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Thread: What a Billion Muslims Really Think (Psst - They don't hate us cause we are free)

  1. #1

    What a Billion Muslims Really Think (Psst - They don't hate us cause we are free)

    Told ya it was Foreign Policy:D

    A Book Americans Must Read Before Time Runs Out
    by Michael ScheuerWho Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think
    John L. Esposito and Dalia Mogahed
    Gallup Press, 2008
    230 pp.


    [QUOTE]A new book by John L. Esposito and Dalia Mogahed ought to have a profound and transforming influence on Americans' view of their government's confrontation with Islam. The book, Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think, presents the results of six years of Gallup polling in the Muslim world between 2001 and 2007.

    "With the random sampling method that Gallup used," the authors explain, "results are statistically valid with a plus or minus 3-point margin of error. In totality, we surveyed a sample representing more than 90% of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims, making this the largest, most comprehensive study of contemporary Muslims ever done" (xi).

    Based on this data, Esposito and Mogahed have determined that Washington's conflict with Islam is "more about policy than principle" (xi). The pivotal findings of this massive study for U.S. national security pertain to the motivation of the Muslims who oppose the United States and the authors' claim that "[o]ne of the most important insights provided by Gallup's data is that the issues that drive radicals are also issues for moderates" (93).


    "As we have seen in the [Gallup] data, resentment against the West comes from what Muslims perceive as the West's hatred and denigration of Islam; the Western belief that Arabs and Muslim are inferior; and their [Muslims'] fear of Western intervention, domination, or occupation" (141).

    "As our [Gallup's] data has demonstrated, the primary cause of broad-based anger and anti-Americanism is not a clash of civilizations but the perceived effect of U.S. foreign policy in the Muslim world" (156).

    "[The Gallup data shows that] contrary to what the 'They Hate Our Freedom' thesis might predict, Muslims do not recommend or insist upon changes to Western culture or social norms as the path to better [Western-Muslim] relations. Rather they call on the West to show greater respect for Islam, and they emphasize policy-related issues [U.S. interventionism; unqualified support for Israel; and protection for authoritarian Arab regimes]" (159).

    Over and over again, Esposito and Mogahed show the nearly complete absence among Muslims of a desire to destroy America's equality of opportunity, liberties, or democracy. Indeed, the Gallup data show that these are the aspects of U.S. society that Muslims most admire.

    "[T]he sentiments of vast majorities of those [Muslims] surveyed," the authors write, "[show] they admire the West's political freedoms and they value and desire greater self-determination" (31). But, of equal importance, Muslims do not believe that greater democracy and self-determination in the Muslim world require a Western-like separation of church and state. "Poll data show," Esposito and Mogahed explain, "that large majorities of respondents in the countries surveyed cite the equal importance of Islam and democracy as essential to the quality of their lives and the future progress of the Muslim world" (35).

    And, again, these findings are common to those the authors refer to as moderates and radicals, as well as to male and female respondents (48).

    The Gallup data also show that Muslims make a keen distinction between modernity and Westernization. The surveys found that Muslims have a profound respect and admiration for the West's technology and for its work ethic; both are regarded as tools of modernity and avenues of social and economic progress for Muslims (p. 97).

    Having presented this finding, however, the authors warn it must not be taken as eagerness for Westernization. "[W]hile acknowledging and admiring many aspects of Western democracy," the authors write," those [Muslims] surveyed do not favor wholesale adoption of Western models of democracy few respondents associate 'adopting Western values' with Muslim political and economic progress."

    Perhaps the most counterintuitive result of the Gallup data for Western readers will be findings that the ostensibly degraded cultural status of women in the West is one of the things most despised by Muslims of both genders (110) ; that "the data simply do not support the persistent popular perception in the West that Muslim women can't wait to be liberated from their culture and adopt the ways of the West" (110); and that there are no "systemic differences in many [Muslim] countries between males and females in their support for Sharia as the only source of legislation" (48).

    The work of Esposito and Mogahed establishes a solid empirical base for refuting the contentions of U.S. political leaders in both parties that "Muslims hate us for who we are not for what we do." But will it do the trick? Previously, Robert Pape's empirical study Dying to Win: The Logic of Suicide Terrorism demonstrated that U.S. intervention in the Muslim world is a key generator of suicide attacks on U.S. interests, and Marc Sageman's quantitative study Understanding Terror Networks politely shredded our leaders' claims that poverty, illiteracy, and unemployment cause terrorism but the they-hate-our-freedoms chorus still chants on.

    Indeed, after these books were written, Norman Podhoretz and George Weigel published neoconservative tomes that not only ignored the work of Pape and Sageman, but also scourged their countrymen for being too stupid to see that all U.S. interventions abroad are saintly and only medieval Islamofascists could oppose them. On no other foreign policy issue since the Cold War's end has the truth been so easy to establish on the basis of hard facts but so hard for Americans to see primarily because their leaders eagerly distort or ignore the truth.

