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Thread: The Real Barbarians

  1. #1
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    The Real Barbarians

    [url]http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/print.php?url=http://www.nypost.com/seven/04062008/postopinion/editorials/the_real_barbarians_105142.htm[/url]

    [QUOTE]THE REAL BARBARIANS



    April 6, 2008 -- Leftists may hope to smear Bush folks with a just-released 2003 memo that seems to OK "extreme measures" when questioning wartime detainees. But the document better points up the huge moral gap between America and its enemies.

    It also highlights the enormous political hurdles America faces in trying to defend itself from a cunning, ruthless foe.

    Penned by a then-high-ranking Justice official, John Yoo, the memo argued that citing wartime necessities might sometimes protect military interrogators from criminal prosecution and charges of violating international law.

    Which certainly seems arguable - given the morally unfettered nature of America's foes. Nonetheless, Justice rescinded the memo some months later.

    Officials made it all public last Tuesday, in response to demands from Democrats like Sens. Carl Levin (Mich.) and Patrick Leahy (Vt.) and the ACLU.

    That was but two days after the family of Army Staff Sgt. Keith "Matt" Maupin learned that his remains finally had been identified, four years after he was captured - and murdered - in Iraq.

    Maupin, all of 20 at the time, had been guarding a civilian convoy near Baghdad when he came under attack.

    A video later seemed to show Iraqi insurgents shooting him in the head and letting him fall into a shallow grave, but officials couldn't confirm it. So Maupin's family and friends in his hometown of Batavia, Ohio, held out hope.

    Just as the family of Sgt. Alex Jimenez, of Queens, still hopes for him.

    Jimenez's case is especially relevant - for government lawyers may have hampered efforts to track and rescue him after he was kidnapped last May.

    All told, they wasted some 10 hours debating whether Iraqi cellphone calls - which might have provided clues to Jimenez's whereabouts - could be tapped, since they traveled through US networks.

    It's not likely that Jimenez's kidnappers debated his Geneva Convention rights. Nor did those who slaughtered Sgt. Maupin, leaving his bones in the desert, pay much heed to international law.

    Meanwhile, what is it about that Justice memo that Democratic Sen. Joe Biden (Del.) says "shocks the conscience"?

    Hmm. Maybe its claim that "an interrogation method that might arguably cross the line drawn in one of the criminal statutes" might nonetheless be defensible in wartime as necessary to protect the nation.

    Or that "international law is not federal law" and the president might override it.

    Or perhaps: "Employing a shove or a slap [on a prisoner] would not run afoul" of legal requirements.

    What's truly shocking is that America could be debating whether to push and slap prisoners who may harbor critical life-saving information, even as its ruthless enemies kidnap US soldiers, shoot them in the head and leave them to rot.

    If this country is going to defeat terror, it's first going to have to win the war for common sense at home.[/QUOTE]

    The last sentence says it all. Common Sense. Something liberals sorely lack.

    They worry about head chopping savages getting water up their noses, when information gained from the procedure could save an American city from being nuked.
    They make The President of the US out to be a bigger terrorist than the savages shooting American POW's in the back of the head and dumping them in shallow graves.

    [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/nehick/campaign5.gif[/IMG]

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    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;2467432]
    The last sentence says it all. Common Sense. Something liberals sorely lack.

    They worry about head chopping savages getting water up their noses, when information gained from the procedure could save an American city from being nuked. [/QUOTE]

    Dean you want to talk about common sense?

    When or where has any terrorist had any real access to a nuke? Dreaming about nuclear devices and actually having one are two different things.

    Or are you talking about including world leaders like Kim Jong Il in the 'terrorist' label? What are you talking about? Specifically?

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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2467442]Dean you want to talk about common sense?

    When or where has any terrorist had any real access to a nuke? Dreaming about nuclear devices and actually having one are two different things.

    Or are you talking about including world leaders like Kim Jong Il in the 'terrorist' label? What are you talking about? Specifically?[/QUOTE]

    You don't think Al Qaeda is actively trying to aquire nukes or a dirty bomb?

