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Thread: Atheism and its scientific pretensions

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    Atheism and its scientific pretensions

    David Berlinski {Secular, Jewish, Agnostic} wrote an interesting new book titled [B]The Devils Delusion,[/B] [COLOR="Red"]Atheism and its scientific pretensions[/COLOR]

    I point out his heritage and faith only because I know some Atheists and most Darwiniacs love to automatically dismiss anyone who dares question their dogma as the dreaded FC .. as in, oh he must be a Fundementalist Christian!

    However he is not the bogeyman {i.e. FC,} he is a professor, a mathematician, an intellectual, a man of science, an agnostic, and many other things, but a fundementalist Christian is not one of them {sorry to disappoint the Atheists/Christaphobes in the house}, so in this case you'll have to find another reason to kill the messenger

    Anyhow, Berlinski gave an interesting lecture over the weekend followed by an engaging Q&A, below is the link if you care to watch it, though you must have [B][B]Real Player[/B][/B] or the link is useless

    [URL]rtsp://video.c-span.org/archive/arc_btv/btv040508_david.rm[/URL]
    Last edited by Green Jets & Ham; 04-07-2008 at 12:30 PM.

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    Has anyone here professed Atheism? I could be wrong, but it seems most people here without religion are agnostic.

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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;2467731]I know some Atheists and most Darwiniacs love to automatically dismiss anyone who dares question their [B]Junk Science[/B] as the dreaded FC .. as in, oh he must be a Fundementalist Christian!

    However he is not the bogeyman {i.e. FC,} he is a professor, a mathematician, an intellectual, a man of science, an agnostic, and many other things, but a fundementalist Christian is not one of them {sorry to disappoint the Atheists/Christaphobes in the house}, so in this case you'll have to find another reason to kill the messenger[/QUOTE]

    Wow, an awful lot of broad generalizations and denouncements in this post. For someone who utterly demands tolerance of your beliefs, you sure are aggressive in dounouncing the beliefs of others. Reminds me of another poster we all know...

    A Quick Check of Wikipedia on your boy:

    [QUOTE=Wikipedia]David Berlinski (born 1942 in New York City) is an educator and author of popular books on mathematics. He is a leading proponent of intelligent design, critic of evolution and author of numerous articles on the topic.[1]

    He received his Ph.D. in philosophy from Princeton University[3] and was later a postdoctoral fellow in mathematics and molecular biology at Columbia University. He has taught philosophy, mathematics, and English at Stanford, Rutgers, the City University of New York, the University of Washington, the University of Puget Sound, San Jose State University, the University of Santa Clara, the University of San Francisco, and San Francisco State University. He has also taught mathematics at the Université de Paris.

    Intelligent design
    An outspoken critic of evolution, Berlinski is a Fellow of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture, a Seattle-based think-tank that is hub of the intelligent design movement. The scientific community, however, regards intelligent design as pseudoscience.[4] The ruling in the 2005 Dover case held that intelligent design is a form of creationism[5] and that the intelligent design movement is a political rather than scientific movement. Berlinski is a scathing critic of "Darwinism", the term used in the Discovery Institute intelligent design campaigns for evolution.[6]

    Though the Discovery Institute portrays Berlinski as a scholarly writer and "mathematician,"[7] Mark Perakh, a critic of the intelligent design movement, contends that Berlinski's writings are not scientific, but popular, and that Berlinski "has no known record of his own contribution to the development of mathematics or of any other science."[8]

    Berlinski, along with fellow Discovery Institute associates Michael Behe and William A. Dembski, tutored Ann Coulter on science and evolution for her book Godless: The Church of Liberalism.[9] Approximately one-third of the book is devoted to polemical attacks on evolution, which Coulter, as Berlinski often does, terms "Darwinism".

    Berlinski was a longtime friend of the late Marcel-Paul Schützenberger (1920-1996), with whom he collaborated on an unfinished and unpublished mathematical polemic that he described as being "devoted to the Darwinian theory of evolution."[10] Berlinski dedicated The Advent of the Algorithm to Schutzenberger.

    In a 2006 DVD, Berlinski made the statement:[11]

    The interesting argument about the whale, which is a mammal after all, is that if its origins where[sic] land-based originally…what do you have to do from an engineering point of view to change a cow into a whale?...Virtually every feature of the cow has to change, has to be adapted.

