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Thread: Beware Dodger fans.

  1. #1
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    Beware Dodger fans.

    Everyone knows Joe Torre is my boy, but every knows he ruins bullpen arms.


    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/

    Saw this link on Buster Olney’s blog on ESPN.com. Luis Vizcaino is having problems with his elbow.

    It can’t possibly have anything to do with the career-high 77 appearances he had last season, can it?

    Joe Torre had two sets of relievers: Those who pitched in games it appeared the Yankees could win and those who pitched in games that appeared lost. Vizcaino was on the W Squad along with Mariano Rivera, Joba Chamberlain and occasionally Kyle Farnsworth. Scott Proctor was on the list until he got traded.

    The rest of the bullpen was on the L Squad, unless somebody needed a rest.

    Joe Girardi and Dave Eiland will try to balance the workload this season, an admirable goal. But the Steinbrenners, most fans and the media won’t have much tolerance for somebody like Jose Veras losing a game in the eighth inning if somebody better is available.

  2. #2
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    He must have some bad mechanics or something because 77 apperances isn't that huge of a workload. The dodgers had 3 relief pitchers with over 80 apperances last year.

    I'm not worried about it, Broxton, Biemel, and Proctor would consider that a light season.

  3. #3
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    Joe does get locked on certain relievers but in the same breath the young SP's in Florida were left a little worse for wear and tear after Girardi's stint there.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Ryan View Post
    Everyone knows Joe Torre is my boy, but every knows he ruins bullpen arms.


    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/
    he is forced to play the guys he believes in.....its not his fault he had like 2 of them.

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    I always wanted to see what Torre would do with a bullpen that had more then 2 quality relief arms (Non-Closers) at any given time. It always seemed like he was forced to abuse certain pitchers arms due to a lack of more quality options. This year he should have a bunch (Saito, Broxton, Proctor, Seanez, Beimel)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven0m View Post
    I always wanted to see what Torre would do with a bullpen that had more then 2 quality relief arms (Non-Closers) at any given time. It always seemed like he was forced to abuse certain pitchers arms due to a lack of more quality options. This year he should have a bunch (Saito, Broxton, Proctor, Seanez, Beimel)
    '96-00 John Wetteland, Mariano Rivera, Jeff Nelson, Mike Stanton, Ramiro Mendoza, Bob Wickman, Graeme Lloyd

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by K-Met57 View Post
    he is forced to play the guys he believes in.....its not his fault he had like 2 of them.
    Being a Mets fan how many Yankee games do you get a chance to watch a season?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Ryan View Post
    '96-00 John Wetteland, Mariano Rivera, Jeff Nelson, Mike Stanton, Ramiro Mendoza, Bob Wickman, Graeme Lloyd
    1996 -

    Wetteland 62 G / 63.7 IP
    Nelson 73 G / 74.3 IP
    Rivera 61 G / 107.7 IP
    Wickman 58 G / 79 IP

    1997 -

    Rivera 66 G / 71.7 IP
    Nelson 77 G / 78.7 IP

    Stanton 64 G / 66.7 IP
    Lloyd 46 G / 49 IP
    Boehringer 34 G / 48 IP
    ----
    Mendoza 39 G (15 GS) / 133.7 IP

    1998 -

    Rivera 54 G / 61.3 IP
    Stanton 67 G / 79 IP
    Lloyd 50 G / 37.7 IP
    Nelson 45 G / 40.3 IP
    Holmes 34 G / 51.3 IP
    ----
    Mendoza 41 G (14 GS) / 130.3 IP

    1999 -

    Rivera 66 G / 69 IP
    Stanton 73 G (1 GS) / 62.3 IP
    Grimsley 55 G / 75 IP

    Nelson 39 G / 30.3 IP
    Naulty 33 G / 49.3 IP
    Watson 21 G / 34.3 IP
    ----
    Mendoza 53 G (6 GS) / 123.7 IP

    2000 -

    Rivera - 66 G / 75.7 IP
    Nelson - 73 G / 69.7 IP

    Stanton - 69 G / 68 IP
    Grimsley - 63 G (4 GS) / 96.3 IP
    Choate - 22 G / 17 IP
    Gooden - 18 G (5 GS) / 64.3 IP

    For standard middle relievers, I underlined ones that I thought were situations that were approaching the max stress that I would put on their arms (70-80 G or 70-80 IP) and there were a decent amount of occurances. But there were few which I would definately label excess abuse (80+ G, 80+ IP), which I bolded.

    The one thing that was clear though is that from 96-00, there were only 2 cases that I would definately label pitcher abuse (Rivera 96, Grimsley 00), but from 01-07 there were 7 seperate cases that met the same requirements (Stanton 01, Karsay 02, Quantrill 04, Gordon 04, Gordon 05, Proctor 06, Villone 06). So yes, I would conclude that having more quality options in the bullpen helped lessen the abuse on each individual arm under Torre.

    (Now I excluded Mendoza because many of his innings were accumulated while starting with ample rest in between outings, or in multi-inning relief stints where he again likely had extra rest between outings. I don't believe that his arm was particuarly taxed more then your average starting pitcher would be there.)

  9. #9
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    Is Scott Proctor still with the Dodgers? If so, he knows what to expect.

  10. #10
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    Didn't Steinbrenner influence Torre? I thought he called the dugout on a somewhat regular basis.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by pauliec View Post
    Is Scott Proctor still with the Dodgers? If so, he knows what to expect.
    Yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by K-Met57 View Post
    he is forced to play the guys he believes in.....its not his fault he had like 2 of them.
    1. It is his fault that every year he finds 2 guys that he believes in from the pen and then doesn't ever use the other guys.

    2. It is his fault that he uses these guys not only in tight games, but also blowout games.

    Thankfully we don't have to deal with this crap anymore. Bullpen management is one of the most important things for a manager these days, and Torre was one of the worst out there.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven0m View Post
    I always wanted to see what Torre would do with a bullpen that had more then 2 quality relief arms (Non-Closers) at any given time. It always seemed like he was forced to abuse certain pitchers arms due to a lack of more quality options. This year he should have a bunch (Saito, Broxton, Proctor, Seanez, Beimel)
    Seanez won't be used ever. Proctor and Broxton are going to be abused.

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