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    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;2467444]You don't think Al Qaeda is actively trying to aquire nukes or a dirty bomb?[/QUOTE]

    Yeah and Im trying to lay selma hayek, let's see what happens first.

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    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;2467432] [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/nehick/campaign5.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

    You should be egging the 'terrists on to get a nuke. I mean...if they ever get one, chances are they would use it on a liberal-filled city like NYC or Boston or LA or San Francisco.

    Think of all the liberals that would be instantly vaporized!


    [IMG]http://www.justindauer.com/wp-content/homer-drool-702026.gif[/IMG]

    [B][SIZE="5"]MMM...Dead Liberals.[/SIZE][/B]

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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2467636]You should be egging the 'terrists on to get a nuke. I mean...if they ever get one, chances are they would use it on a liberal-filled city like NYC or Boston or LA or San Francisco.

    Think of all the liberals that would be instantly vaporized!


    [IMG]http://www.justindauer.com/wp-content/homer-drool-702026.gif[/IMG]

    [B][SIZE="5"]MMM...Dead Liberals.[/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]

    You've got a point there. But as much as I despise liberals, I'd hate to see the architecture and infrastructure of those cities destroyed.

    Maybe we can herd all the liberals onto an island and then let AQ nuke it...:yes:

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    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;2467690]You've got a point there. But as much as I despise liberals, I'd hate to see the architecture and infrastructure of those cities destroyed.

    Maybe we can herd all the liberals onto an island and then let AQ nuke it...:yes:[/QUOTE]

    Executing people who's only crime is having a different viewpoint.

    How very American. :rolleyes:
    Last edited by Sourceworx; 04-07-2008 at 12:12 PM.

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    If you think that intelligence agencies gain information on terrorist attacks from those they interrogate in prison cells you are sorely mistaken.

    Despite what you read in the media, the police have much other varied sources for their information.

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    [QUOTE=Black Death;2467725]If you think that intelligence agencies gain information on terrorist attacks from those they interrogate in prison cells you are sorely mistaken.

    Despite what you read in the media, the police have much other varied sources for their information.[/QUOTE]

    Are you kidding? Khalid Sheikh Mohammed lasted all of ten seconds when waterboarded, before he squealed like a school girl and revealed a treasure trove of information.

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    [QUOTE=sourceworx;2467721]Executing people who's only crime is having a different viewpoint.

    How very American. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    Ok I admit, I don't really want to see them nuked.

    But I do despise them....

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    [QUOTE=sourceworx;2467721]Executing people who's only crime is having a different viewpoint.
    [/QUOTE]

    That's our motto...

    [IMG]http://www.theodoresworld.net/pics/0507/Nahr_al_Bared_Palestinian_terrorist_camp.jpg[/IMG]

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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2467771]That's our motto...

    [IMG]http://www.theodoresworld.net/pics/0507/Nahr_al_Bared_Palestinian_terrorist_camp.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

    More like that's your hero.

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    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;2467859]More like that's your hero.[/QUOTE]

    Why would he be my hero? I'm not the one advocating the death of a large segment of the American population.

    Besides...everyone here knows how I feel about Middle Eastern morons. I was chastised for suggesting an "accident" involving a large quantity of anthrax over Iraqi airspace as a withdrawal plan for US troops. Dead Iraqis won't put up much of a fight, will they? Nobody would "follow us home" if they're dead.

    But I was wrong...but I have only seen one person here, besides me, chastise you for pining for dead Americans.

    I see where peoples loyalties are...more loyal to Iraqizoids than their fellow countrymen.

    HA! :D

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    Why start to think now? If it wasn't for CBTNY no one would agree with you. I still can't believe CBTNY agrees with half the things you say, I gave him too much credit.

    You are a fool, plain and simple.

    KSM's statements can't be used to prosecute anyone because of being tortured. KSM's statements are BS, he admitted to anything and everything that happend in the past. Didn't really help much did it.

    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;2467767]Ok I admit, I don't really want to see them nuked.