    As a number of scientists have pointed out, whales evolved, not from cattle, but from pakicetids, hoofed carnivores.[12][13]

    [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berlinski[/url][/QUOTE]

    And on his employer, the Discovery Institute:

    [QUOTE=Wikipedia]The Discovery Institute is a think tank based in Seattle, Washington, best known for its advocacy of intelligent design and its Teach the Controversy campaign to teach creationist anti-evolution beliefs in United States public high school science courses.[1][2][3][4][5] A federal court, along with the majority of scientific organizations, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science, say the Institute has manufactured the controversy they want to teach by promoting a false perception that evolution is "a theory in crisis," through incorrectly claiming that it is the subject of wide controversy and debate within the scientific community.[6][7][8] A federal court recently ruled that the Discovery Institute pursues "demonstrably religious, cultural, and legal missions",[9] and the institute's manifesto, the Wedge strategy, describes a religious goal: to "reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions."[10][11]

    [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_Institute[/url][/QUOTE]
    Last edited by Warfish; 04-07-2008 at 12:39 PM.

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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;2467731]{sorry to disappoint the Atheists/Christaphobes in the house} [/QUOTE]

    No problem, Athei-a-phobe...:P

    [QUOTE=OrangeJet]Has anyone here professed Atheism? I could be wrong, but it seems most people here without religion are agnostic[/QUOTE]

    I'm an atheist. We have no representation in government. :D

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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2467788]No problem, Athei-a-phobe...:P



    I'm an atheist. We have no representation in government. :D[/QUOTE]

    As usual...I'm wrong.

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    [QUOTE=OrangeJet;2467748]

    Has anyone here professed Atheism? I could be wrong, but it seems most people here without religion are agnostic.[/QUOTE]Two Years ago we had a great debate in this forum about Darwinism

    Well you should have seen how the Darwiniacs reacted, hysterical, as if their faith was being called into question, which of course it was though you can hardly get them to ackowledge it .. but the level of indignance was comical

    As is usually the case, they tried to paint anyone who would dare question their Junk Science theory as a flat-earth kook who simply rejects science as a whole, which of course is utter nonsense, but some Darwiniacs really believe it, so fierecely loyal are they to their faith

    So occasionally a thread like this one is essential, if only to knock some sense into the Darwiniacs and remind them that this debate is not about science verses flat-earth as they love to portray it if only to make themsleves feel superior, but rather [B]scientific dogma[/B] verses [B]scientific inquiry[/B], something they apprently fear even more than the mere mention of GOD

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2467776]

    Wow, an awful lot of broad generalizations and denouncements in this post. For someone who utterly demands tolerance of your beliefs, you sure are aggressive in dounouncing the beliefs of others. Reminds me of another poster we all know...[/QUOTE]And so maybe [B]you wish to ban me too[/B] because I don't leave the stage to the atheists and darwiniacs

    Is that what you prefer, no debate at all, just let the atheists and darwiniacs hog the public sqaure?

    That doesn't sound very tolerant, or democratic
    Last edited by Green Jets & Ham; 04-07-2008 at 12:55 PM.

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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;2467794]As is usually the case, they tried to paint anyone who would dare question their Junk Science theory as a flat-earth kook who simply rejects science as a whole, which of course is utter nonsense, but some Darwiniacs really believe it, so fierecely loyal are they to their faith[/QUOTE]

    Which is exactly what creationists do when questioned about THEIR beliefs..."so fiercely loyal".

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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2467788]

    No problem, Athei-a-phobe...:P

    I'm an atheist. We have no representation in government. :D[/QUOTE]Not true, not anymore, you have at least one in the congress who admits it, Pete Stark, and probably many more who don't share Pete's backbone ;)

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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2467801]

    Which is exactly what creationists do when questioned about THEIR beliefs..."so fiercely loyal".[/QUOTE]Exactly, but we don't hide behind the phony cloak of science, we call a spade a spade, or in this case we call a faith a faith .. not so the darwiniacs, they insist on selling their dogma as science, and they resist all serious inquiry

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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;2467800]And so maybe you wish to ban me too because I don't leave the stage to the atheists and darwiniacs

    Is that what you prefer, no debate at all, just let the atheists and darwiniacs hog the public sqaure?

    That doesn't sound very tolerant[/QUOTE]

    Why would I? I don't ban people for simply disagreeing with me....

    You can post all day long on creationism if you wish. A Thousand threads if you desire. I certainly won't stop you. But nor will I waste any further time on you.