    The reality accurately presented by Esposito, Mogahed, Pape, and Sageman as well as by Dr. Ron Paul has never eluded Osama bin Laden, however. Five years before Gallup even started collecting its data, bin Laden knew that U.S. foreign policy effectively united the Muslim world's moderates and radicals in anti-U.S. hatred, and that when he defied Washington and attacked U.S. interests because of those policies he both drew and grew support for his jihad against America.

    The conclusions of my own books about bin Laden's thinking, words, and actions which are largely corroborated by the findings of Who Speaks for Islam? make it clear beyond a doubt that al-Qaeda's chief knows precisely what will sell wildly in the Muslim world and unite his brethren, as well as what will be rejected outright by U.S. leaders, with disastrous consequences for Americans.

    Unfortunately, then, it seems unlikely that the fine book Who Speaks for Islam? will attract the attention, let alone change the mind, of any senior U.S. political leader. Under either party, Washington will maintain its now 40-year-old foreign policy status quo; it will keep intervening in the Muslim world; and it will continue telling Americans they are hated for who they are, not for what their government does.

    Ultimately, our bipartisan political elite will turn the United States into one enormous Israel, lethally deaf to the realities of our struggle with Islamists; arrogantly confidant of its pure intent and sure knowledge of God's will; and utterly dependent on inadequate military and intelligence options to fight a rising tide of hatred among 1.3 billion Muslims.[/QUOTE]

    [url]http://www.antiwar.com/scheuer/?articleid=12576[/url]

  2. #2
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    John Esposito is one of the biggest Islamic apologists out there. I know this first hand- I took one of his courses in college. Egomaniac, too.

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    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2449897]John Esposito is one of the biggest Islamic apologists out there. I know this first hand- I took one of his courses in college. Egomaniac, too.[/QUOTE]

    and they want to slaughter the Pope because they don't like bratwurst and sauerkraut...:rolleyes:

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    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY;2449899]and they want to slaughter the Pope because they don't like bratwurst and sauerkraut...:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    The big joke is was that he was present for only about half of the classes. Other times he was off on the lecture circuit and would run a video during the scheduled class time. Tuition dollars at work!

  5. #5
    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2449897][B]John Esposito is one of the biggest Islamic apologists out there[/B]. I know this first hand- I took one of his courses in college. Egomaniac, too.[/QUOTE]

    Says the Pro-Israel Campus Watch group.
    Honestly i havent read the book, as im sure CBNY has.

    So if hes an Islamic Apologist and an egomaniac,, why would one take his course??

  6. #6
    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY;2449899]and they want to slaughter the Pope because they don't like bratwurst and sauerkraut...:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    The majority of Muslims want to slaughter the Pope???
    Wow, I thought they only hated us for our freedoms. Now they want to kill the pope too??Jeez.

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    [QUOTE=kennyo7;2449914]Says the Pro-Israel Campus Watch group.
    Honestly i havent read the book, as im sure CBNY has.

    So if hes an Islamic Apologist and an egomaniac,, why would one take his course??[/QUOTE]

    of course I did not mention the author...just the recent "let's kill the Pope because we don't like Vatican City's foreign policy:rolleyes:" from the religion of peace....but why let that stand in your way....:shakehead

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    [QUOTE=kennyo7;2449914]Says the Pro-Israel Campus Watch group.
    Honestly i havent read the book, as im sure CBNY has.

    So if hes an Islamic Apologist and an egomaniac,, why would one take his course??[/QUOTE]
    To get another viewpoint, Kenny. Some of us don't follow only the Dailykos playbook. We listen to all sides and them render judgement. That is called an informed opinion.

  9. #9
    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2449928]To get another viewpoint, Kenny. Some of us don't follow only the Dailykos playbook. We listen to all sides and them render judgement. That is called an informed opinion.[/QUOTE]


    Yes, but when you enter a class with a preformed opinion of the professor and have already decided where you stand on the issue, you are not really "liistening to all sides and then rendering a judgement". Especially when you already follow the FOX News/National Review playbook

  10. #10
    Looks as though this book can assist in clearing up some of the conflation of issues on this subject.

    Refreshing to hear from the other side for a change also, vice hearing what FIX'd Noise and the other lying culprits of the MSM are spouting.

  11. #11
    So they want us to respect Islam, and abandon Israel. Oh, and keep buying their oil, but not question them in any form about anything else.

    I'm sorry, was there something new here, cause I'm not seeing it......

  12. #12
    The article posted was written by the CIA's Bin Laden Unit chief, Michael Scheuer, not by some "Muslim apologist." Some of you people would learn a lot if you read Scheuer's book "Imperial Hubris"

  13. #13
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2450866]So they want us to respect Islam, and abandon Israel. Oh, and keep buying their oil, but not question them in any form about anything else.