    But I do despise them....[/QUOTE]

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    [QUOTE=cr726;2468484]Why start to think now? If it wasn't for CBTNY no one would agree with you. I still can't believe CBTNY agrees with half the things you say, I gave him too much credit.

    You are a fool, plain and simple.

    KSM's statements can't be used to prosecute anyone because of being tortured. KSM's statements are BS, he admitted to anything and everything that happend in the past. Didn't really help much did it.[/QUOTE]

    According to intelligence sources, he spilled his guts.

    Aren't you a night watchman or something? How the hell would you know what he said?

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    Open your mind up enough to read this and then go back to your typical rightwing BS.

    [QUOTE][B]Why KSM's Confession Rings False[/B]

    Thursday, Mar. 15, 2007
    By Robert Baer
    It's hard to tell what the Pentagon's objective really is in releasing the transcript of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's confession. It certainly suggests the Administration is trying to blame KSM for al-Qaeda terrorism, leading us to believe we've caught the master terrorist and that al-Qaeda, and especially the ever-elusive bin Laden, is no longer a threat to the U.S.

    But there is a major flaw in that marketing strategy. On the face of it, KSM, as he is known inside the government, comes across as boasting, at times mentally unstable. It's also clear he is making things up. I'm told by people involved in the investigation that KSM was present during Wall Street Journal correspondent Danny Pearl's execution but was in fact not the person who killed him. There exists videotape footage of the execution that minimizes KSM's role. And if KSM did indeed exaggerate his role in the Pearl murder, it raises the question of just what else he has exaggerated, or outright fabricated.

    Just as importantly, there is an absence of collateral evidence that would support KSM's story. KSM claims he was "responsible for the 9/11 operation from A-Z." Yet he has omitted details that would support his role. For instance, one of the more intriguing mysteries is who recruited and vetted the fifteen Saudi hijackers, the so-called "muscle." The well-founded suspicion is that Qaeda was running a cell inside the Kingdom that spotted these young men and forwarded them to al-Qaeda. KSM and al-Qaeda often appear bumbling, but they would never have accepted recruits they couldn't count on. KSM does not offer us an answer as to how this worked.

    KSM has also not offered evidence of state support to al-Qaeda, though there is good evidence there was, even at a low level. KSM himself was harbored by a member of Qatar's royal family after he was indicted in the U.S. for the Bojinka plot a plan to bomb twelve American airplanes over the Pacific. KSM and al-Qaeda also received aid from supporters in Pakistan, quite possibly from sympathizers in the Pakistani intelligence service. KSM provides no details that would suggest we are getting the full story from him.

    Although he claims to have been al-Qaeda's foreign operations chief, he has offered no information about European networks. Today, dozens of investigations are going on in Great Britain surrounding the London tube bombings on July 7, 2005. Yet KSM apparently knew nothing about these networks or has not told his interrogators about them.

    The fact is al-Qaeda is too smart to put all of its eggs in one basket. It has not and does not have a field commander, the role KSM has arrogated. It works on the basis of "weak links," mounting terrorist operations by bringing in people on an ad hoc basis, and immediately disbanding the group afterwards.

    Until we hear more, the mystery of who KSM is and what he was responsible for is still a mystery.

    Robert Baer, a former CIA field officer assigned to the Middle East, is the author of See No Evil and, most recently, the novel Blow the House Down

    Click to Print Find this article at:
    [url]http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1599861,00.html[/url] [/QUOTE]


    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;2468720]According to intelligence sources, he spilled his guts.

    Aren't you a night watchman or something? How the hell would you know what he said?[/QUOTE]

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    Reading this thread brings back sad memories of an incident I was later involved in.

    Afew weeks after Zarqawi was killed, Army Privates Kristian Menchaca and Thomas Tucker were captured after an ambush in Iraq in 2006.

    The DoD decided to pool all US security and military assets around the world in an effort to find them before it was too late. It was a mad race to find them, but the inevitable outcome was obvious to everyone.

    About a week later, their butchered remains were found dismembered and IED's placed between their remains. I will spare readers the details, but needless to say, the most brutal horrors were inflicted upon them when alive and after their deaths.