    And for the record, no one paints you, and your ilk Bernie, into any corners.

    You do just fine on that front yourself.

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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;2467814]Exactly, but we don't hide behind the phony cloak of science, we call a spade a spade, or in this case we call a faith a faith .. not so the darwiniacs, they insist on selling their dogma as science, and they resist all serious inquiry[/QUOTE]

    That is simply not true. There is very little science involved in faith. When science is presented in faith, I can all but guarantee the darwiniacs will take it into account.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2467821]

    Why would I? I don't ban people for simply disagreeing with me....[/QUOTE]And whom have I banned in this forum for disagreeing with me?

    Is there an atheist in this forum I have banned for expressing that point of view?

    If there is, please name him or would that atheist please step forward?

    Thank You

    And this criticism is coming from someone who admittedly wants to ban a specific poster who expresses a particular religious POV you find objectionable .. so I asked the question, would you like to ban me as well?

    Fair question considering you admit to wanting to ban said poster and immediately placed me in that same category
    Last edited by Green Jets & Ham; 04-07-2008 at 01:05 PM.

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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;2467828]And whom have I banned in this forum for disagreeing with me?

    Is there an atheist in this forum I have banned for expressing that point of view?

    If there is, please name him or would that atheist please step forward?

    Thank You[/QUOTE]

    Who said that?

    You brought UP the topic of banning in the first place in this thread ("so maybe you wish to ban me too"), and now you're assuming I meant YOU would ban people for disagreeing with you when I said no such thing.

    You aksed if I wanted to ban you, and I said I do not ban people for disagreeing with me. End of story.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2467845]

    Who said that?

    You brought UP the topic of banning in the first place in this thread ("so maybe you wish to ban me too"), and now you're assuming I meant YOU would ban people for disagreeing with you when I said no such thing.

    You aksed if I wanted to ban you, and I said I do not ban people for disagreeing with me. End of story.[/QUOTE]Again, your desire to ban a certain poster is on record, because you find his particular religious POV so objectionable and/or offensive, then you proceeded to compare me to said poster .. in light of that I think the obvious and fair question is do you believe I should be banned as well, since me and said poster are so much alike, and since you clearly do believe said poster should indeed be banned

    It was a fair question, war, and I thank you for your response .. at least I know I'm safe :D

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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;2467800]And so maybe [B]you wish to ban me too[/B] because I don't leave the stage to the atheists and darwiniacs

    Is that what you prefer, no debate at all, just let the atheists and darwiniacs hog the public sqaure?

    That doesn't sound very tolerant, or democratic[/QUOTE]

    You're one hell of a hypocrite.

    Didn't you ban me a couple weeks ago for disagreeing with you? And dont throw around the b.s that I attacked you. You threw insults around and when I responded in kind.....banned.

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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;2467814]Exactly, but we don't hide behind the phony cloak of science...[/QUOTE]

    And creationists hide behind the phoney cloak of the bible.

    All day. We can go.

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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;2467794]

    As is usually the case, they tried to paint anyone who would dare question their Junk Science theory as a flat-earth kook who simply rejects science as a whole, which of course is utter nonsense, but some Darwiniacs really believe it, so fierecely loyal are they to their faith

    [/QUOTE]

    Junk science? are you serious? Do you actually think that whats in the bible is more accurate than the conclusion scientists have come up with in the last 100 years?

    all I can say is wow

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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;2467814]Exactly, but we don't hide behind the phony cloak of science, we call a spade a spade, or in this case we call a faith a faith .. not so the darwiniacs, they insist on selling their dogma as science, and they resist all serious inquiry[/QUOTE]

    I see it exactly the opposite. You want to have faith tought as a science and you justify it by calling an area of science a faith.

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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;2467828]And whom have I banned in this forum for disagreeing with me?

    Is there an atheist in this forum I have banned for expressing that point of view?

    If there is, please name him or would that atheist please step forward?

    Thank You

    And this criticism is coming from someone who admittedly wants to ban a specific poster who expresses a particular religious POV you find objectionable .. so I asked the question, would you like to ban me as well?

    Fair question considering you admit to wanting to ban said poster and immediately placed me in that same category[/QUOTE]

    You have banned me for disagreeing with you.

    You also made personal attacks, which I responded to I admit. But I guess your skin is too thin. You can easily dish it out but you definately can't take it.

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