    I'm sorry, was there something new here, cause I'm not seeing it......[/QUOTE]


    [QUOTE]The Gallup data also show that Muslims make a keen distinction between modernity and Westernization. The surveys found that Muslims have a profound respect and admiration for the West's technology and for its work ethic; both are regarded as tools of modernity and avenues of social and economic progress for Muslims (p. 97).

    Having presented this finding, however, the authors warn it must not be taken as eagerness for Westernization. "[W]hile acknowledging and admiring many aspects of Western democracy," the authors write," those [Muslims] surveyed do not favor wholesale adoption of Western models of democracy few respondents associate 'adopting Western values' with Muslim political and economic progress."

    Perhaps the most counterintuitive result of the Gallup data for Western readers will be findings that the ostensibly degraded cultural status of women in the West is one of the things most despised by Muslims of both genders (110) ; that "the data simply do not support the persistent popular perception in the West that Muslim women can't wait to be liberated from their culture and adopt the ways of the West" (110); and that there are no "systemic differences in many [Muslim] countries between males and females in their support for Sharia as the only source of legislation" (48).[/QUOTE]

    I think that this is more in line with what they want. Again, they don't 'hate us cause we are free' as Rudy (big loser) stated in the FOX Noise debate

  14. #14
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg;2449454]Told ya it was Foreign Policy:D

    A Book Americans Must Read Before Time Runs Out
    by Michael ScheuerWho Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think
    John L. Esposito and Dalia Mogahed
    Gallup Press, 2008
    230 pp.




    [url]http://www.antiwar.com/scheuer/?articleid=12576[/url][/QUOTE]with all due respect.... blah blah blah...

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    [QUOTE=JetsCrazey;2450916]The article posted was written by the CIA's Bin Laden Unit chief, Michael Scheuer, not by some "Muslim apologist." Some of you people would learn a lot if you read Scheuer's book "Imperial Hubris"[/QUOTE]

    Was speaking of John Esposito.

  16. #16
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg;2451112]I think that this is more in line with what they want. Again, they don't 'hate us cause we are free' as Rudy (big loser) stated in the FOX Noise debate[/QUOTE]

    So, Rudy eh? The last place guy who's been out of the race for months now, and you're crowing that this article today means he's wrong?

    Well, kudos to you.

  17. #17
    It is just hard for me to think that anyone type of people in the world wakes up one day and hates you.

    To garner the type of hate that America has gathered from the Muslim/Arab community it has been something wrong for an extended period of time. To take extreme measures that have been used against us, it has to be more than just 'our way of life' that they hate.

    Maybe it is me, but I am convinced that it is more than that and apparantly others are now and the voices are being heard for a change. The internet has stopped the drowning out of voices and that is a good thing

    Rudy barked up the wrong tree with that one and he paid for it, dearly...

  18. #18
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    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2451126]Was speaking of John Esposito.[/QUOTE]

    I was too young, but ive heard the guy had a WICKED slapsot!?;)

  19. #19
    [QUOTE]Based on this data, Esposito and Mogahed have determined that Washington's conflict with Islam is "more about policy than principle" (xi). The pivotal findings of this massive study for U.S. national security pertain to the motivation of the Muslims who oppose the United States and the authors' claim that "[o]ne of the most important insights provided by Gallup's data is that the issues that drive radicals are also issues for moderates" (93).[/QUOTE]

    [QUOTE]"As we have seen in the [Gallup] data, resentment against the West comes from what Muslims perceive as the West's hatred and denigration of Islam; [B]the Western belief that Arabs and Muslim are inferior[/B]; and their [Muslims'] fear of Western intervention, domination, or occupation" (141).[/QUOTE]

    I wonder what question gave them this particular conclussion? Most Western countries are governed by law not caste, creed or religion. It's one thing to fear intervention and occupation because we have intervened and occupied but I don't really get the perception of the Wests hatred, denigration and belief that Arabs and Mulims are inferior when in fact Arab and Muslims in the West are treated under the laws of those countries as equals to everyone else. Maybe this perception which is clearly a lie is part of a propoganda campaign by radical clerics who derive their power through this perception? I would love to see the question and how it was asked and I wonder if women were asked in private?
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 03-26-2008 at 05:09 PM.

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg;2451162]It is just hard for me to think that anyone type of people in the world wakes up one day and hates you.

    [B]To garner the type of hate that America has gathered from the Muslim/Arab community it has been something wrong for an extended period of time. To take extreme measures that have been used against us, it has to be more than just 'our way of life' that they hate.[/B]

    Maybe it is me, but I am convinced that it is more than that and apparantly others are now and the voices are being heard for a change. The internet has stopped the drowning out of voices and that is a good thing

    Rudy barked up the wrong tree with that one and he paid for it, dearly...[/QUOTE]

    Maybe its not us. Maybe this sector of Islam that hates us, also hates the Brits and the Danes and Aussies and Indians and the Russians and Israel and the Amish and and and and and oh yeah and each other.

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