    I felt no remorse, nor any sense of morality when a few months later, we nailed their torturer and executioner and his cell in an airstrike that flattened his hideout with a 1,000lb bomb. At the time, I wished it had been Napalm or a Fuel Air Explosive as the ordinance of choice.

    Did this event create a sense of moral equivalency for me? No. I never believed that creating an artificially hostile environment for a prisoner was comparable to the barbarities inflicted on our men by the enemy.

    Did I believe it brought my fellow Soldiers and Marines and their families a sense of closure? Some, but the anger and disappointment that we could not save them from their fate, picturing them that up until the last second of their lives they were awaiting salvation that would not come festered in me.

    Did I believe it brought closure for me? Absolutely. Sometimes, when one has seen the worst in humanity, fought it and used its own methods to conquer it, vengeance can provide its own comfort.

    I also knew before then that vengeance for its own sake is a serious danger to people; it becomes an abdication of responsibility and justice and an excuse for excess.

    But I still find myself occasionally reflecting on those two soldiers, their fates and those choatic days which tested my values and, at times, my faith.

    RIP Privates Menchaca and Tucker.

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    Great post.

    [QUOTE=Equilibrium;2469025]Reading this thread brings back sad memories of an incident I was later involved in.

    Afew weeks after Zarqawi was killed, Army Privates Kristian Menchaca and Thomas Tucker were captured after an ambush in Iraq in 2006.

    The DoD decided to pool all US security and military assets around the world in an effort to find them before it was too late. It was a mad race to find them, but the inevitable outcome was obvious to everyone.

    About a week later, their butchered remains were found dismembered and IED's placed between their remains. I will spare readers the details, but needless to say, the most brutal horrors were inflicted upon them when alive and after their deaths.


    I felt no remorse, nor any sense of morality when a few months later, we nailed their torturer and executioner and his cell in an airstrike that flattened his hideout with a 1,000lb bomb. At the time, I wished it had been Napalm or a Fuel Air Explosive as the ordinance of choice.

    Did this event create a sense of moral equivalency for me? No. I never believed that creating an artificially hostile environment for a prisoner was comparable to the barbarities inflicted on our men by the enemy.

    Did I believe it brought my fellow Soldiers and Marines and their families a sense of closure? Some, but the anger and disappointment that we could not save them from their fate, picturing them that up until the last second of their lives they were awaiting salvation that would not come festered in me.

    Did I believe it brought closure for me? Absolutely. Sometimes, when one has seen the worst in humanity, fought it and used its own methods to conquer it, vengeance can provide its own comfort.

    I also knew before then that vengeance for its own sake is a serious danger to people; it becomes an abdication of responsibility and justice and an excuse for excess.

    But I still find myself occasionally reflecting on those two soldiers, their fates and those choatic days which tested my values and, at times, my faith.

    RIP Privates Menchaca and Tucker.[/QUOTE]

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    If our Gov't is so worried about Terror Attacks then why are our borders such a joke ?? You would think that would have been the first order of Business to SECURE THE BORDERS but after 7 years it has still not been addressed. This being a fact where are all the terrorists that are supposed to be attacking us here at home ? Has there been even one single attack since 9-11 ?

    They had us by the balls after they destroyed the WTC, you would think a few bombs in shopping malls across the country would have been pretty easy to pull off and bring this country to its knees but that never happened. I sometimes wonder why. If you want to think common sense whats wrong with this entire situation ? Everything you would think should have been done, common sense wise, has not been done so WTF is going on ?

    17 of the 19 so called Jumbo Jet Pilots were from Saudi Arabia yet we attacked Iraq and Afganistan. While attacking Afganistan we Allowed about 80 % of the Taliban to escape into Pakistan and that was a brillinat Idea since they do have Nukes that can do damage if they get into the wrong hands . Once again a tremendous blunder by the USA. Are we trying to **** this Up ? Are we this ****ing stupid ?
    Last edited by Smashmouth; 04-08-2008 at 01:32 AM.

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