the Dad not around? Who is responsable? Right, they are.

    And why is the child provided a "no reponsabillity" card because of it? You're not actually telling me that a child in such a situation cannot succeed, are you? Or are you saying it's hard, so we should make it easier for them because they are minorities, whilst equally impoverished white kids get ****ed. Sorry son, your skins too pale, YOUR tough life, broken home and poverty aren't as meaningful or important.

    And you wonder why I take issue?



    No, a "blatant slap in the face" is watching someone get into a school you couldn't, with less grades, less activities and far lower test scores.....only because they are a minority.

    Interestingly enough, the one who did so ahead of me to my school of choice was from a far wealthier and more involved family.

    So you'll excuse me if I choose not to buy into the abject racism that is affirmative action, in ANY form. You can dress it up and try to make it sound moral, but what it is is socially approved racism.[/QUOTE]


    Warfish, you're exactly right.

    I should have made this clearer.

    The reason I'm for it is not for the kid in the college (necessarily)

    but, its because its a way to raise (socio-economically) a subset of people, who otherwise would stay poor and keep receiving handouts.

    I HATE the fact that it means that less kids who earned it get in.

    I'm white, and could just have easily been refused admissions to Wesleyan because a minority kid who scored 300 points less on their SAT and put down like two things on their resume got in instead.

    I would have gone to UConn instead. I'm a rare case, because I actually would have done just as well at UConn, which has a (much) better music program.

    OK, but,

    Maybe I should be evaluating this on a "now/immediate" scale which says,

    in most cases of affirmative action, White kids like me get snubbed for less qualified minorities.

    If I were to just look at it like that, I would WHOLE HEARTEDLY agree with you.

    The only reason I slightly favor it, is because of the 20-30 year effect. Its a way out for a ton of people. Less handouts, better cities, more educated populace, less whining and crying by lazy people who feel they get shafted by the "man".

    OK, but, as the thread starter posited,

    There is now a "BRIDGE PROGRAM" that takes care of the main two problems: White kids not getting in, and Minorities who flunk out (who took the place of the white kids).

    I AM ALL FOR THAT. I'm actually not sure who'd be against THAT PROGRAM, while I'm sure there are tons of people who are against affirmative action. I KNOW I'm a rare case - a white kid who could have been snubbed, who's for affirmative action.

    I'm just trying to see the "macro." Maybe you're right, I'm giving the larger scheme too much importance. What do I know, I'm 23 years old, empowered by a keyboard.

    So, makes for good debate. Your points are definitely valid. I simply can't argue with your main points.
    Last edited by AJPerg; 03-09-2008 at 12:42 PM. Reason: forgot "got in instead."

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    Society cannot--or will not-- allow the citizenry to believe that there are differences in the cognitive skills among the sexes and the races, but there are.

    AJ Perg, you keep implying that it is the socioeconomic status of the black child that prevents him or her from suceeding in education but there is a plethora of data, study after study, that shows black students who come from a stable, nurturing home environment, where the parents earn a middle class income, still score lower on tests than there white and asian peers.

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    [QUOTE=Company_Man;2422463]Society cannot--or will not-- allow the citizenry to believe that there are differences in the cognitive skills among the sexes and the races, but there are.

    AJ Perg, you keep implying that it is the socioeconomic status of the black child that prevents him or her from suceeding in education but there is a plethora of data, study after study, that shows black students who come from a stable, nurturing home environment, where the parents earn a middle class income, still score lower on tests than there white and asian peers.[/QUOTE]

    This treads on uneasy ground.

    I don't doubt those test results. I've always "wondered," per se.

    So, I'll leave that alone. That, very possibly, could be true for however they're counting it. (Mode, Median, Average, whatever)

    To adjust what you're saying about my argument, I'll say its the socioeconomic status of the family [B]AND the Parents and their Parenting skills[/B]. Poor families who have great parents can be motivated and rise to be middle class. That's basically the story of my ancestors coming from Italy, and my parents.

    Many minority families have a mess of kids, no father figure, parents who are into questionable things (drugs come to mind). Many of these parents have really awful parenting skills. If you are a minority reading this and want to refute it, I can't tell you how many abuse cases have come through the auspices of my church with kids 18 and younger. They're from Hartford, and they're minorities. They are the urban poor.

    To extend my argument, in a poor family with questionable (to awful) parenting skills and possibly no father, a kid with the same IQ as me is not going to get to the same places I am. But, we've heard this ad nauseam now. I'm sure most of you are sick of hearing this. I'd also want to reiterate that I HATE the casualties of what was put in place as a program to move that echelon of society upward. (Like, the whites and asians who got snubbed). That F-ING SUCKS. There is no other word for it.

    I'm not sure what to say about the tests regarding the IQ. Perhaps its true.

    But my IQ is not especially high, and I did OK. Different offspring of the same mother will be equipped differently. There are (or have to be) Minorities with the same or better IQ as me and my white friends.

    So, definitely some good points raised here between you and Warfish and some others.

    Responsibility does come into play. The problem was bred by irresponsible, poor parents breeding by the thousands, living messy lives. Is it society's issue to resolve? Is it the government's issue to resolve? Because its certainly not fair to snub white or asian kids who deserve a place at a school. There's no easy answer...

    But, again, the bridge program sounds cool. That's the common ground here between me and people who disagree - It solves the two major problems, don't you think?

    (sorry that I keep writing novels as my answer - I'm bored today :O )

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    [QUOTE=AJPerg;2422513] To extend my argument, in a poor family with questionable (to awful) parenting skills and possibly no father, a kid with the same IQ as me is not going to get to the same places I am. [/QUOTE]

    But how many of them actually have the same IQ as you? That is the point. They don't. Maybe college isn't the answer.

    Why is the parenting "awful"? Could it be that the parent(s) have a low IQ?

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    strictly speaking this isn't affirmative action

    the University of Michigan is one of the nation's best universities, they are selling a total educational experience. That experience includes minorities.

    If UM (or CAl-Berkley, or MIT or Harvard or insert elite school here) was purely academic merit based admission it would be a campus of dweebs.

    the diversity is part of the experience.

    people get into school for all sorts of reasons. It's not all about grades. It's about 4 years of seasoning among a diverse and unique crowd. did Shawn Crable get into UM because of "affirmative action?" - if you made AA illegal tomorrow that wouldn't stop universities from taking the kids they want and ethnically shape their campus.

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